The Israeli Lobby - Too Powerful!

Originally posted by December_Rain
No lobby is feared more or catered to by politicians than the Israeli lobby. If a politician does not play ball with the Israeli Lobby, he will not get elected, or re-elected, and he will either be smeared or ignored by the Israeli/ Jewish owned major media.

Too bad frothing at the mouth conspiracists are more anxious to blame Israel then they are getting to the roots of conflicting American interests in the Middle East.

It's amusing how the Bush admin were the worst Saudi ass-kissers and how the conspiracists line up to follow suit. Every forthright and not bought off politician and journalist knows the score in Washington. The Saudis dictate the balance of power in the Middle East. Who stays and who goes.

Israel is a convenient deflection for the stranglehold the Saudis have maintained on succeeding US administrations.

Anti-Israeli conspiracists, maybe just simple minded Jew haters, give the Saudis a free pass at every opportunity. They don't even want to talk about them.

Insight from sources that actually look at all factors and players is useful

brainmind.com...

it was recognized that OPEC oil production would not
begin to peak until well after the year 2010. Strategically, this means
that OPEC nations would become stronger, and the non-OPEC
nations would become weaker, such that, at some “cross-over event”
the balance of power might shift.

This is one of the main reasons why the U.S. has attributed so much importance to dominating this region, and maintaining a positive
relationship with Saudi Arabia in particular. Indeed, the strategic
importance of the oil-producing Gulf-states and Saudi Arabia was
recognized even before 1950.

In the 1970s, there were two superpowers: the U.S. and the
Soviet Union. Both were struggling to gain or maintain influence
in the Middle East and among the Gulf states. Libya, Egypt, and
Iraq were in the Russian corner. Moreover, the incredibly oil-rich,
albeit undeveloped regions of Central Asia and the Caspian basin
were part of the Soviet Union.

In the 1970s, it was recognized that in the future, who ever
controlled and developed the oil resources of the Caspian basin
and Central Asia, as well as that of Saudi Arabia and Iraq, would
also have a strangle hold, not just on India and China, but the world.
Those who established this control would also become wealthy
beyond their dreams.

By the late 1970s, one of the keys to gaining access to the
oil-rich central Asian states, was Afghanistan. If these states were
to be destabilized and stripped away from the Soviet Union, then
Afghanistan, with its Soviet-backed government, would have to be
torn lose first. Before and after Afghanistan fell, terrorist attacks
would be launched into the underbelly of the Soviet Union (14).
Afghanistan was also a key, because Afghanistan offered the
best route for an oil pipeline—a pipeline that would pump the oil
extracted from the central Asian states, across Afghanistan, to
Pakistan, and thus to the world markets via the Arabian sea.

However, in order for western oil companies and the CIA to
accomplish this, required Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as a partner.
The willingness to involve Saudi Arabia was strategic and
based on political reality. If the ruling families of Saudi Arabia
were not promised a huge piece of the central Asian pie, they would
refuse to cooperate in any destabilizing attacks on the Soviet Union.
As Saudi Arabia was also a major source of funds to Pakistan and
its ISI, if Saudi Arabia were not part of the equation, Pakistan too
would refuse to cooperate, and might even align itself with the
Soviet Union.

The Saudis were willing to cooperate for a number of reasons,
including those related to the spread of the Islamic religion,
and the creation of an Islamic superstate, and because they wished
to retain their power. If America alone won the central Asia oil
“prize” the Saudis would lose the power of oil and their ability to
effect the world economy by turning the oil spigot on or off.

Likewise, given that Saudi Arabia has the world’s largest oil
reserves, they key to controlling the world’s economy, and thus the
world, required a partnership with the Saudi kingdom. Moreover,
without Saudi help and Saudi funding, it would have been impossible
for the CIA and the Wall Street elite, to destabilize or significantly
influence those Middle Eastern states, such as Libya, Egypt,
Iraq, and Afghanistan, which, in the 1970s, were in the corner of
the Soviet Union.

Also here is a transcript of debate on book The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy:

Do go thru it it has some hard hitting questions in it directed at the panel from the audience.

These are the members of Panels who debated on this issue:

Our first panelist, Shlomo Ben-Ami who is a former Israeli Foreign and Security Minister and the author of Scars of War.
(Applause)

Our second panelist, Martin Indyk, who is the Director of the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, Senior Fellow in Foreign Policy Studies at Brookings.
(Applause)

Tony Judt who is Erich Maria Remarque Professor in European Studies and Director of the Remarque Institute at New York University.
(Applause)

John Rashid Khalidi is the Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies and Director of the Middle East Institute.
(Applause)

John Mearsheimer is the R. Wendell Harrison Distiguished Service Professor of Political Science.
(Applause)

Dennis Ross is the counselor and Ziegler Distinguished Fellow of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
(Applause)

I will list few of the questions here asked by the audience to the panelists.

