Your Date With Destiny: Meeting the Real Jesus

reply to post by badmedia


Badmedia,

Please stop replying to Oliveoil. You are making too much sense for him/her to understand. You'll give yourself an aneurysm if you continue talking to that guy.

Originally posted by truthtothemasses
reply to post by badmedia

 

Badmedia,

Please stop replying to Oliveoil. You are making too much sense for him/her to understand. You'll give yourself an aneurysm if you continue talking to that guy.

LOL.. Your just jealous I'm not talking to you. Well maybe if you had something intelligent to say...

reply to post by LeoVirgo

A spiritual nature is different then a Earthly nature.

This is correct

If one reads the Bible, it gives thought that Jesus's nature was very Spiritual and not very Earthly. One does not need to 'know' Jesus to see the nature of God in a message.

This is correct also.

If I told you about a man that I knew that gave his life for another being....would you have to 'know' this person to 'know' their nature was spiritual?

No I wouldn't. However, If it was this persons sole mission in life to die so that I may be saved I would at least have to know if this was true.And the only way I could do this is if that person existed. Otherwise It would have no meaning to me.

Many stories have been written with characters that display a spiritual nature, a nature that lives more for other selves then their own self. These characters dont have to be real for a person to learn from the nature displayed.

Your putting the whole account of Jesus on the shelf and labeling it as just a story.

The OT gives a Earthly image of what God is supposed to be....do I have to 'know' this OT God to 'know' that this nature is not what Holy is? I dont know if the OT image of god existed or not, mabey it was just in the minds of men that it did...but still I was able to learn about the 'road that is not' from the OT.

No, But I think your missing out on the whole point that God reveals himself though the Bible. He wants us to know him. He is not just some spirit in the sky.

reply to post by oliveoil


With all due respect Oliveoil (I do love the name btw)

All the accounts made to God in the Bible are not true images of our Holy Most High.

This cant be found in books, one must learn Gods nature through within, living certain ways, humbling the mind and heart enough to learn from the Holy Spirit.

When one accept the book without discernment, the image of God is distorted so much that the true nature is not then known, so true seeking is not possible, with preconceived thoughts about what God is. I have walked it myself, for many years, the Holy Spirit is what has shown me this. This is why I tell others, test it through the Holy Spirit of life, so you also can know this nature of our God Most High.

Your path is valid, so is Grandmas, Badmedias, ect....all will find their way.

God is so great that Thee doesnt even judge those that refuse to place belief in things they dont see. A person can be in tune with their inner nature without believing in God or Jesus. There are non believers that are not poor in spirit, believe it or not.

The OT image of God highly distorts the true nature of God. God holds no soul in higher account then any other, Jesus showed us what we are capable of, it is too bad that we probably dont have a true account of what Jesus taught, but I do accept the parables as true teachings, for I understand why he would of had to of taught in parables.

Just as though you seem to share your understandings out of concern for others, I do the same. The milk can come from the book, but the food can only come through personal relation with the Holy Spirit.

The path of the OT is needed, for we have to have a example of the 'path that is not' in order to recognize the 'path that is'. So still, its not a mistake, there are no mistakes. Its not a mistake we are here, just the same.

All the best to you and yours always
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo

With all due respect Oliveoil (I do love the name btw)

Lol

All the accounts made to God in the Bible are not true images of our Holy Most High.

This cant be found in books, one must learn Gods nature through within, living certain ways, humbling the mind and heart enough to learn from the Holy Spirit.

When one accept the book without discernment, the image of God is distorted so much that the true nature is not then known, so true seeking is not possible, with preconceived thoughts about what God is. I have walked it myself, for many years, the Holy Spirit is what has shown me this. This is why I tell others, test it through the Holy Spirit of life, so you also can know this nature of our God Most High.

I am a theology student and totally grasp the concept of Gods nature.(differs from yours) My problem is when people theorize on concepts of God w/o really knowing Gods whole "story", or omitting certain passages or not recognizing certain apostles who contribute to the insight to Gods nature as being valid.
Its very important to take all the accounts of the bible as truth.Good or bad.It all has meaning.

