GW Alarmists: Quit using Plastics, or go away.

I guees you'd have to anyways, as a serious % of your PC is made of plastics. Imagining the world without plastic, is like imagining it without gasolene. Both are products from the pumping of the same nasty stuff. There are some weak natural alternatives to some types of plastic, but you have little hope to replace all plastics without 'detrimental' crude oil.

Have fun at the hospital wihout plastics. How are the rangers to study and help the polar bears without it? Glass syringe projectile darts dont sound like a good idea to me.

It's just too bad the society and economy are 'throw away' in regards to too many products (including the society itself), as so much is being wasted. But both plastics and fuels would be more expensive if you undid either, as you get them both from pumping the same crude oil.

And something tells me that if we dumped the spoiled fuel distillates into the earth / water to dump the byproduct without burnign it and releasing the CO2, e'd be far worse off than by burning it.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

while there certainly are applications which require the use of plastics, for reasons of chemical resistance and so on, in many cases, substitutes made from plants would remedy a lot of problems, mainly because they decompose a lot faster and shouldn't emit fumes if properly implemented.

'liquid wood'

ht tp://features.csmonitor.com/innovation/2009/02/11/could-‘liquid-wood’-replace-plastic

(link breaks on parsing, please c&p)

and various others

www.globalhemp.com...

www.wyff4.com...

www.greencarcongress.com...


the issue many people tend to overlook is the composition of petroleum. iow, cut back on plastic, get more residual waste or invest in more complex refining. of course, widescale adoption of plant fiber could again displace food crops, which, at this point has to be avoided at pretty much any cost.

[edit on 2009.12.9 by Long Lance]

Hey thanks for responding

The Alarmists have been trying to dodge the thread for about 24 hours in hope that the thread will get pushed down the list.

Earlier this year I downloaded a UK documentary about a family who attempted to completely undue their carbon footprint. They sold their car, stop buying anything made with plastic (including toothpaste because of the tubes), no new toys for the kids. Rigorous effort they did. In the end they hadnt nearly made the impact they hoped for. The wife was pissed.

I cant recall the name of it, and its buried in my absurd data archives, but I will dig it up and post it soon...

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


Not using plastics would mean using instead:

- Wood (Don't we already have problems with excessive deforestation?)
- Glass (which is energetically expensive to produce and not very safe, takes forever to biodegrade)
- Metals (energetically very expensive to manufacture)
- Plant-derived plastics (not as good quality as petroleum-derived plastics and as with bio-fuels, makes inefficient use of lands which could be used for food plantations instead)

Just too many things make extensive use of plastics; it's simply not possible to get rid of it unless everybody agrees to live at much lower standards of life.

I think that proper recycling should be encouraged/enforced instead.

[edit on 2009-12-9 by Shirakawa]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
I guees you'd have to anyways, as a serious % of your PC is made of plastics. Imagining the world without plastic, is like imagining it without gasolene.

I can imagine life one hundred years ago. When we had no mass produced plastics. Sure, it is easy. I can imagine too, a rather more balanced proposition to the problem rather then suggesting that the only solution to the problem is to give ALL plastics away. it is moronic and ridiculous to suggest that even AGW "alarmists are suggesting this or even asking people to go to these extremes.
I do however see the necessity of those with really weak arguments having to resort to statements or challenges like the title of your OP, because you really have no Idea at all. Kind of like a plastic argument, easily manufactured, used and thrown away only to gather in the corners and nocks of really nice places like ATS, making them look ugly.

But to answer your question, I can Imagine going to the beach and not seeing an empty coke bottle. Imagine Hiking and not seeing a discarded Evian water bottle, bottle lids, or take away containers. Imagine that without plastic. Imagine that there is an entire area of the Ocean covered in plastic waste. Imagine Birds with their stomachs full of plastic bits and pieces. Imagine the world without plastic. I can quite easily. You make it sound like we actually would not survive without it! For christ sakes it is only 100 years old as a product. Please.

Both are products from the pumping of the same nasty stuff. There are some weak natural alternatives to some types of plastic, but you have little hope to replace all plastics without 'detrimental' crude oil.

