What really "IS" the Issue????

I think this is not really being looked at.

1) IS this a
A)Moral Issue
B)Pure Legal/Illegal Issue
C)Financial, Hemp could and would replace cotton as our major material.
(Clothes in general, Pharmaceutical's, Doctors-yes, doctors)

A) Moral Issue, this is like anything of the sorts:Alcohol/pot/ anything that relaxes you....... should not be used because it is Imorral to use anything of that nature.

B) This is it is bad because it is illegal only, so if it were made legal, it would be ok

C) It is a fact that hemp would completely replace the cotton industry (it requires less nutrients, can be planted closer and is about 10X stronger/longer lasting than cotton), it would nearly completely replace the valium industry (a multi billion dollar per year product)

It is, quite simply, a "moral" issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

You see, despite separation of church and state, the rules that govern our society are deeply rooted in religious beliefs.

While I personally have no interest in the crap, I don't think use should be a crimminal offence but could you imagine the uproar from closed minded conservatives if it were to be suddenly legalised?

Not to mention all the effort the authorities have gone to to tell us how bad it is, despite the evidence not really supporting this notion.

Legalisation or even decrimminalisation would be seen as a huge backflip so they would rather keep things the way they are for fear of (apparent) consequences.

The system is highly flawed but the powers that be are too afraid to actually change it.

reply to post by OZtracized


I just can't completely agree with you.
(I do, however, respect your right to your opinion)

I believe it is a bit of all three as represented by the governments position. (US)

Just for the sake of discussion, why is it "ONLY" a moral issue???
On that topic, why isn't alcohol a moral issue?
Why isn't caffeine a moral issue?(Coffee)
Why nicotine a moral issue.(Cigarettes)
Why aren't "legal, Prescription" drugs ( as prescribed by a legal doctor) illegal-I refer to pain killers here.

reply to post by mrmonsoon


It is seen as a moral issue as all mind altering substances (except alcohol) are seen as bad in the eyes of the church.

Alcohol, is fine of course because Jesus drank wine and people have been enjoying wine and beer for centuries but excessive intoxication IS seen as bad by the church.

Also, most people drink, including those who make the rules because it is very inground into our society and culture.

Of course, the evidence says that excessive alcohol consumption is really bad for you, probably far worse than the substance of which you speak but it carries a completely different stigma.

50 billion cups of coffee are consumed every year and caffeine is considered a very mild and safe stimulant by the medical world.

Nicotine is being phased out and I believe it will be illegal in the future as the negative health effects are far too damaging for it to be allowed. Look how society's attitude has changed to smoking in recent years. There is a deliberate campaign to reverse the social acceptance of smoking.

Oh and it WOULD NOT replace cotton as nylon didn't and hemp is grown legally for this use. It has a market as hemp fibre has some unique and very desirable qualities but it absolutely is not the be all and end all.

It would not replace diazepam either as the hallucinatory effects of cannabis are seen as a side effect in the medical world and many people who use it experience paranoia which is in stark contrast to benzodiazapenes.

There is definitely a place for it in both the textile and medical worlds (and I believe those who wish to should be able to use it recreationally too) but do not be under any illusions that it would replace anything or is some kind of miracle substance.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by OZtracized]

There is no genuine issue but ONE

Control of the Human mind...

Either we live and are free and can alter our perceptions in a quest for higher thinking or we follow the rule of Law and Religion as it stands...

Drugs to affect cognition and enhance the human experience and expand thought are kept under wraps, substances that hold the potential of putting us in a modern age on a quest for enlightenment are banished.

If we figure out how to control our minds control of humanity is lost...

So even if some of these drugs have negative side effects they will be fought because they represent a direction of human enhancement...

Imagine if eventually we had higher spiritual senses as the psychedelics offer perhaps?

Or if speed could be made without health consequences? Faster thought, reaction time without the psychosis...

That's entering the realm of "super heroes"

"THEY" will not allow that...

Best enhancement drugs out there are for treatment of Alzheimer's if you ask me... Centrophenoxine, Piracetum and others...