Your path is valid

I know.

God is so great that Thee doesnt even judge those that refuse to place belief in things they dont see.

Not according to the Bible.


[edit on 11-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by Grandma


We would be living in a much different world if only the teachings of Jesus were followed, but the early church seen organized religion as a way to instill fear of death into the masses, thus making it easy to not only control them, but as a way of amassing wealth and power. The Catholic church and its several hundred years of the Inquisition, tortured and murdered millions of its own, all the time confiscating its victims' properties and whatever valuable possesions they may have had. The Crusades were another excuse for plundering and amassing wealth for those nobles who parcipated in all the butchery and pillaging of non-Christian cities. Soldiers back then, were paid in whatever loot they personally collected, thus the more families they butchered, the bigger the likely reward. In more recent times, Hitler had Jesuits amongst his top officers and advisors, and we all know the result. If folk would follow the teachings of Jesus, and get rid of organized religion, there wouldn't be all the wars and starvation in the world, and history would have been written much differently.

A question for Oliveoil and Grandma...

Care to explain the contradictions of Genesis 1:26, 27 and Genesis 2:6, 7 ?

What was created first? Hell or Satan? Who created them?

Who was god refering to when he said, "Let US make man in OUR image"?

peas

reply to post by Bkrmn


And the craziest thing about that? It's actually foretold that exactly that will happen. "Christians" don't get it, because they look at every other religion but their own as guilty.

I put "Christians" in quotes because it's not really fair to bulk them up and generalize. Not all are guilty by far, but the religion itself and those who lead it as a whole are.

It's like that "Left Behind" thingy. Where they go and kill anyone who doesn't go along with the new religion/stuff.

Yeah, that is exactly what the Catholic Church did. They would burn people in public if they didn't go along with things.

But still, they wait/think it's going to happen to them without realize that it already happened.

Any wonder why the version of today's Christianity is what it is? Not really, anyone who said otherwise was killed in public(to spread fear to everyone else, that this is what happens to those who go against it).

The list of things the church does in regards to prophecy is numerous.

That is why the best thing I ever did was remove god and such from the religion. All the bad things you can see in religion, are all things which are warned against etc. It's almost amazing they don't see it.

reply to post by oliveoil


Hello again!

Sense you accept that God's 'story' is all left in the Bible, as is....you wouldnt be able to see anything outside of that.

If God's story did differ, you wouldnt even know it or have a clue that it did.

God created Thee's story before man ever even walked the Earth. All things were made with life in ways that we could find Thee and know Thee.

What is happening now, today, is very similar to what happened when Jesus spoke against many others back then. There is wisdom in the books, in all of the books, but to know the nature of God one has to seek a personal relation.

Man is not supposed to take another man's word for it....we are to seek Thee, we are to knock. The path of understanding takes a lifetime, mabey many lifetimes.

For God to leave his nature all in a book, laid out all black and white, would defeat the purpose that we were made for, which is a true humbled personal path with Thee.

I dont doubt that many religious fold can find wisdom's, but there is knowledge that will blind the true nature of what God is, such as blood sacrifices and the idea that God wanted man to kill other men.

If one is discerning what is a Earthly nature between Spiritual nature, then one can see that these actions in the OT was of a Earthly mind, therefor, ways of men.

We have to be in tune with our deepest self first, facing our own ways of flesh and being able to distinguish why we do the things we do. We can also learn from any past human, and learn why they have done what they have done, we can slowly start to distinguish what actions are of flesh and what actions would be of spirit....this is just the beginning to 'knowing' God. We are always comforted, for where ever are path is....for we are loved in ways we cant even fathom....but when ready, when able, we can know God and even though there are man made objects that may aid in this somewhat, it can not be complete without the personal relation of seeking Thee.

Jesus saw they would want him dead for the things he taught, he didnt fight back for this is not the life to fight for. He gave them his other cheek as well as asked for forgiveness for those that did not know what they doing.

Its all about learning the different of natures....so we can then consciously make a choice of which one we live for.