QUESTION: I have question for Rashid Khalidi. You’ve said that the influence of the lobby is in fact far greater than John Mearsheimer claims. Your argument reminds me of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a book.

(Shouting. Booing)

All you people here who believe in freedom of speech will allow me to finish… please allow me to ask my question. It is a question. The Protocols of the Elder of Zion, a book very popular in Muslim countries, how would you distinguish your views? How great is the Jewish domination of America?

AUDIENCE: My question is for John Mearsheimer. I want to put an argument and going to respond to it, if that’s okay.

The argument that I feel hasn’t been addressed and I want you to respond to it, is that many people — some people — feel as if, you know, yes, Israeli and American policy is harmful to Palestinians. Obviously it’s terrible. But they don’t blame that on the lobby, they blame that on the government and they say they say that there are alternative reasons for the support of these policies, which is simply that the US favors an Israeli Sparta which is very militarized. It’s an offshoot of the American economy, you know, it’s a local police office… so I want you to respond to that and also can you point to examples where the Lobby has stood up to the administration on the important issues like selling military technology to China, and it has not fallen in line?


AUDIENCE: My question is for professor Mearsheimer. On page 147 of the 9/11 Commission Report it states that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed masterminded 9/11, says he attacked us because of our biased foreign policy favoring Israel, so my question is: given the stranglehold of the Lobby on the politicians and the media, is it ever going to be possible to have an even-handed policy towards the Palestinians and the Israelis?

AUDIENCE: First I want to say that according to JJ Goldberg, in his book "Jewish Power," he is the current editor of the Forward Jewish Weekly, he states, with footnotes, that 45% of the Jewish PAC money funds to Democratic Party for the national elections, meaning, congressional, US Senate and the presidency and 25% of the Jewish PAC money is funded for the Republican Party. How can you say that Israel is not a domestic issue, and that’s to Dennis Ross?

AUDIENCE: I’d like to ask this question of Tony. Since Israel has the same GDP per person as Spain and South Korea why are we giving them any money at all? (Applause) And since Israel is widely reported to have 200 nuclear weapons why is it in our interest (Applause) to have the United States vetoing proposals in the UN to discuss that subject, particularly in that all of the you seem to agree that the United States, Israel, and Iran are a central topic?

AUDIENCE: Two questions. Number one: What would happen if Egypt or Jordan or any other country in the Middle East mounted the scale of espionage operations that are now going on through the Mossad? That’s number one. Number two: Don’t you feel that one of the factors in the drift towards war is the growing British influence in this country?

The complete transcript of the debate:

The following transcript is from “The Israel Lobby: Does it Have Too Much Influence on US Foreign Policy?” The debate was conducted by the London Review of Books and filmed by ScribeMedia.org.

www.scribemedia.org...

I enjoyed reading the whole debate and hope you guys too. There is also a video clip of the debate if interested on the link.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by December_Rain]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by December_Rain]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by December_Rain]

Also interesting thing about above debate is hardly any US MSM covered it, the book was also published in London as USA does not allow to question any Israeli related policies. The below comment sums it up perfectly.

All other lobbies in the US can be openly discussed and criticized. Not so for the extremely powerful Israel lobby, lest you be instantly torpedoed as being anti-semitic. Information about it is completely suppressed, and the American public is kept in crass ignorance. Practically no US congressman dares to question Israeli policy.

The USA's total, blind support of Israel is the result.And this is the main cause for anti-US terrorism-including 9/11. I strongly believe this is contrary to the interest of US.

Originally posted by December_Rain
Also interesting thing about above debate is hardly any US MSM covered it, the book was also published in London as USA does not allow to question any Israeli related policies. The below comment sums it up perfectly.

All other lobbies in the US can be openly discussed and criticized. Not so for the extremely powerful Israel lobby, lest you be instantly torpedoed as being anti-semitic. Information about it is completely suppressed, and the American public is kept in crass ignorance. Practically no US congressman dares to question Israeli policy.

The USA's total, blind support of Israel is the result.And this is the main cause for anti-US terrorism-including 9/11. I strongly believe this is contrary to the interest of US.

