Abrahamic Religion Debunked By Its Own Tenets?

reply to post by Bunken Drum


OK, i take your point on the 'idiot' thing...but really, that is me showing restraint (i get so angry over this subject).

I hope you get your rational argument, i really do..but i don't think you will.

I've heard it theorized that most humans (not all) are genetically predisposed to belief in a deity of one sort or another..their brains are 'hardwired' to think the way they do, with the fervor and fanaticism many religious people display.

I don't know whether that is the case personally, i think it is more a question of how much and how focussed mind/personality programming has occurred during children's early lives.

That is basically all there is to religion IMO..the repetition of what has been programmed into us from birth by those who care for us, and / or teach us.

But, each to their own i suppose. I will point out however, for the more fanatically religious amongst the readers, that a human being can be religious and very evil...just as much as a human being can be not religious and be very kind and good person.

In short, being religious does not mean, in NO WAY shape or form make that person a good person, or visa versa.

Can religious people acknowledge and agree that atheists and agnostics have and display love and compassion and charity and goodness and all of those positive qualities associated with religious teachings?

Can they agree that we love and cherish our wives and husbands, our sons and daughters? That our hearts ache when we see the suffering of others?

I also have questions that have yet to be answered to my satisfaction.

Religious people would say;

God is omnipotent yes?

God is the creator of humanity yes?

God has given humanity free will yes?

God created the universe/multiverse and everything contained within and without yes?

Exactly WHY does god require / want humanity to worship him/her/it then?

Isn't omnipotence and the creation of literally everything tangible and intangible enough?

What is in it for god? What does it get out of our worship? And why does god (according to religious texts) commit mass murder if 'he doesn't get his own way?

Basically, god is saying 'Worship me, or i'm going to murder each and every one of you pathetic creatures and all of your offspring'...not exactly the god of love religious types profess.

I know i haven't worded this properly...i'm not happy with it, but you get the idea i hope.



[edit on 13/12/2009 by spikey]

reply to post by TarzanBetaOK, I can see that you're a committed christian & please dont take this as criticism, because it truly isn't, but I dont understand how a lot of what you wrote relates to the OP or my reply to your 1st post. I got some of it, perhaps you would clarify what I dont cover?

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
The only thing God has chosen not to make us do is serve Him willingly

I'm not at all sure thats representative of the broad doctrine of the Abrahamic faiths. As I understand it, the GoA allows us to choose Him, worship "idols" or "false gods", be atheists, become apostate, or even serve Satan/The Anti-Christ in the final extreme. Of course, it can be argued that we cannot but serve the design of an omnipotent deity, but, from the human perspective, that is irrelevant. It is what we believe & what we choose to do about it that defines our relationship with a religion &/or deity.
Consider the Kali worshipper, devotedly sacrificing animals, maybe even people, before a graven image, in the full belief that such is the will of his goddess. The GoA could use many different means to attempt to persuade that man to His cause, but, at the moment he manifests some irrefutable proof that He is the 1 & only true God, freewill flies out the window, because, confronted with the undeniable proof of The Source of All, only the mentally ill could still reject that & not serve willingly. However, without such an ineffability contradicting manifestation, neither our Kali worshipper nor anyone else has reason beyond their own intuition to accept any such message, especially 2nd hand, since, as you rightly emphasise, humans are all too prone to lying.
[I'm using a phone = limited character count = continued below]

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


very interested to know why you chose an 'm' in your avatar :-)

GoA could use many different means to attempt to persuade that man to His cause, but, at the moment he manifests some irrefutable proof that He is the 1 & only true God, freewill flies out the window, because, confronted with the undeniable proof of The Source of All, only the mentally ill could still reject that & not serve willingly.

I don't see how that follows. I would acknowledge whatever fact might be proven, but whether or not I then served is a decision, not a matter of fact suitable for proof.

I have read people's well-reasoned claims that they would not serve the Old Testament God, or not serve Allah, even if they came to know that he was real. Both Christianity and Islam propose that there is a Satan who disobeys God, even though Satan knows firsthand who and what God is. Judaism has a different set of ideas, but Moses was convinced of being in God's presence by the burning bush (regardless of whether or not we would find that fully convincing as "proof"), and still there was negotiation over the terms of his service.