If one believes God is prideful, jealous, revengeful by using wrath, ect....then there is the excuse for one to also be these things. They might be people with good intentions, but sense they dont distinguish between a Earthly action and a Spiritual action....they might not always be the pillar of light that is within their ability to be.

But again, both sides of the story offer something for us, good and bad....Earthly and Spiritual....both offer us things we must learn about.


[edit on 11-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by theonlyrusty


I will try to answer your questions. I believe Satan was created with all the other angels as Lucifer "The Morning Star". The angels were created before man was created. There is some thought that God gave the heavenly stars to the angels to care for. Some think that Lucifer was given the earth. I do believe he tried to overtake heaven as God. He was throwen out along with his buddies to earth. So he does rule earth until Christ comes again, but because of God's plan we have hope through Christ to fight Satan's attacks on our mind and heart.

Now, I believe when God says "our image" he is talking to Christ and the angels and The Holy Spirit.

As far as the two scriptures in Genesis being contrary to each other, I don't see it that way. Let me see if I can explain it. First chapter two begins with telling us everything was done. completed. And it goes on to tell us that it was the seventh day and God was resting from all his work. To me Adam is not created again.....chapter two just goes on to repeat how it all happened. Man was not created twice.

As far as when hell was created, my best guess would be when Satan went bad.

As far as mankind is concerned we ALL would do good to remember these words of David:"Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my thoughts. See if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."(Psalm 139:23-24)

If we all can do as David did, our world would be much different place to live. This is my desire for me and all mankind.

I hope I answered your questions. It is difficult for me to put into words what is in my heart.

Peace to you,
Grandma

Thanks for answering Grandma. Peace to you also.

I will have to go back and reread some stuff cause I missed the part about god creating the angels and all.

I did notice it said that he created the heavens and the earth and everything else and then saw that it was "good".

I am just having a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that his creating "hell and "satan" was somehow "good". I mean, it was HIS creation was it not? It seems rather confusing he would create a negative formidable force against himself. And if he knows all and is omnipotent, he already knew the outcome before he created these things.

It also seems kinda strange he would create this species called man, tell him not to kill, then tell him to go and wipe out the enemies of himself.

I'm not sure that my heart could ever be 100% satisfied knowing that this creator intentionally created a flawed creation and then put the responsibility upon that creation to redeem himself for something he had nothing to do with. And to top it all off, I am supposed to somehow feel guilty that he made a flawed creation........rather confusing.

Personally, I find it more joyful to just tell the truth, never violate my fellow man and never forcefully impose my belief in god on another. It seems to work well for me, but like they say, "To each his own".

Sometimes, I get the feeling that what the bible says and what it means are 2 entirely different things. What if man misinterpreted the message god was giving him and we are trying to live up to an erroneous set of standards? That would kinda suc......

merry xmas.....

peas

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Hi Leo Virgo

Sense you accept that God's 'story' is all left in the Bible, as is....you wouldn't be able to see anything outside of that

No I cant see anything outside of that.However I do see God in all things,And the Bible bares witness to these things which I see.

God created Thee's story before man ever even walked the Earth. All things were made with life in ways that we could find Thee and know Thee.

True but without reading and studying the Scriptures one can not know him, unless he is righteous and never heard.

What is happening now, today, is very similar to what happened when Jesus spoke against many others back then. There is wisdom in the books, in all of the books, but to know the nature of God one has to seek a personal relation.

Anyone can have a personal relationship with God in there own mindset. However, The knowledge you seek of him can only be found in the Bible.

Man is not supposed to take another man's word for it....we are to seek Thee, we are to knock. The path of understanding takes a lifetime, maybe many lifetimes.

The Bible is not just another mans word.Its 100% grade a Gods word. /If An average mans life span is not enough time to find him, how much more time do you need?.

For God to leave his nature all in a book, laid out all black and white, would defeat the purpose that we were made for, which is a true humbled personal path with Thee.

Please expand on this for me.

I dont doubt that many religious fold can find wisdom's, but there is knowledge that will blind the true nature of what God is, such as blood sacrifices and the idea that God wanted man to kill other men.

