Can a Muslim be a real American?

whoa, moved all the way to BTS hu?
why not just throw it in the trash bin?
do the points raised in the OP not deserve to be discussed?

OR ARE YOU AFRAID TO OFFEND someone?

Originally posted by joey_hv
Can a good Muslim be a good American?

Yes, by definition. Americans have freedom of religion.

I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically – no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god of Arabia

Allah is translated "God." The English word "God" derives from the pagan god of fertility "Gad." Does that mean Christians worship a pagan god named Gad?

Religiously – no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam.

Good Jews, Christians, and Muslims will all go to heaven according to Islam. Muslims are very strict about believing in One God, so they don't like polytheism because polytheists deny that there is a Supreme God. In that sense, polytheism is atheistic (doesn't believe in a Theos).

Scripturally – no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Last I checked Americans have freedom of religion. The five pillars of Islam are faith in God, daily prayer, charity to the poor, fasting once a year, and making a pilgramage to Mecca (birthplace of Islam) once in your lifetime.

None of those five pillars is inherently anti-American. Since we have freedom of religion in this country, I don't see why you bring up the five pillars of Islam.

Geographically – no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Again, what is wrong with praying five times a day? Who cares what direction they face when they pray? We still have freedom in this country. I'll never let you tell me that I am not allowed to pray to God.

Socially – no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

You lie!

Politically – no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

This coming from someone who doesn't even want to allow people to pray five times a day. We have freedom of religion in this country, buddy. You're the anti-American.

Domestically – no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him.

I do know that "woman" is a metaphor for one's emotional and weak nature (the Lower Self). As a man, you are supposed to overcome this weak nature through self-discipline (the Higher Self).

It's a metaphor, like most Scriptures. Unless you still believe in Adam and Eve and the world is flat.

(Like the Old Testament says -- see Joshua praying to God to stop the sun from moving; guess what, the sun already doesn't move).

Intellectually – no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

It's a fact among respected scholars that the Bible [B]is[/B] corrupt. Even the translations into English are totally botched. What to say of the corruption of the original texts.

Philosophically – no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Actually, the Enlightenment period was largely a result of the import of Muslim ideas. The Christians were responsible for the Dark Ages.

Spiritually – no. Because when we declare “one nation under God,” the Christian’s God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran’s 99 excellent names.

The definition of God and the definition of Allah are exactly the same because Allah is the Arabic word for God!

It's like saying Catholics don't believe in our God because they believe in Deus.

Originally posted by joey_hv

Originally posted by Dumbass
So again...

What is for you the real american? What is the thesis or tool you use to make a comparison with the statements of your showed email?

Okay, for me a "Real American" is someone that truly loves this country and feels blessed to live here. Someone that would defend this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. Someone that believes that America was set apart by God to be a shining beacon to the rest of the world. Someone that believes in freedom and is willing to fight for it. Someone that is willing to assimilate this culture upon immigrating here and should agree to swear allegiance to this country above any other place.

Just a few points.

lol that explains a lot.


Okay, for me a "Real (fill in your country)" is someone that truly loves this country and feels blessed to live here. Someone that would defend this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. Someone that believes that (fill in your country)? was set apart by (fill in your religion) to be a shining beacon to the rest of the world. Someone that believes in freedom and is willing to fight for it. Someone that is willing to assimilate this culture upon immigrating here and should agree to swear allegiance to this country above any other place.

it sounds like standard patrionism with religious intent to me, nothing special for america.

The email is obviously fake, as can be evidenced (as it was by mister.old.school right at the start), by the very first point.

The rest of the points are pretty much nonsense as well.

Besides, according to that, Christians aren't really "Real Americans" either:

Theologically= their allegiance is to the Trinity, the pagan god of the Romans.
Relgiously= they accept no other religion except Christianity.
Politically= they must submit to the priests, who teach rejection of all other religions
and so on and so forth.


Also, Joey...according to your definition of a "Real" American, atheists, hindus, taoists, etc. cannot be "real americans".
According to your point of "Someone that believes that America was set apart by God to be a shining beacon to the rest of the world", "Real" Americans must either believe a lie, or believe that God has failed. America is hardly a "shining beacon" (torture scandals, political scandals, war scandals, economic problems, crime problems etc.). I believe that America has the potential to be great. I believe that all the pieces are there. I believe that, occasionally, true "Americanness" shines through. However, to believe that it is a "shining beacon set by God" is a little naive.

And I'm not so sure about your point on "assimilation into the culture", either. America today is made up of at least 98% immigrants, and I'm pretty sure NONE of those assimilated into Native American Culture. Other than that, all the "culture" was imported along with the immigrants.

Even today, most major cities have a "chinatown", most have areas of high concentration of south americans, all who contribute significantly to the country (economically, culturally, etc). Are they not "REAL" Americans?

[edit on 2-12-2009 by babloyi]

reply to post by joey_hv
Real American

Someone that believes that America was set apart by God to be a shining beacon to the rest of the world.

So when you're occupying another country, do you pray toward America?

I do know some actual Muslims, and they do love America, and they for all intents and purposes are American. While they might have been born in Iraq, they live here for a reason, that reason is they love this country.

If they didn't they wouldn't live here. Yes they do worship Allah and they do pray 5 times a day, (well, when they can, usually during religious hollidays).

But they like the same things other Americans like. Some of them don't take their religion so seriously, we sit and drink together, tell dirty jokes, and their wives don't always wear a head scarf.

So to answer the OP question, yes Muslims can be real Americans.

reply to post by joey_hv


So this would make every one of my Muslim friends a bad Muslim? I am a Christian btw.

And what's real American? I dunno, only lived in USA for 6 months last year, mostly in Atlanta and some time in LA. There's a distinct difference between the two places' cultures. So I have to say, it's a bad idea to generalize.

In a word, no.
As stated prior, Muslims, followers of Islam, have proven that they are ineffectual at ;
A) keeping their more radical elements in check, as the Christians do with the prosecution, (some say persecution), of the anti-abortionists.
B) Speaking up when the followers of "Radical Islam" do stupid crap
C)THEY give up their young to Islamic Jihadist radicals that only the most extreme Christians would understand.

and when is is going to be OK to discuss the Jewish Holy War?
Or the war the "Christian" USA wages?
I, for one, am tired of religious intolerance.
I did my ounce and pound for the free expression of .
Jew, Christian, Muslim,... We are all bloodied.
And the peace loving Hindis too.
And the Confucionists and all the rest.
How about we all take a deep breath and tell each other;
"Hey, what you think is OK with me, not my cup of tea, but if your good, I am too"

Originally posted by joey_hv
From an email I received.

Something to ponder…Can a Muslim be a real American?

what does being American have to do with religion?
ANY religion?

don't forget...being an American (for any of us)
is made possible, defined, and guaranteed,
by two unique documents:

The Constitution & The Bill of Rights

the latter of which begins with these words:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

so what's the point?

IMO, anyone who believes in, honors, and stands up for, these same ideals and principles...not only for themselves but equally for their neighbors and fellow-citizens...can be (AND IS) a "REAL American!"

reply to post by joey_hv

why not just throw it in the trash bin?

that would be the easy and obvious choice - fortunately for you this stuff gets to stick around and be discussed

do the points raised in the OP not deserve to be discussed?

we are discussing them - just here now - in BTS

unfortunately we don't get to star in BTS - there are a few posts here that deserve them

not yours

OR ARE YOU AFRAID TO OFFEND someone?

no

explain to me what a real American is

wondering if you even know



[edit on 12/6/2009 by Spiramirabilis]