IRAN: Outrage, and a warning, over Swiss vote to ban minarets

Originally posted by SLAYER69

GET REAL...

I've never considered the Persians as barbaric.

Yes, that's not what you said, but nevertheless your tone is quite condescending - and not just yours. I mean do you people really have to add so emphatically "they should STFU / nobody cares what they (Muslims / Iranians) say" and so on. They just seem so ignoble.

Originally posted by LadySkadi
My point was regarding political games and it would have been the same comment, regardless of the country being talked about.

Okay, that might be your case, but there is a lot of agitation going on to mould public opinion favourably towards a war with Iran. And this news about Irans "outrage" is in itself eliciting so much outrage here- don't tell me that people here view Iran "neutral." Some sentences I'd even rate as propaganda "Do as we say or there will be consequences." - as if Iran has ever attacked any country because they "didn't listen." It's the opposite, since Iran doesn't listen to the preposterous demands of the West it's being punished - with sanctions, in the future perhaps with a devastating war - and it seems that some people here would be quite happy if a new "just" war was to happen.

Originally posted by Hack28
First of all, you took a religious debate and turned it into a country debate.

I didn't do that. Just re-read the thread and you'll see people talk about countries. Talking about the oh-so "dictating" Iran.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
The Swiss are wrong in banning minarets in the first place. It's quite discriminating and dictating. I feel sorry for the Muslims there.

Sure a vote is a vote but still, it's pretty disgusting to ban the construction of a building where one goes to worship.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by GorehoundLarry]

There are already 200 of them in Swisslandica though is that not enough?

reply to post by hanzaisha
Okay, I hear what you're saying and to a certain extent, I agree. I believe that the Swiss have the right to vote on what they believe to be in their best interests and I also believe that those who disagree with that vote (Swiss or non) have the right to protest it. However, when Iran (specifically, since this thread is about Iran) releases statements such as:

Iran's foreign minister warned of unspecified "consequences" if the ban were enforced.

Or

Ayatollah Hossein Nouri-Hamadani, said the move was "at odds with the protection of Muslim citizens' civil rights and will hurt the feelings of Muslims across the world," according to Iran's state television.

Then I have to seriously call BS on Iran's stated motive. This is a country that is persecuting it's own citizens, denying and jailing and executing them for participation in protest and rally. Iran, does not have a track record in "civil rights" and should consider it's own stance, before condemning (and threatening, veiled as it is) those of another country.

reply to post by habfan1968


Although as a leaf fan it is in my very nature to hate you. Swisslandica is probably the funniest comment ive seen today.
On a side note, congrats on 100 years, as much as i distain les Habitants have to give the honour and respect where its due. Felicitations mon ami, now back to the hated rivalry!!!!
We need a Leafs vs Habs "what americans dont know" thread.

Originally posted by LadySkadi
reply to post by hanzaisha

 

Okay, I hear what you're saying and to a certain extent, I agree. I believe that the Swiss have the right to vote on what they believe to be in their best interests and I also believe that those who disagree with that vote (Swiss or non) have the right to protest it. However, when Iran (specifically, since this thread is about Iran) releases statements such as:

Iran's foreign minister warned of unspecified "consequences" if the ban were enforced.

Or

Ayatollah Hossein Nouri-Hamadani, said the move was "at odds with the protection of Muslim citizens' civil rights and will hurt the feelings of Muslims across the world," according to Iran's state television.

Then I have to seriously call BS on Iran's stated motive. This is a country that is persecuting it's own citizens, denying and jailing and executing them for participation in protest and rally. Iran, does not have a track record in "civil rights" and should consider it's own stance, before condemning (and threatening, veiled as it is) those of another country.

My exact sentiments on this subject were typed by another, i hope they do not mind the plagarism Very well said and my point of view on the matter, thank you for saying it much more elegantly than I!!
Star and respect (although i admit ive seen alot of your posts and already had the respect)

reply to post by Hack28
Cheers.





[edit on 7-12-2009 by LadySkadi]

Originally posted by LadySkadi
Then I have to seriously call BS on Iran's stated motive. This is a country that is persecuting it's own citizens, denying and jailing and executing them for participation in protest and rally. Iran, does not have a track record in "civil rights" and should consider it's own stance, before condemning (and threatening, veiled as it is) those of another country.

Okay, I get your point. Anyway, you're exaggerating. I mean that "threat" or the "consequences" - it's not like Iran will invade Switzerland or bomb any country as a "consequence." I doubt that there will be consequences, just look at this:

TEHRAN, March 17 (AFP) Mar 17, 2008
Iran and Switzerland on Monday signed a major agreement for Iranian gas exports to a Swiss company, in a rare energy deal between Tehran and the West as their nuclear showdown drags on.

"Today we witnessed the signing of a gas contract between the two countries," Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki announced at a joint news conference with his Swiss counterpart Micheline Calmy-Rey.

Financial details were not disclosed but the contract between Iran's state gas firm and Switzerland's Elektrizitaets-Gesellschaft (EGL) Laufenburg reportedly envisages Iran supplying 5.5 billion cubic metres (194 trillion cubic feet) of gas annually from 2011.

www.spacewar.com...