Expand on this too

If one is discerning what is a Earthly nature between Spiritual nature, then one can see that these actions in the OT was of a Earthly mind, therefor, ways of men.

I said this before,
Man is of spirit and of flesh. He has a soul and a body.And the OT was indeed of a spiritual nature.

We have to be in tune with our deepest self first

Correction, The only way man can truly understand himself is by FIRST understanding God.- Try it you'll be amazed how much you though you knew.

Jesus saw they would want him dead for the things he taught,

Why did they seek Jesus's death?


Sorry for the delayed reply, I must do my jogging.

reply to post by theonlyrusty


I am going to tell you what I believe and it does not go along with what the Bible says.

When God created the angels they all were given free will.. They were created holy and are described as being especially devoted to the worship of God (Isa. 6:2-4)

Divine revelation also teaches the existence of evil angels whose intense malignity against God causes them to oppose his operations by temptiing men to oppose God's Holy Will.

I can not believe that God created evil angels. Therefore he must have created them holy and they became sinful in their character by their own acts,, as has man.

Did God KNOW this was going to happen? I believe he knew it could but did not know what path the angels would choose to take at the moment they took the wrong path.

He has taken a plan to help us fight off the evil that they have brought to this earth. We are not without hope.

Now, to address about all the Killing that is in the OT. I know it says that God commanded or told them to go kill these other peoples and the Firstborn of Egypt.. I do not believe God the Father did that. Man wrote and said "God" told them to do this. There is some thought that one of the angels came claiming to be God.

All I can tell you is the heavenly Father that I KNOW would not kill babies or command whole nations wiped out. One of the commandments is "Thou shall not kill", I do not believe God would break one of His own Laws.

Now, I can only tell you I have a one on one relationship with God and it is beautiful and amazing everytime we meet. I feel so much love and grace. Yes, it is a spiritual relationship but a real relationship just the same. I have known God for over 30 years and He is good. The Holy Spirit helps bring the two of us together.


I hope I did not confuse you more. It is good to seek and ask questions.


Peace and Merry Christmas,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Grandma, do you mind if I step in for a sec?

There are three basic views in the bible regarding children who die before the age of accountability,(before they are morally responsible for their own actions.)

The first view is that only the elect infants go to heaven these are the babies that are predestined to go to heaven (eph 1:4 and Rom 8:29)

The second view is that only infants who would have believed go to heaven.(Isa 46:10)

And the third view (which I believe) all infants go to heaven.( Isa 7:16, 2 Sam 12:23, mark 10:14, Rom 5:18-19 John 9:41) theres many more which support this third view I just cant think of them all.

Now, to address about all the Killing that is in the OT. I know it says that God commanded or told them to go kill these other peoples and the Firstborn of Egypt.. I do not believe God the Father did that. Man wrote and said "God" told them to do this. There is some thought that one of the angels came claiming to be God

I know this is a hard pill to swallow but the cold hard truth is that it did happen. I'm not gonna go into the theory behind it here,(My RA is extremely bad) but I can tell you that nothing but good came about it.So you shouldn't be upset and think that God is a murderer. He is not!

[edit on 11-12-2009 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil


Hi oliveoil:

No, I never have a problem with anyone "stepping in".

I too believe all infants go to heaven. Back to the Creator and Father.

For your information I should tell you that Leo Virgo is my daughter. She was with me when I had my NDE. It is on youtube.

Also, my older child, a boy, Craig was his name. Well, he died 7days before his 8th birthday. He drown, it was very, very hard, That was hell on earth at that time for me. But, I feel that he went to heaven too, that he was not at that age of accountability. I will also share with you it was sometime after his death that I felt the presence of God with me and helping me accept what I needed to accept and help me go on. My daughter, Leo Virgo, was 2 years old when he died, so I still needed to be a mommy to her. ButI will tell you out of all the things I have gone through this 61 years of my life, getting through the grief process of losing my son, has been the hardest thing of my life. The good thing is that I did become a Christian, got baptized, went to church and Sunday school, taught Sunday school and anything else that the Lord asked me to do.