Hardly any MSM? Absolutely nothing could be further from the facts. A quick flick on Google shows the enormous volume of American coverage and reviews. The authors are frequently quoted, interviewed, do guest speakings, etc.

The book itself is unequivocally MSM. Check out the sales figure.

And one unsourced quote you truly want consider authoritative is supposed to be anything other than a second-hand opinion?

How about this one?

www.forward.com...

Europe Is Not Impressed by Walt and Mearsheimer

Eric Frey - managing editor - Vienna daily "Der Standard"

Last week John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt came here to Vienna, as well as to Frankfurt and Berlin, to promote the German-language version of their controversial book “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.” The two American academics had reason to expect a warmer reception than they had received back home, and true to expectations they filled lecture halls in all three cities, and bookshops are reporting brisk sales of their oeuvre.

But it may surprise some to hear that the reception Mearsheimer and Walt received was far from uniformly sympathetic. Indeed, more than a few book reviewers were nearly as harsh on the strange academic couple and their conspiratorial thesis as their American counterparts were when the book first came out.

I recommend doing you homework from multiple sources with less of an agenda.


[edit on 14-12-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


That is correct, hardly any mention in US MSM. Rare news coverage etc. on such a powerful subject relating to US foreign policy. By the way your link is from "The Jewish Daily" (hardly can be called a mainstream MSM when it says Online Home of the Weekly Forward newspaper)...what do ya expect....duh'

The only article covered is by Wall Street Journal in the entire US MSM that I have come across. Oh no wait even the Wall street did not covered it, the article is covering a different book.


[edit on 14-12-2009 by December_Rain]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by December_Rain]

reply to post by mmiichael


Nobody has denied the presence of the Saudi lobby. The Saudi connection to the Bush administration has been covered on ATS many times. I've mentioned it myself in several threads.

The Neo-Con movement that has hijacked our country exists between the Israeli and Saudi lobby. Thought the Saudis and the Israelis are opposing forces, there is evidence of collusion when dealing with common threats - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

The head of Mossad, Israel’s overseas intelligence service, has assured Benjamin Netanyahu, its prime minister, that Saudi Arabia would turn a blind eye to Israeli jets flying over the kingdom during any future raid on Iran’s nuclear sites.

Earlier this year Meir Dagan, Mossad’s director since 2002, held secret talks with Saudi officials to discuss the possibility.

The Israeli press has already carried unconfirmed reports that high-ranking officials, including Ehud Olmert, the former prime minister, held meetings with Saudi colleagues. The reports were denied by Saudi officials.

“The Saudis have tacitly agreed to the Israeli air force flying through their airspace on a mission which is supposed to be in the common interests of both Israel and Saudi Arabia,” a diplomatic source said last week.

Although the countries have no formal diplomatic relations, an Israeli defence source confirmed that Mossad maintained “working relations” with the Saudis.

Saudis give nod to Israeli raid on Iran

Other evidence of collusion can be found in the Iran-Contra debacle, which both were tied to:

* In March 1982, the New York Times cited documents indicating that Israel had supplied half or more of all arms reaching Tehran in the previous 18 months, amounting to at least $100 million in sales.
* Foreign intelligence sources told Aerospace Daily in August 1982 that Israel's support was "crucial" to keeping Iran's air force flying against Iraq.
* An alleged former CIA agent reportedly visited Israel in 1982, met with the chief of staff of the Israeli Defense Forces and head of military intelligence, and "struck a deal with them involving the transfer of weapons and equipment, captured by Israel during the Lebanon war, to Iran."
* Israeli sources told Newsweek that "they sold the Iranians much of the light weaponry and ammunition that the Israeli army had captured during its invasion of Lebanon; subsequently, they sold overhauled jet engines, spare parts for American-made M-48 tanks, ammunition and other hardware-S100 million worth in 1983 alone."

Irangate: The Israel Connection

and the Saudis:

Quoting a French intelligence report posted by PBS Frontline, The New Yorker reports, “During the nineteen-eighties, when the Reagan administration secretly arranged for an estimated $34 million to be funneled through Saudi Arabia to the Contras in Nicaragua, [Osama’s eldest brother] Salem bin Laden aided in this cause.” [PBS Frontline, 2001; New Yorker, 11/5/2001]

Months before the National Security Council (NSC)‘s Oliver North sets up his network to illegally divert funds from Iranian arms sales to the Nicaraguan Contras (see December 6, 1985 and April 4, 1986), the NSC uses the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI—see July 22, 1991) to channel money to the Contras. This money is sent from White House-controlled funds to Saudi Arabia to “launder” its origins, then deposited into a BCCI bank account controlled by Contra leader Adolfo Calero. [Time, 7/22/1991]

History Commons: Iran-Contra and Arms-for-Hostages Scandals

I agree with what several posters on this thread have stated - the lobbying industry needs to go. As long as those with power rooted in immense finances can influence political agenda, the so-called 'freedom' of the United States is merely a facade. But we can't confuse this as a national problem - as what we are dealing with are foreign influences and multinational corporations, this basic human corruption has spread to every inch of the globe.