It would be very odd to propose that free will is incompatible with informed consent.

I am open to the idea that there couldn't be such a proof, but not that God is holding it back in order to preserve our free will.

reply to post by TarzanBeta[cont]

In reality, events do affect what we believe. However, the test is to realize that no event can change the reality that has existed before and that which continues thereafter.

Ah great point! Still, regardless of any theories regarding predetermination, when it comes to the objective reality of the past (if there is such a thing), we can only determine what happened by what we can glean with our limited senses & undertanding from the evidence left behind & the writings of our predecessors. However, if the study of history & psychology have taught us anything, it is that such writing is often inaccurate, usually biased & always misunderstood outside the context of the society in which it was written. In the absence of reliable time travel then, the past & any putative acts of deities are even more unknowable than the ineffable GoA, since the GoA could contact us personally in the here & now, at least supporting our subjective hypothesis that He exists.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
The most likely reasons for the creation of this thread are as follows... etc

As I said in the OP, this topic was inspired by a discussion in another thread, it was a bit OT there, so I started anew. Of course, I'm interested in spiritual matters & also entertained by discussing them. Btw, I'm not at all ashamed of my continuing spiritual development; a few behavioural mishaps definitely, but the inner me abides & evolves, you know? Nor am I looking for a religion, just spiritual growth.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
Whether or not these are true, the point I intend to make is made valid. I have attempted to discern the logic of the creation of this thread and I am inevitably right or wrong.

This is interesting, because, now that I've answered you, somewhat vaguely, how can you know if I'm telling the truth? The same as with scripture: human judgement.

reply to post by Bunken Drum


To answer the last question, I don't need to know that you think you're telling the truth. All I need to know is what -is- the truth. The truth is that it doesn't matter -why- you created this thread, but only the lessons that shall be learned from the thread. If you believe that any lessons are learned from this thread, then HOW MANY MORE lessons from the Bible? And once you understand that there are many lessons to be learned from the Bible, so many that you would never stop learning during your mortal lifetime, then you begin to realize that the Bible Is Truth by its very own nature. It is a combination of so much wisdom, so much so that our simple-minded and selfish questions about God concerning His existence and His power are answered so easily that we feel pathetic when we realize it! And that feeling of pathetic doesn't go away, and neither does that doubt. No, it doesn't. For a perfect faith NO ONE here has in their own battle in their mind. A perfect faith can be represented through action, but in the mind, that person representing that perfect faith is absorbing so much of their own negativity in order for them to perform that action.

Okay. I'll lessen the run-ons. I am run-on king when it comes to God-talk.

And I apologize for my previous posts, I was very tired and I work the overnight shift. If you remember, we were communicating around noon your time. That is my morning, which is when I go to bed.

Continuing, the only thing God has chosen not to make us do is serve him willingly. This is a true statement and I will offer rebuttal to your reply in this way. God has the ability and oftentimes does, according to the Bible, harden peoples' hearts. Meaning, they may have sense to understand and the ability to reason with themselves, but once again, God takes away and gives as HE PLEASES. Therefore, if it is not God's will for a particular person to "see the light" so to speak, He can and will harden that person's heart to reason. I ask you to refer to the story of The Pharaoh and Moses.
However, the Pharaoh could never be forced to serve God willingly because the Pharaoh is not willing! If the pharaoh is not willing, then he can never be forced willingly. This cannot possibly be difficult to understand.

As far as peoples' ability to lie, no one can lie to God. God knows our hearts. People can lie to people and we rarely know the difference. However, God knows our hearts and it is to our advantage that He knows our hearts because regardless of what we do and say, God knows what we mean. People are not so forgiving. Think about it. Realize that someone is always listening to your heart -- and pay close attention, because we sometimes forget to listen to our heart and we listen to our scheming. I do it all the time. A very tiny, almost non-existence "word" will happen within me saying, "bad idea", but I continue. However, I know that it happened. But, I wasn't paying attention. It's not until after the bad result happened that I say to myself, "I knew it!" This IS GOD. He knows our hearts and He talks to us through our hearts.