We can replace a lot of plastic. There are great and strong alternatives to many mundane plastics that we come across as part of daily activities.

Bottles etc. Stuff like that that is mass produced and makes up the vast amounts of waste that we see in land fill etc. PET bottles are now heavily recycled and there is a big movement against BPA in plastics which is seeing many baby, child and junior bottle ranges changing back to glass, aluminum or other materials that are recyclable and less detrimental.
Living Plastic free.
www.bestgreenhometips.com...
plasticfree.blogspot.com...
lifewithoutplastic.com...
lifewithoutplastic.com...
blogs.e-rockford.com...
Town Gives Up Plastics Water Bottles
You don't have to eradicate every little aspect but you can remove a lot.

Have fun at the hospital without plastics.How are the rangers to study and help the polar bears without it? Glass syringe projectile darts dont sound like a good idea to me.

we wouldn't need to dart Polar Bears if they were not in trouble. Think about that.
Plastics have made hospitals much safer as well as reduced costs in cleaning etc due to the disposal nature of many products. But there are companies that innovate ways in reducing or reusing these plastics. As with all things in LIFE, necessity is the mother of invention. We have survived without plastics for thousands and thousands of years. I think we will do OK. We just need to focus on replacing something, something that familiarity has breed contempt in people like you. I remember in hospitals when people used to say, "what will we do without CFC's?" And I don't mean like in the 80's. I mean now in this decade. CFC's where/are used in inhalers for people with asthma and other respiratory problems. HFA are now heralding a new method, that has zero environmental impact. Whilst this may not be on the scale of plastics the parallels are almost the same. CFC's were a man made tech breakthrough transfered to the medical industry, as well as many others that had numerous benefits, but then became an environmental concern. But we have overcome these with innovation. Plastics will be no different. Remember when Thermometers were full of mercury? As with any product when it become more expensive or a problem, other people will solve the problem in due to personal necessity or economic motives.
HOSPITALS

I.V. equipment dots the landscape of countless movies and TV shows like E.R., House, and Grey’s Anatomy, so it’s no suprise that the ubiquitous little baggies account for a sizeable chunk of plastic medical waste from U.S. hospitals.  Now a company called Hospira, Inc. has come up with a new kind of I.V. container that could cut about 20 million pounds of that waste annually.

The company’s basic innovation is simple: its VisIV “green IV” containers are made from a multilayer plastic film that eliminates the disposable wrapper required to protect conventional IV containers from moisture.  The first generation of VisIV products was introduced in 2006 and was quickly adopted by almost 25% of U.S. hospitals, and the company has just announced a new, even more sustainable tweak to its formula.

cleantechnica.com...
www.hospira.com...

It's just too bad the society and economy are 'throw away' in regards to too many products (including the society itself), as so much is being wasted. But both plastics and fuels would be more expensive if you undid either, as you get them both from pumping the same crude oil.

I agree to an extent, so it is a matter of improving habits rather than ridiculing current habits and shrugging that we can't do without the bad habit! Because that is what it appears you would rather do.

But you are also wrong. If you do not use plastic, how would it be more expensive. If it was expensive, what would you do?
I would look for a cheap alternative or use a sustainable method?
You make it sound like we have no choices, when we do?
If a green alternatives become more appealing then people will use it. Many products are artificially low due to most Governments subsidizing fossil fuel costs in production, manufacture and transport. So products made from fossil fuel products, manufacture using power from fossil fuels and transported by fossil fuels do not carry the true value of those fossil fuels. The consumer takes for granted the artificially low prices. Alternative products seem expensive in relation to these. If the subsidies were removed the true cost would motivate consumers to look for alternatives which would then motivate manufacturers, producers and Govt. to invest in alternatives.

Here are just a few alternatives.
www.trellisearth.com...
www.inhabitat.com...
www.icis.com...
AN EXAMPLE OF CONSUMER GOODS
cleantechnica.com...