So, I do know first hand that God can bring good things when we are down in the valley, He will help us find our way back up the mountain, if we listen.

God is good and I need more proof that he had a part in all the killing that went on in the OT. Like I said, that is not the God I know.

Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Hi Grandma - the other day I read an account of a woman who was in a car wreck, who had a wonderful encounter with Jesus and she brought back a piece of information, that I think yourself and others might like to ponder.

She was driving on a highway and noticed other drivers slowing down because a van was broke down in the medium, to her left. Another car had stopped to help, so there were people standing around outside the cars. In her rearview mirror she saw a semi coming and he wasn't breaking. Her experience began at this point. She found herself in the light in the presence of Jesus. Her life had been a hard one, with constant struggles from her childhood and these problems followed her into her adulthood and the one thing she wanted to know from Jesus was "why?"

So she asked him and he said 'You don't remember do you?' She told him, 'No.' He again told her 'You really don't remember but you picked this life and how hard it would be.'

He took her all the way back and beyond and showed her, that we were all there at creation. We all had a hand in it. When God said "in our image" - he was talking to us. It brings to mind, God talking to Job, when he told him to 'brace yourself like a man, I will question you and you will answer me." He then said:

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" Job 38: 4-7

The morning stars/angels may have been us and we may disolve into a former nature.

Angels are neither male or female. Jesus said that in heaven we won't have husbands or wives because we will be like the angels.

If what this lady brought back is even remotely close, that would imply that Adam being put to sleep and woman being taken out of him could be the cause and effect of the memory loss. Sleep is a strange thing. Most of us can't even recall our dreams, let alone minute vivid details.

In fact, the word never says that Adam woke up - we make that assumption ourselves because the story, once again takes off, but no one really takes the time to ponder is Adam awake, is he still asleep or possibly just dreaming?

Then we have Jesus teaching and urging everyone to wake up, stay alert or he'll come like a thief and we won't know, what hour he will come - because our eyes are heavy and we sleep.

The lady ended up hearing a voice who told her to accelerate, he clipped her and she spun out - and all that she brought back happened in a fraction of a second.

Just something to ponder!



[edit on 12-12-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

Hi Leo Virgo

Sense you accept that God's 'story' is all left in the Bible, as is....you wouldn't be able to see anything outside of that

No I cant see anything outside of that.However I do see God in all things,And the Bible bares witness to these things which I see.

God created Thee's story before man ever even walked the Earth. All things were made with life in ways that we could find Thee and know Thee.

True but without reading and studying the Scriptures one can not know him, unless he is righteous and never heard.

What is happening now, today, is very similar to what happened when Jesus spoke against many others back then. There is wisdom in the books, in all of the books, but to know the nature of God one has to seek a personal relation.

Anyone can have a personal relationship with God in there own mindset. However, The knowledge you seek of him can only be found in the Bible.

Man is not supposed to take another man's word for it....we are to seek Thee, we are to knock. The path of understanding takes a lifetime, maybe many lifetimes.

The Bible is not just another mans word.Its 100% grade a Gods word. /If An average mans life span is not enough time to find him, how much more time do you need?.

For God to leave his nature all in a book, laid out all black and white, would defeat the purpose that we were made for, which is a true humbled personal path with Thee.

Please expand on this for me.

I dont doubt that many religious fold can find wisdom's, but there is knowledge that will blind the true nature of what God is, such as blood sacrifices and the idea that God wanted man to kill other men.

Expand on this too

If one is discerning what is a Earthly nature between Spiritual nature, then one can see that these actions in the OT was of a Earthly mind, therefor, ways of men.

I said this before,
Man is of spirit and of flesh. He has a soul and a body.And the OT was indeed of a spiritual nature.

We have to be in tune with our deepest self first

Correction, The only way man can truly understand himself is by FIRST understanding God.- Try it you'll be amazed how much you though you knew.

Jesus saw they would want him dead for the things he taught,

Why did they seek Jesus's death?


Sorry for the delayed reply, I must do my jogging.