It's not exactly a State Secret the US and Britain were asked to invade Iraq in the early 90s at the behest of the Saudis who even offered them a base of operation.

The Saudis told Bush Sr to stop short of deposing Saddam Hussein not wishing to set a precedent of overriding Muslim state sovereignty.

They came to regret that decision and asked the US to finish off Saddam in Phase 2, 5 years ago.

We can't downplay the role of Bechtel and George P. Schultz in the US-Iraq relationship. Our ties didn't go sour until Saddam backed out of the proposed Iraq-Aqaba pipeline, which he interestingly didn't do until after we gave him helicopters fitted for "crop dusting purposes", as well as arming, funding, and training soldiers to fight the Iranians. Schultz would eventually go on to become a member of the Project for the New American Century.

Of course, this all happened at the same time as Iran-Contra. So many agendas by so many different people, interlocking and separating, leading to a legacy that we are dealing with today.



[edit on 14-12-2009 by Someone336]

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Someone336]

Originally posted by Someone336
Nobody has denied the presence of the Saudi lobby. The Saudi connection to the Bush administration has been covered on ATS many times. I've mentioned it myself in several threads.

The Neo-Con movement that has hijacked our country exists between the Israeli and Saudi lobby. Thought the Saudis and the Israelis are opposing forces, there is evidence of collusion when dealing with common threats - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Then how do you explain Saudi Arabia's non-stop assault on Israel and their support of terrorism worldwide? Given that the Saudi royal factions and Pakistan's controlling ISI funded and co-ordinated 9/11 - the picture might be a lot more complex than friends and enemies.

Although the countries have no formal diplomatic relations, an Israeli defence source confirmed that Mossad maintained “working relations” with the Saudis.

Given that all major intelligence services at some time have "working relations" with each other how is this unusual or even noteworthy? Except in the mind of someone like yourself who has decided anything Israel does is reprehensible. What do you want? Israel and the Saudis not share intelligence?

Saudis give nod to Israeli raid on Iran

Other evidence of collusion can be found in the Iran-Contra debacle, which both were tied to:

* In March 1982, the New York Times cited documents indicating that Israel had supplied half or more of all arms reaching Tehran in the previous 18 months, amounting to at least $100 million in sales.

Irangate: The Israel Connection

and the Saudis:

Quoting a French intelligence report posted by PBS Frontline, The New Yorker reports, “During the nineteen-eighties, when the Reagan administration secretly arranged for an estimated $34 million to be funneled through Saudi Arabia to the Contras in Nicaragua, [Osama’s eldest brother] Salem bin Laden aided in this cause.” [PBS Frontline, 2001; New Yorker, 11/5/2001]

Months before the National Security Council (NSC)‘s Oliver North sets up his network to illegally divert funds from Iranian arms sales to the Nicaraguan Contras (see December 6, 1985 and April 4, 1986)

History Commons: Iran-Contra and Arms-for-Hostages Scandals

Of course, this all happened at the same time as Iran-Contra. So many agendas by so many different people, interlocking and separating, leading to a legacy that we are dealing with today.

You might want to check your calendar. It's not 1979, 1989, or 1999 any more. The world has change a lot and keeps changing. Alignments of powers have changed considerably in the last few decades. The dissolution of the Soviet Union altered many alliances.

Any superficial glance at 20th Century history shows nations working with and against each other at various times. That's international politics. Iran and Israel were supportive of each other for a long time.. Even with the Islamic Regime at one point in the 80s when Iran engaged in it's Holy War against Iraq.

The past is in the past. Japan and Germany are no longer considered enemies of the US, in case you haven't heard.

Anyone can scour the Internet and assemble isolated reports if they want to present as a case against Israel. A lot of agenda-driven websites do it for you.

If you want an objective analysis of world affairs you have to look at many issues. The fact that the Middle East is the primary source of oil exports for the world is the key factor in understanding what goes on there.

