Atheists to protect ATS - Fight the Fundies!

reply to post by Revolution-2012


Good points my friend, but let me counter. In response to me implying that somebody believe in something I'll say this: It's imperative that you believe water flows in our rivers, I have a problem with you telling me that it doesn't. You might on the other hand have a problem with me telling you that something exists that you've yet to see.

Problem is that Athiest's think that Science is on the breaking edge of the truth, when all it is is a smart dog eating left over crumbs trails. God is about 2,000 miles down the crumb trail.

Unfortunately, our representatives are destroying our reputation at a record pace. The things Athiest's believe are true for the most part...but they lack divine vision or intuition to finalize the story.

You said that in an Athiests brain, things that can not be scientifically proven, is of no interest to them. I'll respond by saying that a blind person will only notice things he can touch, smell, taste and hear.

Wouldn't you agree that telling someone to close their eyes after they've opened them is ludicrous? Science is right! True believers know this for a fact, it's just not at the point of ultimate truth yet. It may never be if TPTB have anything to say about it.

the problem with trying to "take it" to the rediculously religious is that they don't care about your scientific whatever.

They don't need evidence to defend their stance. Its the whole essence of religion, you must believe. Once you believe its the truth little can be done to alter that.

The biggest problem for me is that I just don't think its that big of a problem. Division will run through humanity forever. The real question is can we learn to tolerate one anothers quirks.

Theres no need for a "call to arms". Are you planning an inquisition or what. It's not your place to learn them religious folks some proper beliefs.

Instead of trying to fight an unwinnable battle against the brainlocked religious folks why dont you try to learn why they feel that way. Then become comfortable with the fact that you can't change their mind and it is not your responsibility. This is the first step towards acceptance.

To single out the religious as dogmatic spiritual geurillas only widens the divide. While im not trying to defend religion, I am trying to defend ones right to be accepted with any beliefs. If they aren't out burning witches or clubbing homosexuals then relax.

It occurs to me that we all rant on here about things we are passionate about. The religious people here listen they input and while it does occasionaly leak into places it doesn't belong the religious have far from hijacked the site.

I figure if they can tolerate my bloviations about theoretical physics ( alot of which is no more proven than religion) I can surely handle their flights of fancy aswell.

Folks please remember when you post these types of threads that there is no more evidence for their not being a god as there is for there being one. So before you go spouting off about how unscientific it is to have faith in religion remember that its just as unscientific to rule it void out of hand. We really have no evidence either way and arguing that we do is just wrong.

I'm back. Please, I beg of you. Let's deny ignorance. Will anyone humor me? I will get down on my knees if you like. Please, pretty please, will somebody with strong views talk with me about my 2 posts about the whole materialist/spiritualist and man/woman thing. Pretty please. I feel so alone. I will give you a kiss. I love you. Please? I am in a good mood and am in no mood to fight. I value your opinion. Please? I will wag my tail if you like. I love you.

Edit: They are in the middle of page 10 and right near the top of page 11. Please? I will also add that I agree that many of the posts espousing a center also have their own tinge of vitriol. You will find none in a discussion with me. Please? I love you.

[edit on 2-12-2009 by orwellianunenlightenment]

Atheists are the scrooges of religion. "BAH HUMBUG!"
or maybe the Grinch's. I just think most of them have had poor experiences and/or no experiences at all.

On another note, you're not fighting to protect ATS. You're fighting to protect yourself, which is natural. But, the point I'd like to make is, YOU'RE NOT IN DANGER.

We religious types understand that you see things the way you see things. How am I supposed to change your mind about something as "ridiculous" to believe in as God? I'm not. You gotta build your own faith. I can't build it for you. And with that, I am sure you do not believe in faith because it is blind and doesn't follow logic and reason. So, by deduction, you're never going to believe and I'm okay with that.

To each their own. Just remember to "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" when it comes to those fundies!!

reply to post by orwellianunenlightenment



True believers do NOT have the fears of reading scientific papers and discoveries. Only the believers who have not personally witnessed God who are afraid of their faith being altered. Thereby they had no faith to begin with.

The problem is that Non-believers LIMIT their world to science. That's a tragedy. But don't worry. We each get our own personal education towards the light. So don't worry. You're not going to burn in hell. But perhaps in that last few seconds of your life when you are slayed, you might find yourself whirlling in a seemingly eternal vortex of guilt, fear and darkness. And as your physical body shuts down, your spirit just MIGHT......MIGHT find it's way out of that inter-dimensional vortex. And in the few seconds that it takes your physical body to die, the time in your dimension will seem like eternity, because that is the only way to describe it in the 3rd dimension.