Good Insurance a bit o education and the right doctor available...

But they don't want this...

Part of the REAL reason for nationalized health care if you were to ask me...

To keep us from getting the Enhancement drugs that are already out there...

It's to keep control of our minds...

Everything else is a nonsense reason, hiding behind morals... playing games

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Yes I think you have a point too.

In fact I think you are probably dead on the money.

Why couldn't pharmaceutical companies develop recreational substances with greatly reduced side effects in the same way they have developed pain medication etc?

There would be a massive market for it and it's not like they could credibly preach the moral issues!

reply to post by OZtracized


Geeesh.... the Japanese have no problem adding vitamins to Beer

But we can't even get hardly any research done in a constructive way into Marijuana effects in this country, half of what is being done is sponsored financially to PROVE it's bad and even then they can't dig up squat...

'___'?

It was believed by Dr Leary, that the chromosomal changes that happened in light of zero disease as a result were actual manifestation of the minds capacity to alter the genome of self for better and never once has this been looked into constructively...

PROOF...perhaps that the mind can alter the body, explanation of the Placebo effect and the capacity to harness it, change of self and even form to a degree via mind...

Perhaps... at least some clues to the human condition and how to improve it, maybe an direct evidence of how evolution seems to happen suddenly in times of crisis...

IGNORED

They have no desire to see us reach our potential... none.

I do believe that people in general, not just TPTB, hate other people to have free will. It freaks them out when someone is doing their own thing, or is in their own world, and not following the rules - be they of comportment, obedience or whatever.

They cannot control you or predict what you might say, do or think. That is unacceptable in today's world - or at anytime perhaps except the 60's.

Fortunately people are gaining enough first hand experience to know that order doesn't come to an end and there is no chaos to prevent, so the stupid laws are getting slowly, and happily, eroded.

reply to post by mrmonsoon


The reason caffeine and nicotine aren't moral issues is because we are so conditioned and we don't even know it. I mean, thinking purely logically, caffeine and nicotine are mind altering substances that should be in the same class as the illegal drugs in their category. But people are conditioned to think that if something is legal, then it's moral. And if something is illegal, then it must be immoral. And unless someone REALLY challenges them and speaks in depth to them about the logical fallacy, they'll just go along thinking that their opinion makes perfect sense.

Back to the original question, I think it's a bit of all three, along with the PTB's desire to control the populace. As long as they can keep the people thinking irrationally, they have the control.

The fact that any of these substances are illegal, while some lethal substances are perfectly legal and available, is the biggest load of horse poop that I've tried to wrap my mind around in quite some time...

Originally posted by OZtracized
reply to post by mrmonsoon

 

Nicotine is being phased out and I believe it will be illegal in the future as the negative health effects are far too damaging for it to be allowed. Look how society's attitude has changed to smoking in recent years. There is a deliberate campaign to reverse the social acceptance of smoking.

Nicotine is being phased out because people are becoming aware of the ill affects, and choosing not to use it for themselves, not by some kind of intervention from a higher authority. It by no means should become prohibited.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by OZtracized]
There is definitely a place for it in both the textile and medical worlds (and I believe those who wish to should be able to use it recreationally too) but do not be under any illusions that it would replace anything or is some kind of miracle substance.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by OZtracized]


These are not illusions, if we just utilized one of the many benefits, like REPLACING it with the use of trees for paper the outcome would seem to be quite miraculous.

And here is a thread I just made about cannabis
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It not a moral issue at all, its about money like everything else.

Basically America started the Drug War, used its power in the early part of the last century to force most other countries to go along with it, and governments have used it as a means of social control and fund sourcing ever since.

Not to mention Alcohol and Tobaocco would be screwed if other forms of narcotics were made legal. And the pharmaceutical industry would have to shuffle itself about a bit, most likely making less money.

What really "IS" the Issue????

The issue is no matter how many calims there are about what pot does or does not do the fact is that no matter how many threads get shut down, people do not seem to understand the froum rules. People still post threads that are mostly wha wha wha pot is illegal.