In the past there was active resistance to Soviet attempts to gain leverage in the region. Iraq for a long time was a client state of the Soviets. So was Egypt. Alliance and affiliations are in constant flux.

Iran is being isolated today. Even the Russians who have been supplying them with sub-standard weaponry are worried about their unpredictable regime. Right now the US and the West, more quietly the Saudis, Jordan, Egypt – are supportive of Israel and hostile to Iran for reasons beyond some nefarious infiltration scheme that you want so hard to believe in.


M

reply to post by Someone336


Don't fall in his derailing trap. He does not want us to talk about Israeli Lobby on a thread which title stats "The Israeli Lobby - Too Powerful". He will drag the whole topic to Chinese/north pole /south pole lobby anything to keep away from discussing the OP and what the thread is about.

Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by Someone336

 

Don't fall in his derailing trap. He does not want us to talk about Israeli Lobby on a thread which title stats "The Israeli Lobby - Too Powerful". He will drag the whole topic to Chinese/north pole /south pole lobby anything to keep away from discussing the OP and what the thread is about.

OK let's discuss "The Israeli Lobby - Too Powerful"

Too powerful for what?

Washington is filled with lobbyist from dozens of countries and industries,
all vying for legislation and policy.

Conflicting lobby interests try to nullify the influence of special interest group in the US or one another. Do you want Israel's lobby nullified in exchange for the your choice of interests having increased influence?

Which ones?

How about this for consideration:

The Israeli lobby is often in conflict with the Council on American-Islamic Relations which has consistently pushed for Anti-Israeli relations and measures.

Many believe this powerful organization needs all the opposition it can get

die-gruene-pest.com...


D.C. Muslim lobby's shocking al-Qaida ties
CAIR's terror connections extend beyond Hamas to Enemy No. 1

October 20, 2009

die-gruene-pest.com...

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations' ties to terrorism are not limited to Hamas and cross over to al-Qaida, America's No. 1 enemy, a top-selling new book alleges.

In just one of several shocking and previously unreported findings, "Muslim Mafia: Inside the Secret Underworld That's Conspiring to Islamize America" details a secret meeting between CAIR's founding chairman and al-Qaida's spiritual leader in America – blind Sheik Omar Abdul-Rahman – who is now a convicted terrorist. Al-Qaida's top leaders have vowed revenge for the federal imprisonment of the Egyptian-born cleric.

CAIR has come under fire in the past for supporting the Blind Sheik, who was convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing investigation. But the group maintains "this is a lie. No evidence substantiating this falsehood has ever been offered."

However, "Muslim Mafia" – co-authored by former federal agent P. David Gaubatz and investigative journalist Paul Sperry – reveals that around the time the Blind Sheik was plotting to bomb major New York landmarks, he traveled from New York to San Jose, Calif., to meet privately with Omar M. Ahmad, CAIR's long-time chairman, who is now under active federal investigation.

reply to post by mmiichael


To powerful and too criminal for America's and American's own good!

I’ve been covering the AIPAC spy case since CBS broke the story of US secrets stolen by top officials of Israel’s number one Washington lobbyist, way back in late summer of 2004. Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin, AIPAC honcho Steven Rosen, and the Lobby’s number one Iran specialist, Keith Weissman, were indicted on August 4, 2005. Franklin pleaded guilty, and, in a deal with the government, promised to testify at the trial of his co-conspirators, Rosen and Weissman, in exchange for leniency: depending on his performance at the upcoming trial, he may get his 12-year sentence reduced considerably.

That is, if the trial ever takes place. I’ve been on this case since day one, but even I’ve lost count of how many times the trial has been delayed, for one made-up-sounding reason or another. Rosen and Weissman are certainly getting the best defense lawyers: their legal costs, already running into the millions before the trial has even begun, must have set some kind of record. Rosen and Weissman are the Lobby’s Sacco and Vanzetti, and they are certainly getting excellent legal representation. As the Jewish Telegraphic Agency reports:

AntiWar.com

The above is rather typical of the shadowy quasi-criminal orginazation known as AIPAC.

The truth is whether it's the militant militia of the JDL or the lawyers of the Anti Defamation League or American Civil Liberties Union or those malignant criminals at B'nai Brith, Israel maintains a large cohersive presence in the United States that will utilize the Courts, extortion, blackmail, bribery, violence and other assorted forms of amoral and criminal behavior to sell out the American people for the good of a warmongering illegal criminal enterprise known as Zionist Israel!

[edit on 14/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The above is rather typical of the shadowy quasi-criminal orginazation known as AIPAC.