Hi again!

Im going to be lazy and just quote this entire discussion, its late but I do wish to respond for I have enjoyed our convo.

I just have to disagree due to experience, one can know God without a book. Before there was writing, I believe that man did have intuition of a 'higher self'. Most likely through the invisible forces of energy and nature, man saw that the blue print of the world was full of mysteries, and had a foundation of a 'force' that tied all things together. This was the beginning of man seeking God.

Today, there are people that dont have the Bible, but yet, their inner being shines brighter then the sun. God is so great that all the tools we needed to seek Thee were here before man walked here. I already made this my claim earlier, but stating it again.

If we are to not clinge to man made materials, why would God depend on man needed a book, a material that could be destroyed? The reason that we can find some of the nature of God within the Bible is because some of the stories do display a 'holy nature', such as men that did love their neighbors, did try to walk a rightous path, did try to love others as themselves. But most are fooled, for they think that the entire Bible displays a Holy nature, it simply does not. It is a shame on what is 'divine'.

There is a difference in a spiritual man and a carnal man. They have two different natures. Both are capable of both natures, but the choice and growth of one man over the other is more spiritual, due to that mans understandings. This is just one reason that God doesnt leave us all the answers in our lap, would you give your gems to someone that would throw them away finding them worthless? It would be like God given his treasures to foolish men that did not know its worth. This is why the scriptures are called the milk, for the food is 'life', a true living word within us that the Holy Spirit brings us....leading to understandings about Gods true nature. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. This is why I must be cautious with what I share with others, for I dont want to throw a treasure at someone that would turn it and twist it to be something it is not. What is precious should be carefully kept and used wisely. We are talking about the mysteries of heaven and God...this isnt something to 'give' away. God made sure the 'way' involves a must for a personal path with Thee...not a broad path that many can follow that would twist and turn the worth of the knowledge. This is why spirituality is of God, religion is of the Earth.

The OT is full of reactions from 'God' that are very carnal reactions, as man would react. This needs discernment. God is consistent. One must compare the nature of Jesus to the nature of the OT God and stop making excuses for the two to fit together, the dont fit. Its like water and oil. To make excuses for this is limiting God's true nature greatly. It blinds people from seeing what sits right below their nose. If they are not seeking, they wont discern, they will only accept. You can pull any excuse out of the hat for the actions of God in the OT...and I will tell you, this is not the nature of God. God does not expect men to kill other men nor had God used anger or wrath to keep man on the right track. Man often used God for explaining many actions and behaviors back then, even thunderstorms and droughts were excuses to use 'God is mad' or 'Man has sinned'. One must be careful and dig deep into why man did what they did, is there any greed there to be seen, any pride there to be seen....if there is, God was not involved.

The idea that bloodshed saves us from sins is the biggest thing today that is holding man kind back from his spiritual nature. By believing killing free's us and that this is Gods path he made for our salvation....leads one away from God....not closer to Thee.

When I saw there was a spiritual nature in the OT, I am not talking about its entirety. The understanding of an 'eye for an eye' is a karmic law. This is what bounds the spiritual self to the physical world. If you kill or harm another in this life, you will and must experience the other side of the scenario in another life (or later on in that life even if lucky). This understanding of this spiritual cause and effect was known by certain cultures but became misused by many also. Man began to make 'scapegoats' through animal sacrifices....representing and eye for an eye physically. Do wrong in your life, a life must be given then, to the Lord, through a killing of a life. The spiritual law should of not been represented that way through physical practices. All of those people that killed animals for sins....have faced their fate of knowing in the after life that this was wrong...and they will or already have, relearned, and will reap what they sow or already by now have reaped what they sown. They actually increased must karma in the OT.

They sought to kill Jesus because he wasnt what they expected. I believe that he was very much against them killing for their sins and was teaching them that reaping what you sow will be and wont go away, hence, he tells us, pick up your cross and follow me (in my ways). We have turned Jesus into a idol of God. God is nameless, exceeds all boundaries of Earthly ways, even our words and language.

