The Fat Lady just sang.....

reply to post by endisnighe

The Japanese model isn't applicable and you know it smart-aleck.
You know why? Because the Japanese abandoned their attempts to kick start their economy to control their deficits:

"Adam Posen, deputy director of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, wrote in his September 1998 book, Restoring Japan's Economic Growth, that "the 1995 stimulus package ... did result in solid growth in 1996, demonstrating that fiscal policy does work when it is tried. As on earlier occasions in the 1990s, however, the positive response to fiscal stimulus was undercut by fiscal contraction in 1996 and 1997.""

Also, I see a bunch of folks suggesting that the Chinese now own us because of our huge deficits. Don't believe it. We own the Chinese... if we default, who loses that money: China It is definitely in their best interests to loan us money and to ensure we remain solvent to pay it back. The Chinese are smart and they know a good investment when they see one, and despite the falling dollar, the US is still a solid investment.

The old saying: You owe the bank 300K the bank owns you. You owe the bank 300 million, you own the bank. It's true.

reply to post by jam321

I'm not sure but I think the administration was given pretty broad discretionary power to use the funds as they see fit. Not as broad as Sec. Paulson wanted when he made the Bush admin request, but still pretty broad.

I might be wrong.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Do you all have a better idea of a way to fix the country?

Because, by all means, I don't think sitting around and doing nothing will be of great assistance.


as a matter of fact I do. keep the damn govt out of our business and watch the country grow.

reply to post by watcher2

Great idea:

I know, let's deregulate the banking industry, opening the way for banks to expand into incredibly risky investments based on a ponzi scheme bubble... say artificially inflated housing prices.

Then lets allow banks to create an entire industry allowing investors to bet AGAINST companies success. We'll call these investments hedge funds.

And then let's watch as some unscrupulous commentators (heavily invested commentators) to go on TV and use their status to manipulate these same markets to ensure they make millions in the companies they have bet against while our housing prices, and 401k's and futures fall into the crapper.

Oh wait, that already happened.

Sorry, but a little bit of regulation in my opinion is a good thing.

reply to post by kenochs



I'm not sure but I think the administration was given pretty broad discretionary power to use the funds as they see fit. Not as broad as Sec. Paulson wanted when he made the Bush admin request, but still pretty broad.

I might be wrong.


you know I seem to remember that any returned funds had to be put towards the federal deficit. remember it being a law.

reply to post by watcher2


ahh got it. It's not a law that it has to go back to lower the deficit.

"Boehner criticized plans by House Democrats to use some of the unspent money from the Troubled Asset Relief Program to finance new job-creation programs. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat, said yesterday legislation is being written to use some TARP funds to help local communities and small businesses. "

There's still 300 billion left, and the TARP expires at years end though Timmy G. can extend the deadline if he deems it necessary.

reply to post by kenochs


key word being little, not owning or taxing to death.

reply to post by watcher2

My taxes haven't gone up. And if this tax credit gets passed they'll go down.
What am I missing here?

reply to post by ravenshadow13

Do you all have a better idea of a way to fix the country?

Yes, but you and especially TPTB will not like it.

#1) Replacement birthrate is 2.1, the USA has a BR=1.3. So first kick all the non-citizens out. Anchor kids included. For legals the kid can choose to return at age 18 but not before. Without all the excess people the strain on our health system, roads, schools, and the environment is reduced. so is CO2. Companies are given three months to replace foreign workers with citizens.

#2) Make prostitution, drugs and gambling legal. It should be run by the state just like ABC stores. Tobacco should also be included in the group. Politician are mobsters anyway so we might as well make it "transparent" This should be the only source of state revenue allowed.

#3) Revamp welfare. You get kicked off unless there is an overwhelming reason not to. One kid free for a year the others goes up for adoption and you get temp sterilized until you are off the system. Welfare payments are to be BELOW minimum wage so welfare is no longer in competition for low paying jobs. You had better be off the system within a year or on your death bed. Social workers are rewarded based on the number of clients the return to work. Spend the money on re-education not welfare. If needed bring back the county farm/homes where those without jobs can go for a roof over their head, where they can grow their own food, learn skills and not feel like leeches on the system. Kids would be a heck of a lot better off at a farm weeding the gardens and feeding the chicken than in a inner city government project in fear of being raped and beaten.

Banks lend money that does not exist. the reserve is now 0 to 3% so we are just being ripped off big time. [Banks have a max of three dollars and lend you a hundred]

#4) Revamp credit card debt. If the original amount is paid it is wiped. Otherwise rates are no higher than 8% on the amount not paid.

#5) Revamp Mortgages. The 1913 fed reserve had a reserve of 60% if I recall correctly. Recalculate the loans to that amount. For example if the reserve amount at the time of the loan was 6% instead of owing $100,000 you now owe $10,000.
All are fixed rate at no more than 8%.