This is important, because when you are reading the Bible, you will get that feeling a lot and you will immediately shoot it down, using your own personal education, logic, and wits to defend yourself against His voice. You will be fully and understandly firm in your belief because intelligence rules. Yet, when you go out on a limb, if ever you do, and accept His logic and apply it for a while... it becomes awfully apparent that what you attempt to prove is a JOKE and that you cannot convince anyone of what you are witnessing because there are no real words. It's a fact. You can not have many friends as a Christian. No one believes you and you are crazy, even to the 1 billion self-proclaimed christians out there.

So, yes, the debate is good, and your intelligence is mighty, but experience trumps and it is apparent that my experience is past yours. Unless you are simply casting a ruse. I would never underestimate people to the point to assume that they are not more in line with God or even possibly God himself. Which is why it is so bad for me to be treating people who I consider to be incredibly stupid so badly... I am really learning my lesson I think...

The study of PSYCHOLOGY IS A RUSE ITSELF.

Psychology is the art of applying error to human as if it is the only possibly human trait. Psychology is the ability to kill spirituality! Psychology has nothing good to offer the world! I know from experience and I can prove that your claim of psychology being a science demerits and disqualifies anything you ever say aside from, "Psychology is not knowledge or wisdom." Watch as God's wisdom is proven so simply it makes you blink.

I choose to make sure that my point is proven. I choose to have proper grammar in this very paragraph. I choose to decide when I type. I can take five seconds or I can take ten. I can count those seconds using a watch or using my hands. I can do anything I want with my imagination. I have all of the power of our physical world at my fingertips. Show me how I have erred! Where have I made a mistake?

That paragraph is forever in time and will never be taken away. It is 100% truth. I am human and yet I have made perfection. In small form, yes, but with enough will I could overcome anything. I could write a 100% legitimate story all by myself. And yet, is it so hard to believe that dozens of people who had a mind like mine, of truth, of history have decided to write letters and poems? Beyond that, for their God who they realize has done everything?!

It's not a hard reality to believe in the least. But, only reading with a thankful mind will ever prove anything beyond simple scientific mischief.

As I said in the OP, this topic was inspired by a discussion in another thread, it was a bit OT there, so I started anew. Of course, I'm interested in spiritual matters & also entertained by discussing them. Btw, I'm not at all ashamed of my continuing spiritual development; a few behavioural mishaps definitely, but the inner me abides & evolves, you know? Nor am I looking for a religion, just spiritual growth.

I did not think you were ashamed of development, but of your past. God will take you I think.

Apologies for being away so long: work & kids; both, incidentally 4 letter words! I'll read back & reply shortly.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

What do you mean by 'an inability to enage with the details of the room?'

Sticking with the room metaphor, what I mean is that the internal logic of a belief structure is part of the furniture. It may be that it works just fine the way it is, but maybe it needs rearranging, perhaps some bits thrown out, others brought in.
An inability to test the furniture out speaks to me of a preconceived idea of the rightness of it, which in turn suggests blindness to new possibilities, some of which may have been intended all along by the interior designer but somehow got muddled up in translation.
Dropping the metaphor, either a belief structure is internally self consistent or it isn't. If it isn't, its a recipe for confusion, which is an open invitation to abuse.
That is what this thread seeks to find out: is Abrahamic religion self consistent or not?

Inject new metaphor here...
...I feel like I am trying to explain coitis, conception and birth to a one year old.

Please permit me to use a quotation from a guy in a biblical manuscript...
..."Except a man be born again, he cannot see..."

You are attempting to 'see' without the necessary prerequisite.

reply to post by Bunken Drum


This thread is too long for me to comfortably get involved with, but I believe we might have a good discussion at some point. I hope to catch any of your other threads some time. Here's a thought, maybe we can reset this thread just between you and me? I haven't read it through, though, it got messy quickly.

Originally posted by TarzanBetaIf you believe that any lessons are learned from this thread, then HOW MANY MORE lessons from the Bible? And once you understand that there are many lessons to be learned from the Bible, so many that you would never stop learning during your mortal lifetime, then you begin to realize that the Bible Is Truth by its very own nature.