Jesus came and taught against their ways, more or less told them....you are wrong. If one is not open minded, they too today are gong to tell many that bring wisdom to them....they are wrong. It not an easy road to stand against the masses, knowing it could mean the loss of your life of flesh. But when your life of flesh means nothing, except being a tool to show others the love and nature of God...then that person could do such works.

Imagine a man coming to tell the Jews that their blood sacrifices and Earthly practices were not Spiritual. Imagine the rejection and anger they had for him trying to take away what has comforted them for years and years.

I tell you though, it will happen again, man is not ready for they are still very much attached to Earthly ways.

This is why only few find the way, the answers are not in plain site for the simple carnal man to find and ruin with their foolishness.

I tell you truly, if you were born again onto this sphere, after all things of man were washed away...and only life remained in its form of nature....you could find God. Just ask Thee....where would I find you if I didnt have this book....you will get an answer....God thought way ahead on this one...the tools for finding Thee has always been here.

Cut a tree...I am there....lift a rock...you will find me.

Discernment of Earthly nature and Spiritual nature is a must. Do you really think God would make a logical reasoning man and be counting on that man to depend on a book passed down between many many hands? And then blame the ones that didnt except it as 'Gods word'? That would be like shoving mans logical and reasoning's in his own face. Its just not so.

Gods word is in life, the things that cant rust nor be destroyed. It can never be tainted, distorted, or twisted. Why do you think so many parables use a form of 'life' in them. Life shows us patterns, cycles, repetitiveness, and process. Our souls journey works much the same way, under these same 'laws'. There is a science, believe it or not, to the way God works and makes our path.

[edit on 12-12-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by theonlyrusty

And to top it all off, I am supposed to somehow feel guilty that he made a flawed creation........rather confusing.

I just wanted to weigh in on this one with you theonlyrusty. Any feelings of guilt are not from God. God only encourages and gives you the good stuff. You must realize that if He made us like robots that can only do good, it wouldn't be us really following Him. He gave us the ability to look at both sides of the coin and choose who to follow. Does He know that we would be deceived at times and choose wrong? Or does He know that we can blatantly choose the wrong thing? Yes. The questions you ask are really good. Remember, ask and you shall receive. Knock and it will be opened. Not real quotes, I'm just going from memory.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


lol, well she was told the truth. I generally don't even go into such discussion, it goes into what Jesus said in regards to - if you don't believe me about earthly things, then you surely won't believe me about heavenly things.

But each and every life is nothing more than an "experience", of which was chosen and agreed to.

I don't know about the Adam part. However, limited knowledge and perspective(what you suggest with the asleep part) is how "reality" is brought into "existence" and lots of other things. "Adam" is already a result of that, however that is not to say you can't have different levels of things. All you need to do is look at the difference between "life" and "dreams". 2 levels etc.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


I'm gonna answer your first few questions here as you keep repeating yourself and reaffirming your own position.

I just have to disagree due to experience, one can know God without a book. Before there was writing, I believe that man did have intuition of a 'higher self'. Most likely through the invisible forces of energy and nature, man saw that the blue print of the world was full of mysteries, and had a foundation of a 'force' that tied all things together. This was the beginning of man seeking God.

You are absolutely correct however, you are a little fuzzy on your theories.Their are two types of revelation(how God revels himself to us) so to speak. The first one is though natural revelation.This being the existence of the universe and how it points to God.However this type of revelation does not revel much about what he is like.
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The second would be though divine revelation.This meaning that God has reveled himself and the eternal decrees of his will to mankind in a supernatural manner.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

Because of this all men are able to know with readiness,with firm certitude,and without admixture of error,what ever in divine matters is not of itself beyond the grasp of human reason.-FVC1870

This Divine revelation is only contained in the Bible and in unwritten traditions, which have been received by the apostles themselves,at the dictation of the Holy Spirit and have come to us transmitted as it were hand to hand.Thus God has reveled himself and his mind to us.