In a first for the CD industry, Victor Creative Media Co Ltd. has begun taking orders for CD/DVD cases made with rice-based plastic. While rice accounts for less than 10% of the material, the composite plastic uses significantly less fossil fuel than traditional plastic. Victor’s product has previously been used in paper fan handles and benches.

thestar.com.my.../2009/6/2/gogreenlivegreen/3986163&sec=gogreenlivegreen

Here’s something to look forward to – plastic bags that dissolve in water.

IF YOU have been feeling guilty using all those plastic bags for your groceries, a green solution is at hand. A team of seven researchers from Universiti Teknologi Petronas (UTP) has invented an award-winning material called Greenphylic Water-Soluble Degradable Plastic, a polymer similar to plastic that dilutes in water.

“Once it is commercialised and manufactured on a large scale, the cost will reduce substantially. Furthermore, (it must be highlighted that) no cost is involved in disposing of this material. We have filed for patent and are currently in the process of commerciali sing the product,” he said.

And something tells me that if we dumped the spoiled fuel distillates into the earth / water to dump the byproduct without burnign it and releasing the CO2, e'd be far worse off than by burning it.

You mean if we poured oil back into the big holes in the ground, the same big holes in the ground we pulled it out from, it would be worse.
Yeah. I can see that would be bad. They are all still hydrocarbons after all, not spoiled fuel distillates.

You seem to think that we are somehow unable to overcome a form of technology or innovation, that being plastic and the other oil.
History has shown that we do overcome problems brought on by innovations that we become reliant on, it never happens overnight, but it happens.
I find it interesting that there are those that would rather stand with apathy and encourage it with a dogma of "you'll never survive without me" rather than encourage innovation, promote those that are leading the way or highlighting alternatives that are available and working right now.

Imagine life without plastics. I can, easily. Its called Progress. Its called Hope. It is called Vision. It is called evolution.

Imagine music without Bakelite Plastic Radios.
Imagine music without Plastic Records.
Imagine music without Plastic Tapes.
Imagine music without Plastic CD's.
Imagine music without your home stereo system made with plastics.
Imagine music without Plastic iPODs.
There is just one industry that went through a revolution with plastics that now is reduced the plastic usage on such a massive scale as to not even notice it.
And this is just one industry.



[edit on 9/12/09 by atlasastro]

reply to post by atlasastro


You beat me to it... Well said... star for you

We need to "REDUCE" the amount of plastics we use. Anyone who thinks otherwise has clearly not done any research into the affects of plastics on the environment.

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


It was a BBC News reporter. He was trying to cut out anything that emitted CO2.

His reductions? A meager 20%.

...and his quality of life disproportionately suffered for it.

So it goes to show that we are already doing the best we can, and aren't nearly as wasteful as we are lead to believe.

Where things can be improved is by bouycotting supermarkets and excess packging, and recycling more, but not for the sake of emissions - just the sake of common sense.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by mirageofdeceit]

Your way too late!

Don't fret much about it either way,
I am pretty sure that plastics will outlive all of us!

Okay, whos the litter bug?

what about more natural plastics and less oil based?

Link to PDF

Even a 4th grader can make the stuff .

[edit on 9-12-2009 by DaMod]

reply to post by DaMod


So can you replace all of the plastics found in hospital with your milk & vinegar 'plastic'?

reply to post by Muckster


Are you implying that I'm implying that we should be excessive and wasteful with plastics?

[edit on 9-12-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by atlasastro
I can imagine too, a rather more balanced proposition to the problem rather then suggesting that the only solution to the problem is to give ALL plastics away. it is moronic and ridiculous to suggest that even AGW "alarmists are suggesting this or even asking people to go to these extremes.

So Alarmists wouldn't prefer we all stopped using oil and coal for energy?

But to answer your question, I can Imagine going to the beach and not seeing an empty coke bottle. Imagine Hiking and not seeing a discarded Evian water bottle, bottle lids, or take away containers. Imagine that without plastic. Imagine that there is an entire area of the Ocean covered in plastic waste. Imagine Birds with their stomachs full of plastic bits and pieces. Imagine the world without plastic. I can quite easily.

It's starting to sound like you are advocating no plastics 'allowed'...

You make it sound like we actually would not survive without it! For christ sakes it is only 100 years old as a product. Please.