BD - I use this as an example of messiness.
TB - You are making the bible into an idol. Please stop. The Word is Truth. The Word is Christ (Anointed). The Anointed is in the Brethren. The Brethren are the Truth far more so than the bible. There are better ways to point at truth than to declare a book to be sovereign. There are better ways to point to the truth than make truth easier to see. Firstly, deal with what truths a person can see and fill them up with truth they have not known yet. But to call the bible "Truth by it's very own nature" is circular reasoning and rooted in idolatry and not even supported by the scriptures itself (not to mention that it has been edited for content and for exclusions multiple times in history, and that is not shameful, except that it does expose Christianity's idolization of it). If Christ (Counselor/Word) and Holy Spirit (Understanding/Comfort) are in you and you in Them, you will trust God (who cannot be seen) in you, and only then will you be able to divide our spiritual history book by being a manifestation of Truth itself.

reply to post by spikey

OK, i take your point on the 'idiot' thing...but really, that is me showing restraint (i get so angry over this subject).

Me too, sometimes! I'm just trying to rise above my troll-nature here Still, as someone who has, over the years, experienced more & more anomalous evidence that there is plenty of wierdness going on in reality, which cannot be understood merely by application of reason to sensual input, I find myself drawn to metaphysics in order to create another model of reality within which to live comfortably.
That isn't to say that I want to replace the scientific model from which I derive my habitual modus operandi, but simply that several layers of reality seem to call for several subjective models. For now, I seem to be capable of understanding the same events from 3 mutually exclusive perspectives, without going completely nuts (!): scientific, spiritual & human-centric magical (er yeah... I know, but if I'm going to talk out of my arse, best go for it, eh?), thus I'm interested to know why others would, for instance, place their faith in the narrative of someone else's spiritual experience (assuming that person wasn't in part or wholly lying), which is the definition of religion, rather than simply waiting & working it out for themselves?

That is basically all there is to religion IMO..the repetition of what has been programmed into us from birth by those who care for us, and / or teach us.

I tend to agree, but I went to Sunday School & Church until aged 7, attended a christian school from 4-10, was a choirboy from 7-11 (they paid me) & most of all, despite christian parents & being exposed to the Judeo-Christian pseudo-morality that is so much of British society, I never believed a word of it, as apparently neither did you. Ok, Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" gives us a clue, but if he's right, how come I'm now experiencing stuff I shouldn't?

Originally posted by pixanomaly reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

very interested to know why you chose an 'm' in your avatar :-)

Our better nature being forced to suffer under the burden of fast-food, ultimately doomed to be nailed to its hegemony, regardless of our piety, &, having failed in our own lifetimes to effect any significant change against the fear & laziness that primarily constitute the human condition, dooming our children to also gasp their last as victims of those golden arches; shall we not drag those corporate logos behind us, like thousands of pounds of anchorage, uphill, in the rain, as we seek, but so long as they exist, fail, to become better than what we are?
Oops... have I gone over the top?
Perhaps letthereaderunderstand will come back & point out where I'm full of sh!t... since, as a human, inevitably, I am.

reply to post by eight bits

I would acknowledge whatever fact might be proven, but whether or not I then served is a decision, not a matter of fact suitable for proof.

Great logic &, on a strictly logical basis, I agree. By definition, free will gives us the choice to refuse, regardless of the consequences. However, consider the depth of the proposition:
The God of Abraham manifests to you in some manner which you find beyond dispute. If you display anything like the reasoning power you've shown here, then such manifestation would actually have to contradict ineffability, since anything less than complete understanding of a divine truth would leave open the possibility of imitation by another spiritual being, or mental illness. Nevertheless, assuming merely 'very convincing god-hood', really, what actual choice would you have? "F# you, I dont care if I'm damned for all eternity!"?
I'm a bit of a dick, which is why I'm self employed: so that I dont have to take sh!t from bosses. That said, if the people holding the purse strings of the companies I contract with say "jump", I've got a choice: ask "How high?" or lose the job & take the bad rep. Since I live in the UK, I can be a real dick if I want, because if our business goes down the tubes, we'll not starve. However, if this was the real GoA offering us a 'take it or leave it' proposition, there wouldn't be any safety net.
Satan? What is there about the reported qualities of Satan that aren't consistent with mental illness? How could any sane person choose eternal damnation over whatever was being asked?
Assuming any of this was true of course...

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
However, since we cannot know the GoA, we have no way of determining whether those instructions came from Him or not, unless He revealed Himself to us, so that we did know beyond question. However, to do so would obviate the need for faith & the freewill that need implies, as a known deity would be in the same category of belief as a known apple, chair, house, or anything else that can be directly experienced. It would also contradict ineffability.