The truth is whether it's the militan militia of the JDL or the lawyers of the Anti Defamation League or American Civil Liberties Union or those malignant criminals at B'nai Brith, Israel maintains a large cohersive presence in the United States that will utilize the Courts, extortion, blackmail, bribery, violence and other assorted forms of amoral and criminal behavior to sell out the American people for the good of a warmongering illegal criminal enterprise known as Zionist Israel!

You're right. It's ourageous these bloodsuckers forcing their interests on God-fearing peace loving Americans.

Just phoned Mossad HQ and told them to withdraw their claws. Israeli lobbyists will not be returning to work in the next year.

All further complaints on undue influence on Middle East policies are to be forwarded to the Washington headquarters of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) or your state office.

America must be saved from powerful lobbyists!







[edit on 14-12-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


Well hey that certainly would be a nice Hanukkah Gift.

Now if only Canadian citizens had that kind of juice here in America to where it isn't just a less than credible way to deflect away from the criminal activities of AIPAC.

Of course all kinds of non-Americans have their own views of what America should be doing for them in their little part of the world at the American citizen and taxpayer's expense, and all I can say to such people is...

What have you done for the American Citizen lately?

September 12, 2001

"Asked tonight what the attack (9/11) meant for relations between the United States and Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, the former prime minister, replied, "It's very good."

www.nytimes.com...


April 16, 2008

"The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv on Wednesday reported that Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

www.haaretz.com...


There you have it. The current Israeli Prime Minister when asked about 9/11 and the Iraq War replied on two occasions the attacks were "very good" and beneficial for Israel.

Not to worry. I am sure this warm hearted generous individual has sent sympathy cards to the relatives of the victims of the 9/11 attacks and to the dead American soldiers' families. Hey, it's the least he could do to show his appreciation. Right?

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
September 12, 2001

"Asked tonight what the attack (9/11) meant for relations between the United States and Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, the former prime minister, replied, "It's very good."

www.nytimes.com...

April 16, 2008

"The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv on Wednesday reported that Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

www.haaretz.com...

There you have it. The current Israeli Prime Minister when asked about 9/11 and the Iraq War replied on two occasions the attacks were "very good" and beneficial for Israel.

Not to worry. I am sure this warm hearted generous individual has sent sympathy cards to the relatives of the victims of the 9/11 attacks and to the dead American soldiers' families. Hey, it's the least he could do to show his appreciation. Right?

It is a matter of record Israel immediately extended condolences to the US
and to the families of the dead immediately after. That there were government and private informal services, various memorials, websites, etc.

When asked the specific question of "what the attack (9/11) meant for relations between the United States and Israel" exactly what reply would you consider appropriate?

When Netanyahu qualified: "We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," these events "swung American public opinion in our favor"

Presumably in the context again of how Israel was affected, what do you consider appropriate for him to say?

You imply these are his only remarks on 9/11. Do you have a full record of everything he has said in the last 8 years, and this is it? That there was never anything sympathetic or charitable? Or have you just isolated two responses to serve your message?

reply to post by mmiichael

Then how do you explain Saudi Arabia's non-stop assault on Israel and their support of terrorism worldwide? Given that the Saudi royal factions and Pakistan's controlling ISI funded and co-ordinated 9/11 - the picture might be a lot more complex than friends and enemies.

You select what you want to read from people's posts and ignore the rest. Did I not state 'Thought the Saudis and the Israelis are opposing forces, there is evidence of collusion when dealing with common threats - "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"'?

Given that all major intelligence services at some time have "working relations" with each other how is this unusual or even noteworthy? Except in the mind of someone like yourself who has decided anything Israel does is reprehensible. What do you want? Israel and the Saudis not share intelligence?

Excuse me? Can you show me where I stated that everything Israel does is reprehensible? And is it not important to study and scrutinize the collusion of certain groups, as this is one of the key factors in the procession of world politics?

You might want to check your calendar. It's not 1979, 1989, or 1999 any more. The world has change a lot and keeps changing. Alignments of powers have changed considerably in the last few decades. The dissolution of the Soviet Union altered many alliances.

Are you familiar with the concept of 'blowback'? When you have people all involved in the same scheme espousing identical rhetoric decades later, revisiting past allegiances and breaking old ones in an ever shifting game of war, it is something definitely worth studying. After all, I did state 'So many agendas by so many different people, interlocking and separating, leading to a legacy that we are dealing with today. '

Anyone can scour the Internet and assemble isolated reports if they want to present as a case against Israel. A lot of agenda-driven websites do it for you.