And behold thats the period where the human population has 'exploded' and life expectancy and the quality of life of billions has increased enormously.

and there is a big movement against BPA in plastics which is seeing many baby, child and junior bottle ranges changing back to glass, aluminum or other materials that are recyclable and less detrimental.
Living Plastic free.
www.bestgreenhometips.com...
...
...
...
You don't have to eradicate every little aspect but you can remove a lot.

Yeah I just posted at my blog about BPA a few weeks ago. Sinister world we live in.

But I'm highly skeptical of the claims in the 2nd link there. I mean I guess if you only use filtered tap water, and paper cartons of milk all year. In her list i dont see where she says to buy plastic bottles stuff if you want, but save the containers for later use.

Still, you have to replace water filter elements roughly every year (the more you use the more you have to replace them), and after a year you end up with so many bottled as to have a lifetimes supply's worth. I should know, in my warehouse I have a refridgerator sized box I've been placing all of my plastic containers [washed out] into. Have a good 200 gallons or so worth of all different sizes and shaped containers. Will be good for if the economy dips us into a Mad Max sceanrio. I recommend eveyone with a garage do set up a huge box over in the corner to do the same.

But anyways, you're sure to not live the highest quality of life by not buying consumables if they come in plastic containers. The list I could describe would exceed 10000 characters.

Plastics have made hospitals much safer as well as reduced costs in cleaning etc due to the disposal nature of many products. But there are companies that innovate ways in reducing or reusing these plastics. As with all things in LIFE, necessity is the mother of invention. We have survived without plastics for thousands and thousands of years. I think we will do OK. We just need to focus on replacing something, something that familiarity has breed contempt in people like you.

...kids toys, tools, the mechanical elements of most consumer electronics, the safety of most consumer appliances, automobiles (have fun building these without plastics; all metal vehicles = more wasted energy), aerospace, space travel, home insulation options (save energy!), laminates (extend the lives of many surfaces), LCD screens (less mercury to have a 'picture', child safety devices, hardhats, safety glasses, fishing gear (catch your own food), agriculture (starter trays, just for starters), defense (all levels), paints and adhesives (you need nasty 2 part acrylic paints to keep all metal automobiles from rusting), bicycles, roller skates, 'razor' scooters, buckets, music (you actually argued my point with that!), ...

AHHH! The list permeates all throughout every facet of modern life, in a similar vein as to tax all carbon fuels would raise the costs of every facet of life.


Comparing CFC's and the entire universe of petro-plastics is like comparing Michael Jackson with Pantera. Same with mercury, as chemcial that could do the same thing as alcohol. Get real.

The company’s basic innovation is simple: its VisIV “green IV” containers are made from a multilayer plastic film that eliminates the disposable wrapper required to protect conventional IV containers from moisture.

Disposing of disposable wrappers doesnt undue the need of the plastic equipment. And I have disposable medical equipment, say for a direct peson to person blood transfusion, and the equipment is way beyond 75% of the total weight of the package.

And how is Holllywood going to 'sequester' used medical equipment if we dont have TV"s to watch them use the stuff?

This is pointless. Talking about ways to reduce plastic usage doesnt undue the necessity of plastics in our everyday lives. And I love how you attempt to allege I'm suggesting we be a throw away society simply for arguing the absurdity of not using petroleum.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

You can be carbon neutral and still use plastics.

Just in case you weren't aware.

You can balance it by composting, reducing paper waste, reducing the use of certain chemical products, growing your own food, recycling, planting trees, and helping the environment.


But if you see a problem and feel like picking on people, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, and therefore this thread is pointless.

Note- There are materials that mimic plastics which are made from sustainable plants. Those materials do exist.

[edit on 12/9/2009 by ravenshadow13]

So I guess they don't want electric cars built with plastic. So I guess carbon fiber would be the only choice left to keep weight down for cars to go green then.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
You can be carbon neutral and still use plastics.

Just in case you weren't aware.

You can balance it by composting, reducing paper waste, reducing the use of certain chemical products, growing your own food, recycling, planting trees, and helping the environment.