(THAT I feel is very generous to a bunch of thieves who intentionally crashed our economy. I would prefer charges of treason and hangings)

#6) Get rid of most of the regulations that hamper small business. Slam the revolving door shut between transnational Corporations and the government bureaucracy that is supposed to police them. POLICE the bureaucracies. A citizens panel composed of small businessman in that field should review complaints of suspicious practices by agents.

#7) Go to a flat 15% sales tax across the board. The interest paid to the federal reserve on the money loaned to the US government gets stopped. The money never existed so we the tax payers do not owe a dime.


Once you cut the red tape, remove the banker leeches and Corporations can no longer hire cheap foreign labor to replace Americans, I think you would see a major turn around.

Looks like Congress would have to pass a new piece of legislation if they want to use the bailout money.

Obama said he would work with Congress to approve legislation that would allow the use of TARP funds for other purposes.

The TARP statute said funds repaid by banks should go to deficit reduction, and Republicans have criticized Obama and Democrats for saying they’ll use leftover funds to create jobs. House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) on Tuesday called the idea “repulsive.”

thehill.com...

Kenochs...

It is good to come to a place like this to discuss issues in a logical, rational, unemotional way. That is what gets ideas out there.
I am under the impression that you have full faith in the powers of the government and that they will "take care" of all of us. You seem to be very well versed in the goings on of the administration and very knowledgeable about the policies that are at hand.
My point is this. The current system is not working. It is time for a change.
I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the FED is not a government agency and they are not unlike a pawn broker supplying the drug dealers with their drugs. The drug dealers go out and distribute drugs for a profit and then they come back to the drug users to collect the profit. That is the way the government is run and we end up paying for all the drugs...whether we do them or not!
You say we had a surplus just a mere 10 years ago? We have NEVER had a surplus. We have been in bankruptcy since 1932. You cannot have a surplus if you are in bankruptcy no matter what the numbers from the government show.
Please feel free to google it and see for yourself. www.barefootsworld.net...

The current system is not working and it is digging us deeper in debt by the minute and it is impossible to ever pay off the interest on the debt. Spew all the government supplied numbers you want but it will not get us out of this mess. We are mislead by the media, the government, religion, etc., etc.
If Washington was wiped off the map tomorrow, what exactly would change in your neighborhood? You would still go to work less encumbered, you would still go to the store less encumbered, you would still go on vacation less encumbered and that big sucking sound would be gone from the pit of D.C.

Raven...
I am not a keyboard cowboy that does nothing. I have gone out and tried to make changes thru the appropriate avenues to no avail. You can't work against a system that is so big and corrupt that you get thrown under the bus everytime you make a stand.
.
Changes? How about these for a start.

Stop income taxes for one year. None goes to pay for anything other than the interest on the debt so it won't do too much harm for one year.
All government employees, and I mean ALL, take one year of NO salary. Let's see who REALLY loves their job.
Stop the lobbyists for one year.
Stop all government programs for one year.
No military spending for one year.
Withdraw ALL troops for one year.
If the plan doesn't work, you can send them back in if need be.
Congress passes no new laws for one year.
Gas prices go to $1.00 a gallon for the next year.
Consumer prices are frozen for one year at manufacturers cost.
No foreclosures or interest on the mortgage for one year.
Only corporations pay taxes for one year at the appropriate rate.
Shut down the MSM for one year.
Real estate prices are frozen for one year.

Now there is some real change that will get the wheels turning again. Just think if we had done it a year ago. Where would we be?

We can only guess, but I am confident we would be better off than we are right now.

Care to start?
Let's all stop paying taxes and see what happens...I'll go first.

peas

reply to post by crimvelvet


You've got my vote. The time for the welfare free ride is over, you get rid of the illegals there'd be plenty of jobs for those on welfare.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Yep, stop spending money and start regulating prostitution and drugs. It will be similar to Amsterdam!

reply to post by ravenshadow13


The RIGHT way to do this requires sound economics free of political pressures. The President is not the Commander-in-Chief of the economy and the Federal Government has no authority to attempt to fill in the shortfalls. It only winds up hitting you and I in the pocket. The right thing to do is not easy, but it is THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Shrink the government:

End the wars, eliminate the Federal Reserve, the IRS, the DEA, the ATF, and DHS. Phase out most entitlement programs(Since they're all in debt anyway), pay down debt, and rewrite the tax code so it isn't 80,000 pages long.

Respect the Constitution, and return to it.

If you expect the government to save us every time, then expect the government to control us more and more every time they find a justification for saving us.

Does anyone else see the irony of all this?

