GIVE me Liberty? Not necessary ...

Everyone should be well aware of Patrick Henry's well known line ... "Give me liberty or give me death."

I have to admit that I do not at all agree with this line of thinking and find it to be a chain on the mind MUCH more powerful and *worse* than any bonds that could be placed on my wrist. If I choose death because "our" perception of freedom is being threatened, then I am certain to not have liberty ever. There is not liberty in death and rather it is the end of Life.

Now, being Jewish, I view Life as being far too precious to end it simply because of obligation in Life (no matter the obligation). Then, what is liberty if it is not Liberty of the Mind? Is not Life meant to be a struggle .... if there was never struggle, then we would not place any value on this mystery we are in. Wisdom has never come by choosing death over life. In other words, ignorance should never be chosen over knowledge.

What do you all have to say on this given that so many here are preaching that we should sacrifice Life to maintain this false perception of Liberty? Do not forget ... Patrick Henry did not even his own self die to maintain freedom. Only ever he said words that have since been PERCEIVED to be wisdom ... and any truly wise person knows that wisdom will only come via experience.

I am taking the firm stance that to choose Death over Life for WHATEVER REASON will only ever be done by the mind bound to the chains of its own ignorance. I am curious to hear why someone would think otherwise.



[edit on 11-12-2009 by justamomma]

Keep in mind the Henry was a polititian and By "Give me liberty or give me death" he meant "do what I say or I will send an army of young men to fight for my will".

He was governor for most of the war and mainly sent his militias to attack Indians and insure slave quietude.

i disagree.

when making the stand for liberty, you may have to give your life but what about yur children? dont you care what kind of life they have or grow up in?

Also, you stated that you are jewish.

Imagine if every Jew that was rounded up decided to fight instead of be complacent. The nazis would have never been able to do near what they did.

But instead they still met an ill and untimely fate, with no help to themselves.

reply to post by justamomma


It is pretty simple in my eyes.
Liberty is defined by the pursuit of happiness (at least in this context)...
Those who wish to impede your pursuit of happiness have no right to do so.

They in fact, are "evil". Or, in the wrong.
The pursuit of happiness is most definately a worthwhile pursuit.

However, being of the Jewish faith, I wouldn't expect you to understand this. Afterall, your doctrine has taught you that man is flawed from his very inception and that he is born for no purpose other than to serve the needs of someone who is somehow greater.

The only way I can see your line of reasoning even being somewhat logical is by saying that God has directed those men who would impede your pursuit and therefore you should just sit back and take it.

A few things are also true through this logic... 1) Nobody is accountable for anything they do. 2) If I choose to die in said pursuit, it was destined to be.

In the end, I am entitled, as a human being, to pursue whatever means I wish as long as it doesn't impede the livelihood of another... and therein, so long as their pursuits aren't impeding another... and so on and so forth.

Original sin does have some merit. We are all born flawed, but the wish for death in the face of evil isn't bad at all, in my eyes. Afterall, as a man of faith, I understand that if my death comes by way of honorable means, I will be rewarded.

Originally posted by urwatu8
Keep in mind the Henry was a polititian and By "Give me liberty or give me death" he meant "do what I say or I will send an army of young men to fight for my will".

He was governor for most of the war and mainly sent his militias to attack Indians and insure slave quietude.

... Very good!

reply to post by justamomma


I believe you are misinterpreting his intentions behind the statement.

Of course, all quotes can be interpreted differently.

My interpretation-I would rather die, than to live in a state of slavery and not have the RIGHT of self determination.

Meaning, the way government is going, over half of what we earn, goes to their vision of how things should be.

Another quote I love-"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace.We seek not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams

What he was saying was this he would die for the cause and not think twice about it. It was a rally cry and a good one at that. He did not mean that if he did not have liberty he would blow his brains out. A perfect example of this and I mean no disrespect because you are a Jew was what happened to the Jewish people in Nazis Germany instead of fighting they turned each other in and died on their knees. Why do you think Israeli is so strong minded today they will never forget. I also believe we have the same problem in the USA. I hope you did not take this personal I did not intend it as such

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by justamomma

 

Original sin does have some merit. We are all born flawed, but the wish for death in the face of evil isn't bad at all, in my eyes. Afterall, as a man of faith, I understand that if my death comes by way of honorable means, I will be rewarded.