In that seemingly eternal time, depending on how much blindness needs to be healed, you will eventually go to the light. Most of us do. So non-believers can sometimes take a bit longer to get there. Some of them will be locked in that dark state Realm forever. That's what Hell is. Just imagine the most horrible day you could ever have. I'm talkin deaths in family kind of stuff. Hold onto that emotion. Then add in a couple of gallons of guilt because you caused the death. Then toss in a vision of pissing on that person's grave and laughing about it. Then curl up into a dark alley overcome with guilt, humbleness, quench for forgiveness, unescapable despair. Now imagine that being for a few thousand years or so.

But you need proof. You'll get proof someday. Hopefully, that road won't be yours because that would truly suck.

I've had a similar experience myself, with a near death experience. I came out on the other side after what seemed like an eternity. Fortunate for me, I was revived. So let's just say that I urge you to consider delving into the spirit world a bit more to find some much needed answers for your own life. If I may suggest respectfully.



[edit on 2-12-2009 by juzchilln]

reply to post by juzchilln


Very interesting viewpoint. I have a similiar one however mine may seem more....well..."religious".

I concur with all that you've stated except for that I believe this to be true up until the harvesting. I think there is a type of "waiting area" for those that have passed away, but judgment comes at a later date. So, if it takes you TOO long to recognise the goodness, well....."I got 99 problems but that ain't 1"

reply to post by juzchilln


Actually, I agree with you. Trust me, I encountered a source that was far more beautiful than anything I could possibly imagine. Everything flows together and makes so much sense in this light. I was not addressing you. I was more addressing those, that, in my opinion, are soldier mirror images of each other. I also try to be careful with my words. Nobody finds the light without some sort of bridge filling the gap, whether it be the many experiences and choices of one's life, or the words and actions of another. My goal is to bridge that gap, so that is how I use language. I am both very emotional and very logical. This caused great conflict for a while. Friend, I am just trying to bridge a gap.

Edit: Please reread my post about the spiritualist and materialist. I am saying that they can and do align under a certain context, when a sort of pattern that is common to us all us followed. Please, reread it. I think you will see that we are at least in the same book, if not on the same page. I understand how powerful spirituality is. When applied, it tends to be a miracle or a plague. It is very powerful, but it must be applied with love, or it turns against us.

[edit on 2-12-2009 by orwellianunenlightenment]

[edit on 2-12-2009 by orwellianunenlightenment]

reply to post by Revolution-2012


And it was done with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

reply to post by juzchilln


That is assuming a "god" exists. All anyone has is opinion and assumption.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I am doing this with tongue firmly implanted in cheek as well, as I thoroughly enjoy your wit and intellectual honesty. You ooze the personality of a "seeker." I ask you, what happens when you have questioned everything, and all that remains is to question yourself?

Hi,

Fascinating thread! Normally I just read ATS, but this thread has compelled me
to be more than just a lurker and give you a personal experience of mine
with religious "fundies".

My last relationship ended 6 months ago. We had been dating for 2.5 years, of
which we had been living together for 2.
She was a devout Christian and I have never subscribed to any religion.
For 2 and a half years, our difference in beliefs never posed a problem, quite
the opposite, it prompted many rewarding philosophical discussions. Each of
these discussions typically built up towards the climax of her position relying
on her faith, and my position relying on tangible phenomenon and researched facts.
It was at this point that the discussions would end, as there is no argument
against an individual's sincerely held beliefs.

I began to notice a change in her in the last couple of months.
She spent more nights at church groups than at home.
She began to believe that extra-marital sex was a big no-no, despite it
being ok for 2 years. She began to take serious exception to blasphemy
and even the phrase "Oh my God". I would argue that the person uttering
the phrase is very likely not to be referring to "her" God, but her response
was that there is "ONLY ONE GOD!".

When the warning signs became enough that ignoring them was no longer
an option, our discussions turned nasty. Somehow I was at fault for not
having "faith" in the same thing she did. This was not a problem for over 2
years. The sex dried up. The intelligent conversation dried up. Then one
morning, she told me that "God does not want her to have a secular
boyfriend/husband".

Being male, my built-in insecurity told me it was a male friend trying to park
his tanks on my lawn. I could just picture it. Chitchat reveals she has a boyfriend.
Probing reveals he is not Christian. Bingo, a prophecy from
above instructing her to shed the secular mate and find a Christian one.