You obviously had a some sort of "divine inspiration" I do not deny this. Maybe God is knocking on your door telling you to get busy learning the Bible to better your understanding.He has picked you.
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Today, there are people that don't have the Bible, but yet, their inner being shines brighter then the sun. God is so great that all the tools we needed to seek Thee were here before man walked here. I already made this my claim earlier, but stating it again.

As I said above. These people need to put their "divine inspiration" to use.

If we are to not clinge to man made materials, why would God depend on man needed a book, a material that could be destroyed? The reason that we can find some of the nature of God within the Bible is because some of the stories do display a 'holy nature', such as men that did love their neighbors, did try to walk a rightous path, did try to love others as themselves. But most are fooled, for they think that the entire Bible displays a Holy nature, it simply does not. It is a shame on what is 'divine'.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
I don't know about you but I still need the good book. Lol !!

There is a difference in a spiritual man and a carnal man. They have two different natures. Both are capable of both natures, but the choice and growth of one man over the other is more spiritual, due to that mans understandings. This is just one reason that God doesn't leave us all the answers in our lap, would you give your gems to someone that would throw them away finding them worthless? It would be like God given his treasures to foolish men that did not know its worth. This is why the scriptures are called the milk, for the food is 'life', a true living word within us that the Holy Spirit brings us....leading to understandings about Gods true nature. This is why Jesus spoke in parables. This is why I must be cautious with what I share with others, for I don't want to throw a treasure at someone that would turn it and twist it to be something it is not. What is precious should be carefully kept and used wisely. We are talking about the mysteries of heaven and God...this isn't something to 'give' away. God made sure the 'way' involves a must for a personal path with Thee...not a broad path that many can follow that would twist and turn the worth of the knowledge. This is why spirituality is of God, religion is of the Earth.

The word spirituality is not found in the Bible. However the word religion is.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The word church is also found in the Bible

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Please if anything you do today please look up the definitions of Religion,Church, and spirituality, then see how they relate to the Bible. You'll be happy you did.

The OT is full of reactions from 'God' that are very carnal reactions, as man would react. This needs discernment. God is consistent. One must compare the nature of Jesus to the nature of the OT God and stop making excuses for the two to fit together, the don't fit. Its like water and oil. To make excuses for this is limiting God's true nature greatly. It blinds people from seeing what sits right below their nose. If they are not seeking, they wont discern, they will only accept. You can pull any excuse out of the hat for the actions of God in the OT...and I will tell you, this is not the nature of God. God does not expect men to kill other men nor had God used anger or wrath to keep man on the right track. Man often used God for explaining many actions and behaviors back then, even thunderstorms and droughts were excuses to use 'God is mad' or 'Man has sinned'. One must be careful and dig deep into why man did what they did, is there any greed there to be seen, any pride there to be seen....if there is, God was not involved.

Im not saying that I have all your answers but please, list your concerns specifically one by one and I will show YOU in reasonable terms how your train of thought is a little off track.

The idea that bloodshed saves us from sins is the biggest thing today that is holding man kind back from his spiritual nature. By believing killing free's us and that this is Gods path he made for our salvation....leads one away from God....not closer to Thee.

Again, all has meaning.
Your just looking at it up side down.

When I saw there was a spiritual nature in the OT, I am not talking about its entirety. The understanding of an 'eye for an eye' is a karmic law. This is what bounds the spiritual self to the physical world. If you kill or harm another in this life, you will and must experience the other side of the scenario in another life (or later on in that life even if lucky). This understanding of this spiritual cause and effect was known by certain cultures but became misused by many also. Man began to make 'scapegoats' through animal sacrifices....representing and eye for an eye physically. Do wrong in your life, a life must be given then, to the Lord, through a killing of a life. The spiritual law should of not been represented that way through physical practices. All of those people that killed animals for sins....have faced their fate of knowing in the after life that this was wrong...and they will or already have, relearned, and will reap what they sow or already by now have reaped what they sown. They actually increased must karma in the OT.

Again, you are resisting to acknowledge Biblical and historical facts. Yes, people were ignorant and barbaric back then.It was what it was.However you are not looking into the meaning of why people did what they did there fore you are not grasping the full effect into what the Bible is saying.