And if not in Heaven, here on earth, for your sacrifice could and would inspire others to fulfill their dreams.

Freedom!

reply to post by endisnighe


Yeah, it is kinda' funny. You know, I don't have "faith" as many would consider it. Yet I still have it.
I still hold that in the end, there is justification in this world...or more aptly, in this universe. However, I lack the faith that this is decided by a man in the sky who measures all of this crap real-time...
I think we do the measuring ourselves.

And yeah, actions speak louder than words. One who is willing to stand up and say NO to those who wish to control his brothers will certainly be favored through either "divine" justification, or collectively as an example of something worthy of looking up towards.

There is good in this world, and it is worth fighting for... (cheesy Tolkien rip-off)

As long as you hold these truths to be self evident you will always be free. We live in historic times my friends and never in our lifetimes have the truths they hold and the truths we hold been so far apart.

One of the nice things about having liberty is that you can make hypothetical resolutions about what, if anything, you would die for. But Mr Henry wasn't describing his preference between dying for liberty and living without it. Those were not the options available to him.

He was instead being brief and blunt about which he chose between the two options that were actually available to him. At the time he spoke, there remained some uncertainty about whether or not the Crown would suppress the American revolution. So, his report of his choice had an or in it.

Mr Henry could have remained loyal (leading to political reward or something less pleasant, depending on the fortunes of war), or else to rebel (leading to liberty or death, depending also on those same fortunes). He chose to rebel.

That much he could choose. How his choice turned out for him, he would have to wait and see. But that his choice was potentially fatal, whichever way he chose, was simply a ground fact.

As to Mr Henry's dealings with natives and slaves, there is a lot of innocent blood shed in the American story. So, too, in the stories of other nations. So what?

reply to post by Subjective Truth

NICE

Originally posted by wx4caster
i disagree.

when making the stand for liberty, you may have to give your life but what about yur children? dont you care what kind of life they have or grow up in?

Also, you stated that you are jewish.

Imagine if every Jew that was rounded up decided to fight instead of be complacent. The nazis would have never been able to do near what they did.

But instead they still met an ill and untimely fate, with no help to themselves.

Hosea 4:6

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by justamomma

 

It is pretty simple in my eyes.
Liberty is defined by the pursuit of happiness (at least in this context)...
Those who wish to impede your pursuit of happiness have no right to do so.

They in fact, are "evil". Or, in the wrong.
The pursuit of happiness is most definately a worthwhile pursuit.

However, being of the Jewish faith, I wouldn't expect you to understand this. Afterall, your doctrine has taught you that man is flawed from his very inception and that he is born for no purpose other than to serve the needs of someone who is somehow greater.

See what I mean that God's People are destroyed because of lack of knowledge. You know nothing, then, about the Jewish to say that we believe this way. We know otherwise.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV
Psalm 34:11-13

What you said above is the perfect example of what I am trying to get across ... that we add sin to sin. You are reacting off of what you think you know of our People and your judgment is not at all accurate.

The only way I can see your line of reasoning even being somewhat logical is by saying that God has directed those men who would impede your pursuit and therefore you should just sit back and take it.

A few things are also true through this logic... 1) Nobody is accountable for anything they do. 2) If I choose to die in said pursuit, it was destined to be.

In the end, I am entitled, as a human being, to pursue whatever means I wish as long as it doesn't impede the livelihood of another... and therein, so long as their pursuits aren't impeding another... and so on and so forth.

Once dead, indeed you are no longer accountable for anything. Where we go wrong is to not think of who WILL be held accountable after ... our children and their children.

Indeed, the Jewish People have given themselves over to the will of God (do NOT mistake the Jewish People to be those under the flag of the state of Israel, Psalm 119:85-87)... we trust the Day as it is put before us. This is how we have remained a People despite being in Diaspora for almost 2,000 years. Remarkable, no? Then, Isaiah 53 ... particularly verse 11 ... we come with the knowlede that justifies.

For instance, what happened in the holocaust, beauty came forth from the mouth of a babe ... Anne Frank .... "And finally I twist my heart round again, so that the bad is on the outside and the good is on the inside, and keep on trying to find a way of becoming what I would so like to be, and could be, if there weren't any other people living in the world."