The problem with this line of thinking is you have been caught up with the Christian way of thinking as so many do, including Atheists. Without looking past the surface it would seem rather strange why Atheists take a Christian point of view when looking at the bible. That would mean that the Christians have deceived the Atheists and others into believing that their supposed interpretations of scripture are correct and then Athiests try to use this deception they have been deceived by to try and debunk the scriptures. Most Christians we have spoken with believe the scriptures, they themselves claim to believe in, are invalid because of mistranslations and/or other reasons. Why? Because when they are challenged with their beliefs using the scriptures they can't use them to defend their own beliefs. Why? Because their beliefs don't exist in the bible as the bible says

1 Timothy
4:1 ...in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies...

Your view of "faith" is completely Christian and many follow after this view even Athiests. As for your belief in ineffability, it is again a Christian way of thinking and a way of dancing around answering questions they can't answer the same way they use "faith". Non of this is biblical. It is proof that Christians really don't know God, they admit it themselves. In fact jesus is the antichrist. God never expected anyone to believe without some kind of proof. He has given it to them over and over and over and people still don't believe. If you read the scriptures it points this out all over the place. The Christian jesus is not the Messiah written about in the scriptures but he fulfills the prophecies of the antichrist and will continue to fulfill them. Even though Atheists and Christians alike as well as others may not accept this at this time just keep your eyes and ears peeled. You may not accept the scriptures now but let the fulfillment of the prophecies be a catalyst for the changing of your mind. Simply put but this is actually what repentance is.

Just a little bit of info

such manifestation would actually have to contradict ineffability, since anything less than complete understanding of a divine truth would leave open the possibility of imitation by another spiritual being, or mental illness.

I don't imagine that the human capacity for reason is restricted to words.

The factors you mention are all serious barriers for the God of Abraham to overcome, but if he succeeded, then it would be like that old joke. He would have told me everything I knew about God, but not everything he knew.

So, I could be utterly convinced, and he could remain his ineffable self.

"F# you, I dont care if I'm damned for all eternity!"?

As to the threat, it has already been made. I am an agnostic, and so I allow the serious possibility that the threat may be enacted against me. Nevertheless, I am what I am.

Speaking of old jokes, then, we have already established the principle (the threat has been made and not entirely denied), and now we're dickering about the price (how strongly I would believe the threat under different information).

I think I would be careful how I chose my words, certainly skip that F#U, but if Moses felt free to negotiate with the God of Abraham, then so might I.

Satan? What is there about the reported qualities of Satan that aren't consistent with mental illness? How could any sane person choose eternal damnation over whatever was being asked?

I think it would depend on what was being asked. And of whom. I personally am not physically brave. An all-powerful being could secure my cooperation with merely temporal persuasion. So, there is no prize for coercing me into doing something disreputable.

But no, I don't think Satan is mentally ill. In the various religions' versions of his story, "whatever was being asked" differs. Often, he is asked to betray his selfhood eternally. That might take the form of discarding his freedom of will, or even denying his love of God, an Islamic mystical version of the story.

I think the old joke for that is "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't." Mental illness has nothing to do with which flavor of Hell he chooses, when some of version of Hell was all that he was offered.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

Well, fair enough. My point here however is that, whilst the Torah, Bible & Quran may contain some of the will of the GoA, we cannot rely on any of them if we honestly seek spiritual truth.

Again, the words all mean deeper things then you are giving them credit. If you understood these stories with their intended passage, you wouldn't be confused by them and the truth you are seeking would become apparent. If you are content with the story the way you have received it, you will look no further to find out what is truth and what is not.

The truth is that any knowledge that is had, is passed on or uncovered, but nothing is new. Life is the only thing that is RE-NUDE. When renude, they are naked and not ashamed.

The only thing that stops life from being Eternal is when people stop giving it generation to generation....till the ancient of days...forever. Life goes forward, people do not.

The only truth that will ever be known by anyone is what they do or what they don't do. There is no truth beyond that. You are accountable to you for you and by you, just remember how many generations it has taken to place your feet on the earth. Now you just have to balance the check book sort of speak....