We ATS'ers can come to a forum like this and come up with these ideas that have been put forth, for FREE. Yet, our elected officials get paid to come up with the same old rhetoric as always.

"Spend our way out of the recession"..... hmmmm

Maybe people should try drinking their way out of alcoholism.

Speed up to avoid a ticket.

Have more sex to avoid STD.

Drink some more coffee to calm down.

Do more drugs to kick a drug habit.

No one in gov't seems to be able to go with the thought of, "Focus on the solution and not the problem".

I am capable of governing myself and certainly don't need, or want, some Waxman or Pelosi dictating what I can or cannot do in my life. Unfortunately, they do it anyway and they do it against my will.

I have a simple solution. We don't need to depend on a set of laws or even a "constitution" to have a society we can all live in that will suit everyone.

If we could have a gov't that would abide by these "rules", life would be grand.

1. Always tell the truth...........(Can you even imagine what that would do to Washington?)

2. Do not violate the rights of your fellow man. Never impose YOUR will on others. (WOW!! That would stop every war and all police abuse)

3. If you have a belief in god, keep it to yourself. (Holy Cow!!! (sorry) this would really be big!!!)

Now how hard is that?

While we are bombarded with Tiger stories to keep us diverted, the gov't is having behind door meetings that we only hear about later, that directly affect some aspects of our daily lives, yet we seem powerless to stop it.
Guess what?..There is a way to slow down the train. There is a way to make your voice heard and your presence felt. There is a way to take control.

Wanna know what it is?

peas

The reason it's so easy to come up with 'genius solutions' here on ATS is that things are not quite as black-and-white, not quite as simple as some believe. Not to make excuses for a corrupted and ineffectual government, but that doesn't make the monday-morning-quarterbacks right either.

Your examples, drink your way out of alcoholism, etc. are downright stupid. Sorry, no offense intended, but they are in no way comparable to the economy. To expand the economy you HAVE to spend --- in one way or another --- by definition. Cut taxes, free-up money for spending but that comes at the expense of tax revenues. As spending and the economy expand so will tax revenues. Spend to create jobs, money comes from the tax revenues. Either way moeny is coming out of the tax base whether by the right hand or the left. Yes, the system is screwed-up and has been mismanaged but it is the system within which we function. Unfortunately.

The idea that we can all just get along without any oversight or regulation is naive in the extreme. There will ALWAYS be some group of people that will engineer ways to take advantage of others. Look at the economic meltdown. Wall Street and the banking industry were left to 'self-regulate'. How has that worked out? If everyone gave a rats ass about eberyone else it would work. But you aren't going to change human nature.

What we need is iron-clad political accountability. Politicians and the government need to be held legally acountable for their actions and inactions. They lie to drag us into some uber-expensive wars where a small number of private companies make immense profits and then just shrug their shoulders. No accountability. The banking and investment industries are running amok and government oversight doesn't bother to act. No accountability. But there are people who are getting obscenely wealthy as a result. Coincidence? I doubt it.

reply to post by theonlyrusty


I agree, a nice discussion is always fun.

But to your points:

"I am under the impression that you have full faith in the powers of the government and that they will "take care" of all of us."

Actually, I don't have faith in any entity, but I try not to be myopic about taxes, and the things that taxes provide us (like the FDA, Interstate highways, (generally) clean water and food, (generally) safe toys and paints, and the big winner the FAA, which keeps the skies extraordinarily safe).

You say
"The current system is not working. It is time for a change."

I say
(we got a change in 2009 with a new president, and this new president is doing a lot of new things, and so far there seems to be some proof that they're working, the economy is sluggishly rebounding thanks to a massive infusion of cash from the Federal govt. The consequences are a unusually high deficit.

You say
"I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the FED is not a government agency and they are not unlike a pawn broker supplying the drug dealers with their drugs. The drug dealers go out and distribute drugs for a profit and then they come back to the drug users to collect the profit. That is the way the government is run and we end up paying for all the drugs...whether we do them or not!"

I say
I'm not sure I buy the analogy, but I accept that the FED isn't a government entity, but I also suggest that no-one gripes about the FED when things are going smoothly, and deficits are low.

You say:
"You say we had a surplus just a mere 10 years ago? We have NEVER had a surplus. We have been in bankruptcy since 1932. You cannot have a surplus if you are in bankruptcy no matter what the numbers from the government show. Please feel free to google it and see for yourself. www.barefootsworld.net..."

I say
I think we're talking about different surpluses. In my mind the surplus is the government's ability to pay down it's national debt as opposed to adding to it when the Government takes in more than it spends. But technically you're right, the national debt is and has been with us for a long time. But I think we're talking apples and oranges. I don't see the national debt as such a huge problem, I see an inability to pay it down yearly as the bigger problem.