So this talk about "consequences" appears to be mere rhetoric on Irans side, since Switzerland is a vital financial partner.

The second part of your post: Hypocrisy. Did you forget about the G-20 Pittsburgh summit? Amongst others, there you could see wanton intimidations, arrests, the use of military weapons. Or let's look into what to expect at Copenhagen:

Copenhagen activists risk arrest for future crimes

New Danish law permits pre-emptive arrest and detention for up to 40 days of protestors
By Seth Jacobson
LAST UPDATED NOVEMBER 27, 2009

In a move that environmental activists and civil libertarians are describing as "deeply worrying", the Danish parliament yesterday passed legislation that gives police the power of 'pre-emptive arrest' ahead of the UN climate talks which begin in Copenhagen on December 7. The new measures will allow officers to arrest and detain anyone for up to 12 hours who they believe isliable to break the law in the near future.

www.thefirstpost.co.uk...

Besides you're really exaggerating. You make Iran sound like it's Pol Pots Cambodia, with people being persecuted and murdered all the time. I know people (non-Muslims) who even visited that country and you won't believe it, they enjoyed it. They didn't report any mass-killings or abductions--- I guess you're mostly refering to the "Green Revolution" anyway, which I view quite suspiciously. You don't need be a genius to figure that this was yet another coloured revolution at the very least highly sponsored by the West, as to get rid of Ahmadinejad - but that's a whole other topic.

reply to post by hanzaisha


Come on, I'm not exaggerating anything. I said that Iran knows how to play the Political Game. Here's my original post again, for reference:

Iran knows how to "work it" - create international press coverage regarding the issue and force the spotlight on the Swiss, sit back and let international pressure help facilitate and overturn the vote. In the meantime, international eyes are off them [Iran] for a bit.

As for arrests, persecutions and executions - It's hardly arguable that they are taking place, not to mention those who have had to flee the country and seek asylum elsewhere for fear of persecution. Iran is not innocent.

The other examples are off topic. We are (or rather, I am) discussing Iran's criticisms of the Swiss, not the Pittsburgh G-20 or Copenhagen. There are other threads for that.

I'm not sure if you're playing Devil's Advocate, or if you really are seeing my posts for something other than what they are... I think I've been pretty straightforward.


[edit on 7-12-2009 by LadySkadi]

The problem is that they practice what they preach and actually have them as laws in Iran and once populations grow in Europe the momentum of extreamism falls into the law of averages but people don't think that far ahead these days so it will creep up on your freedoms.

Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."
Text

Since when has anyone taking these type of verses seriously in today's modern world, maybe in Africa or somewhere Iran to maybe?

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Text

Happens in Somalia I think, maybe in Pakistan and India, maybe since the year 700AD.

Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Text

Who are these rivals? Like those in Switzerland?

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Text

Come on don't tell me they still do this like in 2010, what year did they say stop this command?

Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."
Text

Does anyone recall that women still need 4 witnesses for this act?

Qur'an 4:142 "Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them."
Text

Did not Jesus Christ warn us about decievers?

Bukhari:V6B60N8 "Umar said, 'Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah's Apostle himself said, "Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one."
Text

But I thought they said the Bible had been tampered with and corrupted, now who is doing the changing?

Bukhari:V2B24N555 "I heard the Prophet say, 'Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.'"
Text

Stop confusing him the book is not finnished yet.

Qur'an 13:27 "Say, 'God leads whosoever He wills astray.'"
Text

In my Bible that is called the Devil but of course Jesus Christ was made to look good so they were telling a lie about him when he warned us about the Devil's nature.

Qur'an 8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them."
Text

Yes once you get Nukes I am sure the world will be a happy place once more and I hope Ahmajinedad is being a good Apostle while he takes note of these verses.

Bukhari:V4B52N260 "The Prophet said, 'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'"
Qur'an 5:51 "Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends."

Text

Since when has these Muslim countries acted in such a way in Internantional deplomacy or in the cities or at work or when a Muslim becomes a Christian or dates some Hindu?

[edit on 7-12-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by The time lord


Some good point.
Time will tell if they follow through on some of the rhetoric

reply to post by Hack28


well considering the swiss would be a westernized nation. They are trying to cause a stink just like we try to cause stinks over there. Believe me, this is a test run. Trying to see if they can set a precedent!

This whole balance between Islam and the Christians and Jews and even the Hindu religion has gone on since the 7th century, the religion will never change and the distinction of past present and future is not made clear like the Bible in how spilt it is in it's chronolgy of events and covenants.

This is why stoning women still happens in these places while Jesus of the Bible taught us not to cast the first stone and we don't. Where does that act stop in Islam and where does it say it is an old age law? It does not, it has reintroduced priest like laws that are no longer in use and were only for the Levites who had to be extra Holy but where the Bible liberates the Koran puts up again the bondage signs which Christ done away with, but of course Jesus in the Koran is not the Christ so it is a different religion and reinterpretation.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by The time lord]

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by andrewh7
That's ironic - the US installed the Shah in Iran in 1953 after toppling a democratically-elected government that didn't support the US. Where was your deference to democracy then? Oh yeah - democracy is only good as long as people vote for the things you like or you simply don't care about it one way or the other.

TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.

We are talking about a popular vote not whether to overthrow a Government.
The people have spoken no amount of myopic non-Swiss opinion will change how they feel.

No. It's not totally irrelevant if you read the post I was responding to. The poster said that we should not care what the Swiss do as part of their democratic process. I pointed out that the US isn't interested in supporting democracies but rather nations that are willing to bend to its interests. If "regime change" against a democratic nation is necessary to do this, then we could care less about the civil liberties of those people. You can't blindly stand by ideals one moment and then throw away those ideals when they are inconvenient to your own interests.

If the Swiss had started banning crosses, we could be yelling at the top of our lungs. However, since it's going after Muslims, we could care less about interfering with their "democratic process." It's opportunistic hypocrisy.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
Sure a vote is a vote but still, it's pretty disgusting to ban the construction of a building where one goes to worship.

They are not outlawing the practice of the Islamic faith nor banning the building of mosques just not allowing the minarets.

You're obviously not a scholar of US constitutional law. Under our Constitution, the government cannot pass a statute that violates the establishment clause blatantly on its face or indirectly by its effects. The statute was obviously designed to be a direct attack on a particular religion. You're either a fool for not seeing this or you simply could care less about how freely Muslims may practice their faith. Be a critical thinker for a moment and imagine how you would respond to the banning of a Cross or a Star of David. Minarets are functional components of Islam because they are used a visual focal point for daily prayers.

Our Constitution is an expression of our most treasured values. If you could care less about how those values, deemed by most Americans to be inherent human rights, are discarded abroad, then your opinion is irrelevant to me. I suppose we're lucky that the people who founded the US cared a little more than you do.


[edit on 12-12-2009 by andrewh7]

Originally posted by The time lord
The problem is that they practice what they preach and actually have them as laws in Iran and once populations grow in Europe the momentum of extreamism falls into the law of averages but people don't think that far ahead these days so it will creep up on your freedoms.
[edit on 7-12-2009 by The time lord]

The problem is that that Christians are hypocrites who have forgotten their own history and ignored quotations from their own Bible that might paint their own religion as barbaric. It wasn't so long ago that the Bible was used to suppress the rights of minorities and women. It wasn't so long ago that it was used an excuse to torture and kill intellectuals and dissidents.

Apparently, humility and the teaching of history aren't endorsed practices of the modern Christian church. You'd much rather judge everyone by a standard that you refuse to apply to yourself. If you can explain to me the difference between a crazy guy blowing himself up and crazy guy ordering a bombing strike on a predominately civilian target, I'd really like to hear it. Rumsfeld put Bible quotes on all the covers of his Iraq war briefings for President Bush. It's difficult to argue to the world you aren't fighting a holy war in the face of such conduct.

If your plan is to wipe out a billion Muslims, who do you plan to classify as the enemy when you're done? Who is the next target for trillions of dollars of "defense" spending? $3 trillion spent in Iraq and 100s of thousands dead civilians! If that's Christianity, you can keep it!

[edit on 12-12-2009 by andrewh7]

Originally posted by CanadianDream420

Originally posted by hangedman13
Really, does Iran or any other Islamic nation do anything for the other religions in their nations?

Iran has the largest Jewish population other than Israel..


Oh yeah, and Hollywood

lol not even close! they don't even break into the top 20

As for Switzerland, I'm not sure that this ban would really make a difference. The muslim population in Switerland will most likely outnumber the natives within 50 years anyway, so this ban will definitely be short-lived...

Originally posted by andrewh7
You're either a fool for not seeing this or you simply could care less about how freely Muslims may practice their faith. Be a critical thinker for a moment and imagine how you would respond to the banning of a Cross or a Star of David. Minarets are functional components of Islam because they are used a visual focal point for daily prayers.

Our Constitution is an expression of our most treasured values. If you could care less about how those values, deemed by most Americans to be inherent human rights, are discarded abroad, then your opinion is irrelevant to me. I suppose we're lucky that the people who founded the US cared a little more than you do.

Pull your head out of your backside for a second. This is the Swiss our "Constitution" Does not cover what goes on over there.
It's irrelevant!

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by adifferentbreed

 

Unfortunately that seems to be the case.

Do as we say or there will be consequences.

Oh stop it
My sides started huting from laughing.

Iran saying do as we say or there will be concequences lol

Here have some democracy Iraq
have some more democracy Afghanistan, we don't like how you treat your women.

LOL

I think that there should be allowed a gigantic Catholic Church in the middle of Tehran.

And a huge Bahai temple.

There simply isn't enough temples to Brahma around, and the craddle of civilization should surely rectify this!

Originally posted by CanadianDream420

Originally posted by hangedman13
Really, does Iran or any other Islamic nation do anything for the other religions in their nations?

Iran has the largest Jewish population other than Israel..


Oh yeah, and Hollywood

"My father never lived to see his dream come true of an all-Yiddish-speaking Canada."
David Steinberg