When carbon based plant materials decay they release CO2. That only offsets landfil usage. And if you can use plastics for food shipping and storage that leaves you using nearly paper only. I have a nice year round garden Except I'm forced to grow in plastic containers (tons of them, I got for free) at my workplace warehouse area. Without these plastic I wouldnt be able to grow my own food.

Having tons of food outside saves me from having to drive. But we cannot undue the necessity of driving, meaning we'll still have to pump petroleum, which inherently brings us plastics.

But if you see a problem and feel like picking on people, there's nothing I can say to change your mind, and therefore this thread is pointless.

Just trying to fuel thought and debate. Take it easy.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Ah plastic, possibly the sole reason for our existence:



"Why are we here? Plastiiiic."

On a more serious note, there are things for which plastic is necessary right now, like syringes, and things that can easily be made out of materials which are easier to recycle or reuse, like glass and metal.

How much do syringes contribute to the total plastic waste we produce? Not so much, I'd say. Most plastic products we use and throw are plastic bags and plastic bottles, which can easily and efficiently be replaced with environmental friendlier alternatives. If we want, that is.

Well I'm as guilty as everybody else, even though I bring my own shopping bags and don't normally buy any bottled drinks like sodas or water, I still end up with a huge amount of plastic wraps to throw away. But I believe we could find alternatives, if only there was a will.

Unfortunately, it had lately become unfashionable to be "green". Way to go, global warming denial movement.

I don't see a problem with plastic, i see a problem regarding recycling it. It will be a long,long time before we stop using it and a better alternative is widely available. Right now it is convenient,cheap and can be used for many things. Until the day comes where it is not used we will just have to recycle more of it and stop the negative impact it has on wildlife.

reply to post by Solomons


The problem is that most of it does not get recycled, but simply gets thrown away, creating monstrosities like this:

Great Pacific Garbage Patch

Recycling plastic is also very expensive, inefficient and possibly dangerous to our health.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss


So Alarmists wouldn't prefer we all stopped using oil and coal for energy?

What Alarmists prefer has nothing to do with what they know is an achievable reality. Are you suggesting we do absolutely nothing, are you suggesting we keep using plastics the way we do and do nothing about the waste or the cost to the environment?
We would all prefer our own ideals.

But to answer your question, I can Imagine going to the beach and not seeing an empty coke bottle. Imagine Hiking and not seeing a discarded Evian water bottle, bottle lids, or take away containers. Imagine that without plastic. Imagine that there is an entire area of the Ocean covered in plastic waste. Imagine Birds with their stomachs full of plastic bits and pieces. Imagine the world without plastic. I can quite easily.

It's starting to sound like you are advocating no plastics 'allowed'...

No, that is what you hear in your head. I am actually answering your question. I am imagining. I am not demanding anything. If this is all you have as an argument why bother dude.
Just pathetic. ''
You ask me to imagine life without plastics and I can. I can imagine life without all of this:

But to answer your question, I can Imagine going to the beach and not seeing an empty coke bottle. Imagine Hiking and not seeing a discarded Evian water bottle, bottle lids, or take away containers. Imagine that without plastic. Imagine that there is an entire area of the Ocean covered in plastic waste. Imagine Birds with their stomachs full of plastic bits and pieces. Imagine the world without plastic. I can quite easily

You make it sound like we actually would not survive without it! For christ sakes it is only 100 years old as a product. Please.

And behold thats the period where the human population has 'exploded' and life expectancy and the quality of life of billions has increased enormously.

Oh, and it was all Plastics was it? Give me a break dude. Add in Medicine, Better quality of food, sanitation, water, housing, increase in income, more hospitals etc etc. Oh and plastic.

Yeah I just posted at my blog about BPA a few weeks ago. Sinister world we live in.

I know, and that is just one of many, many issues dude.

But I'm highly skeptical of the claims in the 2nd link there. I mean I guess if you only use filtered tap water, and paper cartons of milk all year. In her list i dont see where she says to buy plastic bottles stuff if you want, but save the containers for later use.

Be skeptical, sure, I listed four sites. I am not saying that you have to eradicate plastics, but we can reduce a lot of usage and the waste. We can learn other alternatives, we can identify other products or resources to use. That is the good thing about sites like that, we can all use these examples to help identify areas in our own lives where we can all do a little bit. These sites show what is possible NOT what you must do.