You Say:
"The current system is not working and it is digging us deeper in debt by the minute and it is impossible to ever pay off the interest on the debt. Spew all the government supplied numbers you want but it will not get us out of this mess. We are mislead by the media, the government, religion, etc., etc.
If Washington was wiped off the map tomorrow, what exactly would change in your neighborhood? You would still go to work less encumbered, you would still go to the store less encumbered, you would still go on vacation less encumbered and that big sucking sound would be gone from the pit of D.C."

I say:
Here's where we part ways significantly. If Washington was wiped off the map tomorrow, we'd be in big trouble. Like I said the government does a lot of things really well, at their best they help keep our air, water, food, cars, homes, paints, toys,work places, roads, skies, and most importantly MONEY (via the FDIC) safe. The people I really don't trust are the bankers, lenders, corporate hacks whose only concern is profit. I'm a fan of capitalism but unchecked capitalism devalues the worker to such a high degree, and we have so many workers right now the tendency to devalue them is HIGH. Government at its best acts as a check on corporate malfeasance, and the natural capitalist tendency to congregate capital into an all-consuming monopoly.

my two cents.


[edit on 9-12-2009 by kenochs]

reply to post by watcher2

as a matter of fact I do. keep the damn govt out of our business and watch the country grow.

Bernie Madoff loved your idea, so did AIG. They absolutely loved the idea of government staying out of your business.

Originally posted by theonlyrusty

Changes? How about these for a start.

Stop income taxes for one year. None goes to pay for anything other than the interest on the debt so it won't do too much harm for one year.

Yes and meanwhile all infra-structure gets devoluted because of no funding (to pay for materials at least since you propose no salary for government employees).

All government employees, and I mean ALL, take one year of NO salary. Let's see who REALLY loves their job.

There is a difference between loving your job and be capable to have a normal life. I have already work on the public sector for 2,5 months without payment. I lived on my savings.In the end, when i started getting paid i didnt have even money to pay one more month of rent. Nevermind a whole year.

Stop the lobbyists for one year.

Agree 100%. In my country we dont have them and dont need them.

Stop all government programs for one year.

Thats a bit extreme and generalistic, but i get the spirit and somewhat agree.

No military spending for one year.Withdraw ALL troops for one year. If the plan doesn't work, you can send them back in if need be.

Agree 100% again.

Congress passes no new laws for one year.

Quite impossible. The measures you are proposing will create new issues that will need to be dealt juridically.

Gas prices go to $1.00 a gallon for the next year.

This would mean to subsidize Gas. It would be a burden on the state. And you proposed NO taxes in one year. Where will the money come from? And then you complain government is over spending.

Consumer prices are frozen for one year at manufacturers cost.

This would put a final nail in the economy. Where is the incentive of firm owners to produce? Their profits would be ZERO. Unemployment would rise like mad.

No foreclosures or interest on the mortgage for one year.

The only you can do this is by subsidizing banks. That or they would close = More unemployment

Only corporations pay taxes for one year at the appropriate rate.

This would lead to an effort to reduce costs = More unemployment

Shut down the MSM for one year.

More unemployment

Real estate prices are frozen for one year.

Maybe a good idea.Maybe.. Would have to think more about the consequences.

In the end your suggestions are just a rant that looks at the economy from the consumer point of view, missing the bigger picture. Also, its ironic that you advocate less government interference. And what you propose is even more government action, by mandating stuff


[edit on 9-12-2009 by Picao84]

So, without Washington in your life, your air, water and car will be affected?
Really? In the span of one year? Everything would go to hell in a handbasket that quick?
I don't think so. I know it would make people more "independent" and accountable for their own actions.
You will never hold anyone in government accountable for their actions. That is the beauty of government...no accountability. That's like making "citizens arrest" on police. It just doesn't happen because people have no backbone to stand up to the very entity they believe will help them.

So what you are saying is we need more government intervention, we need more tax base, we need more regulations and we need to spend more money to get out of this mess. I'll try and think about that one for a while and see if I can stay away from the thought that it might lead to fascism/tyranny. I'll get back to you on that one.

So let me get this straight. The Fed Reserve loans the government all of it's funds. They expect to be paid back with interest. They tell us how much the money is worth, how we can spend it, what part of it will be taxed, who gets to spend it and who is entitled to it. Hmmmm...Sounds like a rigged game to me.

There are people in the world that have gone completely haywire with their financial situation and it led to their bankruptcy. They started off fresh and new and some will tell you it was the best thing that ever happened to them. What they were doing before was just not working and it came back and bit them in the ass.

I think that is where this country is right now. There is not enough money in circulation or in credit to even pay off the interest on the debt. How do you see this scenario ending?

peas