Peace

Originally posted by The Riley Family

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
However, since we cannot know the GoA, we have no way of determining whether those instructions came from Him or not, unless He revealed Himself to us, so that we did know beyond question. However, to do so would obviate the need for faith & the freewill that need implies, as a known deity would be in the same category of belief as a known apple, chair, house, or anything else that can be directly experienced. It would also contradict ineffability.

The problem with this line of thinking is you have been caught up with the Christian way of thinking as so many do, including Atheists. Without looking past the surface it would seem rather strange why Atheists take a Christian point of view when looking at the bible. That would mean that the Christians have deceived the Atheists and others into believing that their supposed interpretations of scripture are correct and then Athiests try to use this deception they have been deceived by to try and debunk the scriptures. Most Christians we have spoken with believe the scriptures, they themselves claim to believe in, are invalid because of mistranslations and/or other reasons. Why? Because when they are challenged with their beliefs using the scriptures they can't use them to defend their own beliefs. Why? Because their beliefs don't exist in the bible as the bible says

1 Timothy
4:1 ...in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies...

Your view of "faith" is completely Christian and many follow after this view even Athiests. As for your belief in ineffability, it is again a Christian way of thinking and a way of dancing around answering questions they can't answer the same way they use "faith". Non of this is biblical. It is proof that Christians really don't know God, they admit it themselves. In fact jesus is the antichrist. God never expected anyone to believe without some kind of proof. He has given it to them over and over and over and people still don't believe. If you read the scriptures it points this out all over the place. The Christian jesus is not the Messiah written about in the scriptures but he fulfills the prophecies of the antichrist and will continue to fulfill them. Even though Atheists and Christians alike as well as others may not accept this at this time just keep your eyes and ears peeled. You may not accept the scriptures now but let the fulfillment of the prophecies be a catalyst for the changing of your mind. Simply put but this is actually what repentance is.

Just a little bit of info

Spot on....you have seen revelations.

Isa 47:3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
Peace

[edit on 17-12-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]

reply to post by TarzanBeta

I don't need to know that you think you're telling the truth. All I need to know is what -is- the truth.

Ah, but what means have you to determine what the truth is, other than by applying reason to the evidence? Which is what I'm doing in this thread.
Consider, if in 200yrs time, somebody incorporates this conversation between us into a narrative purporting to elucidate some divinely inspired truth, then, millenia hence, people like ourselves will have no way of knowing what was actually going on here & now, thus they could choose to simply accept whatever interpretation is placed on our chat by their leaders, or examine what we say to see if it makes sense. Naturally, any claims by either of us which are unsupported by logic, or which rely on unverifyable facts, will be deemed false or unreliable, as I maintain we must do with the Abrahamic religions, for the same reasons.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
once you understand that there are many lessons to be learned from the Bible

Yes, I agree there are, just as in Homer, or the Epic of Gilgamesh, for example. However, none of these 3 have any logical reason to be treated as anything more than traditional stories from which we can learn something about the age-old human condition, just as in other historical/mythological texts concerning morality & spirituality, some of which are internally consistent & do describe a historically verifyable milieu, such as the Legend of King Arthur.
Do we read Arthurian Legend & assume that we must form ourselves into tribal groups, patriarchially led by someone mystically appointed? We used to. These days we've found a better way to live, but we can still draw wisdom from the old tales.
I'm enjoying this, so I'll add more below...

reply to post by TarzanBeta

I am run-on king when it comes to God-talk.
And I apologize for my previous posts, I was very tired and I work the overnight shift

No problem! I work nights too, but right now my business is in trouble, so I have to go in some days also: I fully know what it means to not quite have your sh!t together! Still, I think 1 of the beauties of unstructured debate is that the freedom allowed by not having to stay strictly on-topic often produces happy accidents of lateral thinking - this thread is the product of that process elsewhere.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
God has the ability and oftentimes does, according to the Bible, harden peoples' hearts

Aha! But if the GoA interferes with our emotions or thoughts directly, via His omnipotence, then, by definition, He has deprived us of freewill. What, its ok to harden Pharoe's heart because Pharoe isn't 1 of "us", so we can still think the GoA gives "us" freewill, even tho He doesn't grant the same to other people, even tho those people were also, apparently, created in His image & could be "saved" by belief in Him? Sounds like human lies to me...
Ah Sh!t, I'm getting a migraine attack. Back later...