If you want an objective analysis of world affairs you have to look at many issues. The fact that the Middle East is the primary source of oil exports for the world is the key factor in understanding what goes on there..

Isolated reports? It's called subterfuge. As per Middle East oil... really? I had no idea.

I agree with December Rain... your purpose here is to not discuss the issue at hand, which is Israeli influence on America's role in international politics, but to derail the thread by twisting around our words and planting your own opinions on our views. I don't see how you can really magically deduce our views on everything, much less though on the complexity of the march of politics. You stated:

OK let's discuss "The Israeli Lobby - Too Powerful"

Too powerful for what?

Washington is filled with lobbyist from dozens of countries and industries,
all vying for legislation and policy.

Conflicting lobby interests try to nullify the influence of special interest group in the US or one another. Do you want Israel's lobby nullified in exchange for the your choice of interests having increased influence?

I guess you conveniently skimmed over the posts discussing the need to remove the lobbying industry in full from our political systems, be they Israeli, Saudi, Wall Street or whoever wishes to dominate public and private agenda. But acknowledging those would conflict with your crusade, right?



[edit on 15-12-2009 by Someone336]

Originally posted by Someone336
I guess you confidently skimmed over the posts discussing the need to remove the lobbying industry in full from our political systems, be they Israeli, Saudi, Wall Street or whoever wishes to dominate public and private agenda. But acknowledging those would conflict with your crusade, right?

If that is your intent and I appear it dismiss it, accpet my apology.

I have no great crusade or am an unuestioning supporter of the Israel, the US, or their realtionship.

What I have seen in a year on ATS is almost unceasing attacks on Israel, Jews (using the code word "Zionists") and attempts to malign them and impugn conspiracy plots. The usual tactic is to isolate inflate or exaggerate incidents, provide no context, and launch into an attack. The Usual Suspects populating this forum join in for the festivities.

I've seen references to it being established without question "Mossad did 9/11" "Zionist lobby runs the US" "Jews control the media" "Israel is just like the Nazis" "The Holocaust was an excuse to grab land" and a dozen other atrocious lies. They often go uncountered. To many these are articles of faith.

More I'm tempted to say but don't particularly want get into this particular discussion. I suspect it would fall on deaf ears.


M

reply to post by mmiichael


Apology accepted.

My intent is to study the lobbyist and special interest groups operating on behalf of multinational corporations and foreign influences, as well as the impact this inevitably has on second and third world countries. What I wanted to draw attention to here was the Israeli lobby, and how the Franklin spy scandal can be connected - both directly and indirectly - to the Jane Harman spy scandal and Iran-Contra, and to a lesser extent the yellowcake forgeries, Valerie Plame and the Abu Omar rendition case, with a focus on the present rhetoric towards Iran as a part of the so-called "Great Game" of the highly incestuous and viperous world of geo-politics. I don't deny that I am highly critical of Israel's actions involving the Palestinians, but I am careful not to lump all Israelis under the 'Zionist' moniker. While I strongly oppose the dictatorship of Ahmadinejad and the violence of the Islamic Regime, I believe that partaking in military action against Iran would be a criminal action and would only serve to stir up hornets nest.

If you wish to discuss the Saudi lobby, which I would gladly do so, you're more than welcome to make a thread on that topic.

Originally posted by Someone336
My intent is to study the lobbyist and special interest groups operating on behalf of multinational corporations and foreign influences, as well as the impact this inevitably has on second and third world countries.

I know a bit about American lobbyists. Like parasites in the human body their impact on good health is negative, but a few contribute beneficially.

It goes without saying the Israeli lobby gets inordinate attention. The Saudi one is better known and more influential in Washington and press circles. They are more magnanimous in buying off politicians with cash gifts, advisory positions after leaving office, campaign funding, etc. They own outright a number of congress members and senators. Jimmy Carter and the Clintons come to mind as high profile acquisitions. They now have moved into buying academics.

Little reporting on them in part due to their share control of news services like Associated Press and Reuters. Half a dozen books and dozens of articles elaborating on Saudi influence and their powerful lobby have been withdrawn or repressed in the past decade. The work of Saudi royal family banker Khalid bin Mahfouz whose legal teams have spent millions successfully intimidating publishers with libel lawsuits from Britain.

One American author, Rachel Ehrenfeld, has successfully fought an attempt to have her book suppressed in the US. A new precedent was set wherein British courts cannot extend their jurisdiction to the US. Her works are worth seeking out for those interested in powerful lobbies.