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by justamomma

 

I believe you are misinterpreting his intentions behind the statement.

Not at all .... read the 2nd post. That is one who has taken the time to educate their mind of what it was behind the words brought forth of Patrick Henry.

Of course, all quotes can be interpreted differently.

And this is where we find ourselves in trouble ... to not understand what brought forth the words. They were brought forth from another mind and thus, any interpretation aside from the truth is to lack knowlege.

My interpretation-I would rather die, than to live in a state of slavery and not have the RIGHT of self determination.

Then again, you are bound to the chains that he has successfully placed on the minds of many. And as I said that is worse than any chains that could be placed on your wrists.

Meaning, the way government is going, over half of what we earn, goes to their vision of how things should be.

Any leader over a People is there because of the will of the People. Then, there are lessons that you must learn from the leader you are under if you find yourself to be at "war" with them in your own mind.

Choosing death over the knowledge is, again, only going to continue the cycle that we are stuck in ... the Pattern ... "the wheel within the wheel" as spoken of even in Ezekiel. Spread the seeds of knowledge that you learn under your leader and rather you will have acted instead of being a victim of reaction.

Another quote I love-"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace.We seek not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams

And yet what do YOU know of his life? Obviously not much to have not understood the manipulative tone of this quote. Quite hypocritical of him to have said considering ....

[edit on 12-12-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


Yes, it would have been a much nicer world if we Americans would have just acquiesced to the throne.

See, you agree with one poster because he interprets a quote to what you believe to be true, and then throw aside the most profound quote because you do not believe in it. That is hypocrisy.

If you really believe that the founding fathers and all of the rebels of the American Revolution did it for themselves and not for their families and countrymen, you are delusional.

I, have no children and I would gladly die to ensure that my family and friends would not be conscripted to the Globalized Tyranny soon to be unleashed on the world.

Therefore this will be my last comment here.

I guess we must agree to disagree.

And I will post it again-

Another quote I love-"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace.We seek not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams

And one more favorite of mine-

The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as his liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act, as the destroyer of liberty. Plainly the sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of the word liberty; and precisely the same difference prevails today among human creatures.

[edit on 12/12/2009 by endisnighe]

By the way, "star" for all the replies. I appreciate those of you taking your time to give your view of what I have in my mind. One thing that I have come to know is that no view is worth holding on to that can't stand up to "criticism" ... thus, why I have brought it forth, even bluntly. I am trying to reply to each of the posts as I can .. sorry it is taking some time to get around to them. I have, though, read them all and am enjoying to hear what is in your mind in this regard. Again, thank you for the time to offer your perspectives.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


So, out of curiousity, are you trying to tell me that the Jewish faith doesn't teach original sin?

I don't care a bit about the Nazi Holocaust comments, they have absolutely no bearing on the subject.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
What he was saying was this he would die for the cause and not think twice about it. It was a rally cry and a good one at that. He did not mean that if he did not have liberty he would blow his brains out. A perfect example of this and I mean no disrespect because you are a Jew was what happened to the Jewish people in Nazis Germany instead of fighting they turned each other in and died on their knees. Why do you think Israeli is so strong minded today they will never forget. I also believe we have the same problem in the USA. I hope you did not take this personal I did not intend it as such

I am not offended at all by what you said because you have presented me with an opportunity to teach you of the chain that enslaves the Mind of Man.

You have no problem to be honest with what you see and I appreciate that. I am curious, were the German People blood thirsty monsters who had insatiable appetites when it came to the Jewish People? What do you say to this?

Alot of people do not know this but the jewish people could loan money at an interest rate while others could not during the weimar republic and the that pissed alot of people off. Remember germany was having a very hard economic and social problems at the time which gave rise to the socialist party (Hitlers third reich). That is why I am very afraid of what is happing across this world right now with the rise of socialism. It is a bad thing and history does repeat itself. I gave just one way of looking at it this issue is very wide and deep with alot of hurt on both sides. I beleive this is why isreal is so inclusive and almost paranoid today they will never die on their knees again. I hope americans do not have to learn the same lessons they have but like I said history repeats itself.