This forum is not intended for discussion of legalization advocacy or speculation of enlightenment or spiritual possibilities related to drug use

[edit on 21-12-2009 by zaiger]

the issue simply is no matter what some people just dont give up, they refuse to give up their old ways, they refuse to look at things unbiasedly, they constantly have something up their ass, and that thing is a puppeteers hand.

you could simply show these people god and they will still complain and moan about something that is wrong with something


i posted in the ask a cop thread by semperfortis, i asked him about his thoughts on the subject after he stated in a video that he supported marijuana legalization, not medicalization, not reform, simply legalization


i asked him why he supports reform as i was not attempting to put him on the spot about legalizing it across the board


he corrected me, and bluntly stated that he is not for reform, he believes it should be legalized, period

this is an officer, a marine, etc

a man who is/was on the front line of the drug war

he and many others like him in his line of work believe marijuana should be legal

the reason is simply, the benefits of it being legal outweigh the situation where it is illegal


this opinion isnt even based on medical knowledge or the potential benefits of the substance medically, this is simply from a law enforcement standpoint of how this war on marijuana is affecting our nation


we are simply wasting too much of everything dealing with this subject and it is the biggest single thing hampering the jobs of law enforcement, driving a wedge between the community and law enforcement, and it is also getting in the way of treatment for many people who are ill


now back to your question

what IS the issue?


there are a few, one issue like semper said, plain and simple, money, someones making money from this and its a long list

law makers, law enforcement, pharmaceutical companies, illegal entities (taliban, al queda, mexican mafias, street gangs, etc), etc



the other issue is ignorance and stubbornness and a complex that has been created in many americans that allow them to believe their ideas and they themselves are better then the majority of the rest (the they are always right, everyone else is always wrong mentality) just read a few posts in this forum and you will see that mentality in abundance



many people were raised in a era that was anti everything, fear and panic gripped the nation and people made hasty decisions to gain control, in doing so, there was a great deal of false propaganda and blatant lies that shaped the minds of many



now those people are so far gone, there isnt anything you can do to convince them of the benefits, or even of the fact that keeping it illegal is causing more harm then good even if no medical benefits were involved



there is a thread on ats now about brainwashing from the tv, well its not just the tv that can brainwash you, many little "nazis" have been created that step in line with what they have been told for decades and now nothing will shut them up except a massive all out war


that war is now taking place, truth will prevail, one day we will look back on these threads and be perplexed at how much ignorance there was involving this subject and how much ignorance there has been in name of the control of this substance


it honestly scares me that we have a democracy when seeing how easy it is to brainwash the public for so long regarding a topic that is so obviously corrupted


marijuana is just one small thing, imagine how many other areas this is taking place in involving other parts of our laws and politics

this nation has been brainwashed for a long time, but they are obviously coming out of the coma as states with reform now number in the double digits and is still rising

like it or not tho, slowly buts surely marijuana reform is coming and there isnt a damn thing anyone can do about it, at this point there would have to be a very significant new study that takes place in order to reverse the trend of gaining acceptance across the United States of America

the irony of it all

reply to post by zaiger


I am sorry you were not able to understand this thread.

It's point was WHY is it illegal not how or even if it should be legal.

I personally believe it IS a conspiracy from many different area's, cotton grower/zanex
manufactures (a multi-billion dollar drug).

Basically, I think it is a financial issues that we use the excuse of moral issue to keep down.

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
There is no genuine issue but ONE
Control of the Human mind...

I agree to a certain extent...

Altering ones perspective is fine IMHO if it's done with moderation.

Key phrase [Moderation] The issues arise when individuals are under the influence of various mood/thought and to some extent maybe spiritual altering substances. More often than not it's not the "USE" that creates problems it's what many individuals do while under the "Influence".

For example let's discuss a legal substance Alcohol. Ask any recovering "Alcoholic" about their experiences with Black outs. In a black out they appear to be functioning and even drive while intoxicated. Meanwhile if you ask them about their activities the next day they cannot remember.

I'm not saying all substances have that effect but while under the influence humans tend to do/say things they normally wouldn't do.

Just my 2 cents.