Will be good for if the economy dips us into a Mad Max sceanrio. I recommend eveyone with a garage do set up a huge box over in the corner to do the same.

I hope you don't end up in Mad Max scenario bro.

But anyways, you're sure to not live the highest quality of life by not buying consumables if they come in plastic containers. The list I could describe would exceed 10000 characters.

This is the kind of thinking that is counter productive and fear based.
What is the highest quality of life dude, because I want to know. Mark my words friend, we are coming up with replacements, and alternatives.
My quality of life would be at its highest if I didn't see a plastic container floating in the surf when I am catching waves bro! That is quality. It's not seeing a bottle lid ring(you know the little things that peel around the screw caps).

...kids toys

Omg, toys...what will we do without all those cheap toys that our kids use and then throw away.

the mechanical elements of most consumer electronics, the safety of most consumer appliances, automobiles (have fun building these without plastics; all metal vehicles = more wasted energy), aerospace, space travel, home insulation options (save energy!), laminates (extend the lives of many surfaces), LCD screens (less mercury to have a 'picture', child safety devices, hardhats, safety glasses, fishing gear (catch your own food), agriculture (starter trays, just for starters), defense (all levels), paints and adhesives (you need nasty 2 part acrylic paints to keep all metal automobiles from rusting), bicycles, roller skates, 'razor' scooters, buckets,

Yes and when we realize that we need to focus on a solution and not treat this issue with contempt we will make progress. Your contempt in this case is you think A: we could not survive without these and B:there is no way we could reduce, or replace the plastics above.

Are you suggesting that humanity would die without your list above. We are making inroads in reusing and recycling the many products you mention above. As I said, we are getting to a point were our use of plastics is having a major impact on the planet, which is why people are recycling, reducing, reusing, finding alternatives, researching new methods for/with/to plastics.
As I said, it does not happen over night. ALL plastics will not be replaced but we will find better environmental solutions to the mass produced stuff.
Just wait and see bro.

music (you actually argued my point with that!), ...

Yes look how technology has reduced the need for large volumes of plastics in the music industry in relation to products.

AHHH! The list permeates all throughout every facet of modern life, in a similar vein as to tax all carbon fuels would raise the costs of every facet of life.

Which brings me back to the fact that we need to confront the way we use plastics, we use it because it was easy, cheap, versatile and appeared to be harmless. That mentality is changing. We know that the cheap and easy versatility has come back to haunt us in the forms of massive amounts of waste and garbage that litters our landscape and oceans.

Comparing CFC's and the entire universe of petro-plastics is like comparing Michael Jackson with Pantera.

My example is that when we realize that technology has major problems, we have overcome them and replaced that technology. Plastic will be no different. Dime Bag would agree with me if he were alive(RIP D. Abbott).

This is pointless. Talking about ways to reduce plastic usage doesnt undue the necessity of plastics in our everyday lives. And I love how you attempt to allege I'm suggesting we be a throw away society simply for arguing the absurdity of not using petroleum.

Yes, I agree, your thread is pointless, that much is obvious.
The real absurdity is the straw man you build in your title, and then go about attacking that.

Reducing plastics is only the first step my friend. We know what a problem it is. Reduction is what we do while we look for a replacement. Plastic is not a necessity for life and if you live long enough you will learn that. When you get that through your head you will overcome the first hurdle of innovation, that being your lack of imagination.




South Park 2050
Kenny: OMG! they killed plastic!



[edit on 10/12/09 by atlasastro]

reply to post by atlasastro


I'm not in total contempt or whatever. Sometimes debates in other threads get me riled up causing me to start a new 'focus' thread like this here, which may come off as inflammatory, especially if its late at night and the corona has been tasting real good.

btw: we're already teetering on the verge of mad max. not to derail the thread, but on one hand, if TPTB get their way they'll need to keep us borderline mad max (to prevent us from getting the life extension technologies they're preparing to horde), but still in control, and on the other hand, if they dont get their way they have the power to ensure mad max. Maybe I'll start a new thread on this later...