"Funding Evil: How Terrorism is Financed" "Evil Money, Encounters Along the Money Trail"

The real elephant in the room among foreign lobbyists has always been Turkey. As US and Turkish foreign policy interests coincide, the exchanges are less material and more in the realm of security assurances.

Similarly Pakistan works on a higher level than lobbying among politicians for advantageous legislation. It deals directly with the military and the Oval Office.

There are a number of good books and in-depth articles on lobbying. I recommend avoiding the usual WWW fluff and mass media junk. There are a couple informed online political forums.

If there has ever been a decent thread on this forum on lobbying that isn't just an Israel bashing love fest - I haven't seen it.


M



[edit on 15-12-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


Your reasoning is flawed. Suppose I was to write a book on the French in Algeria in the late 50's and early 60's. By your logic, this would be a moot point and completely irrelevant thing to do, because the French in Vietnam is a much larger historic episode.

Why?

I like your recommendations to study books written by authorities on the issues at hand, and avoid "conspiratorial websites" (though I don't believe I'm cited any 'zany conspiracy sites' once in this thread, and try to use news sources). As if I haven't done this. Nope, just stumbling blind through the web, believing every bit of junk information that comes along.

I see you mention Carter and Clinton as being bought by the Saudi lobby. Why not mention the Bush administration? Is it because he also panders so much to the Israeli lobby as well, indicating that these two entities are not mutually exclusive. You must know about the Saudis and Bush, after all, you have mentioned Khalid Bin Mahfouz, and I'm sure you know that he, along with Salem Bin Laden and Ghaith Pharon were tied to Bush's Arbusto energy (which later, under the name Spectrum 7, did business with Enron). You probably also know that all three, as well as Bush's friend James R. Bath, are connected to the BCCI

Forget your NWO and birther plots, ATS. This is the real world of conspiracy, and it's dark, dangerous and scary.

The BCCI, founded by a Pakistani, is intertwined in America's intelligence underbelly, and well as with the Saudis. It's been linked to Bush. It's been linked to Iran-Contra, and a plethora of other misdeeds and crimes. It's also been connected to Mossad. Why no mention of this?

Regarding the Turkish lobby... follow the Valerie Plame angle and you'll end up with the American Turkish Council, and follow that rabbit hole to reach the US-Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce, which brings us back to where we started.

Again, if you wish to discuss the Saudi lobby, which I would love to do, why not make your own thread on that?

Originally posted by Someone336
Why not mention the Bush administration? Is it because he also panders so much to the Israeli lobby as well, indicating that these two entities are not mutually exclusive. You must know about the Saudis and Bush, after all, you have mentioned Khalid Bin Mahfouz, and I'm sure you know that he, along with Salem Bin Laden and Ghaith Pharon were tied to Bush's Arbusto energy (which later, under the name Spectrum 7, did business with Enron). You probably also know that all three, as well as Bush's friend James R. Bath

I don't do threads on a conspiracy site. All the dumbass fruitcakes come out of the woodwork and derail anything controversial. White trash Jew haters are enough to deal with.

I didn't mention Bush and the Saudis because they're not part of the lobbyist circuit. They're mainline.

The deal with the US guaranteeing the ibn Saud's family security as sole rulers of the Kingdom kicked into high gear when Fahd assumed the throne in 1975. Then the second deal between the al Saudari lineage of the family kicked in.

They siphoned off something like 300,000 barrels a day?, I forget the number. It was sold through special channels through the Texas mob.

The bin Laden family of course enter the picture. But I don't want to get into the long involved Saudi-US history. Books on it - the recent "House of Saud, House of Bush" covers it as do others.

No coincidence the bin Laden patriarch, Osama's daddy and sire of 50 siblings, died in a light plane crash in Texas in 1968. His son, Osama's big brother took over. And guess what, he died in a plane crash in Texas in 1988!

There are hair-curling stories like how American blonde children were being exchanged to Saudi princes for favours. This documented on Herb Mallard's website "Sauduction" which I notice the Saudis pulled down. But it's hiding and up if you know how to look.

As I've said before, the Saudis have been running US Middle East policy for decades now. Where Pakistan fits in is another story. But as you can guess it has to do with control of Central Asian oil, and Afghanstan is the key.

The Taliban, despite what you may read, are Pakistan. But Pakistan is more than a place on a map. Westerners tend to think the Muslim world operates as defined countries.

More maybe another time.





[edit on 15-12-2009 by mmiichael]