I was floored. I had no argument to compete with "God's word", and thats
how we ended.

The Christian church turned my girlfriend into a fundamentalist.
The Christian church destroyed my relationship. This was the girl I was
going to spend the rest of my life with.
Applying a bit of thought once the emo stage was over, it was clear that
either she wanted out and this was her ticket, or she was manipulated by
her church.

Either way, I have come to realise that I am better off not having someone
so close to me who is so easily indoctrinated/manipulated/controlled.
That single point brought the closure I sought.

While I enjoy Richard Dawkin's, he himself is a fundamentalist. His views
and opinions are so overt, that if you were to change the flavour, he
sounds just like a fundamentalist televangelist.

Which brings me to my point (apologies for the wall of text).
What you believe is up to you, desire for others to share your beliefs in
whatever is natural. Demanding others to share your beliefs is not.
This extremism is responsible for most wars. (Figuratively) "calling to arms"
against Christians will not bring us to the happy medium that definately
exists. Respect & understanding are the tools for that job, should either
side desire it.

Thank you for reading my story.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Well there's some good news for you because you're going to get your proof eventually. And it will be undeniable.

The search for truth means that you can not be under the influence of the teachings of your own fellow man. This is why it was important to remove religion from Slaves and force them to read and learn only what man teaches.

The information that science provides is mostly if not completely correct when applied to 3rd Dimension logic. But when you lock yourself into the 3rd dimension, which publicly available science is currently attempting to break out of, you open your world to a completely new dimension and perception.

A new perception where science is only a child on the right path towards truth. But when you personally witness the inter-dimensional existence we all have, you will have your proof.

The ancient cultures were trying to pass this information onto future civilizations, but the Powers of this world, have all but turned it into a tourist's curiosity. Man oh man...this is a broken world. Full of idiotic athiests and silly religious people. Both have no clue of the power one can gain by witnessing God personally.

The definition of religion REALLY needs to be updated to include, especially, the virtually universal enabling of secrecy-BASED government(s) in general. How many people just ACCEPT, for example, that the National "Security" STATE and Black Budget, without batting an eye or having a single thought about it, are just "normal" and perfectly acceptable? It's pure cultist brainwashing, pure religion. Of course that's not saying I'm accepting of religion in its traditional-familiar definition.

Originally posted by Kaytagg
But, eh, yea.. I agree with you about the religious stuff. People who do that need to keep it to themselves, as it has no bearing on 99% of conspiracy topics.

But on the other hand when someone posts something absurd like "New study proves someones "god" is nothing more than one's own image! Religion crumbles..." then you have to expect people to disagree. My own beliefs aside, I see no reason why everyone, regardless of their beliefs, can't be free to debate here with or without proof. This is after all a conspiracy site. Without people who believe in the impossible or unlikely what would scientists/debunkers have to bitch about here? It would change ATS into a science blog site. So if thats what you want, go find one. Leave the believers alone and stop trying to segregate people based on what they do or do not believe. What cowards want to make posts like the one I used above and NOT give the other side a chance to speak? Be open to all debate or get off the site.

P.S.- can any non-believers link me a posted topic of a believer damning/attacking non-believers on this site? I know they have to be here on ATS or you would not be so worked up. And what I said goes for the believers too.

[edit on 2-12-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]

[edit on 2-12-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]

Originally posted by juzchilln
...this is a broken world. Full of idiotic athiests and silly religious people. Both have no clue of the power one can gain by witnessing God personally.

Have you "witnessed" God personally? In a tangible, measurable fashion?
Or do you witness your deity via your faith? You "believe" it is there to such
a degree that you project its presence onto scientifically explainable secular
phenomena.

reply to post by juzchilln


See, we do agree on much. Your mention on 3rd dimensional logic perfectly parallels my post on the materialist/spiritualist. Logic (materialism) and emotion (the egg that bears the seed of spirituality) are necessarily linked. People who rely only on logic are trapped in that shell. It cannot change a perspective, but merely further reinforce it. It takes the emotional/logical alignment to give rise to epiphany, and this births a spiral to escape that isolated system. Perhaps logic can be viewed as a line, while emotion is viewed as a circle. When the two are not aligned, or "hate" each other, then the logic runs into "THE WALL." When they reconcile, spiritual births magnify forever.

A huge problem in our world, as I will beat this stick, is the divide between men and women. The circle and line work together whether or not one is aware. If they are at odds, it creates a downward spiral. If they fully come together in love, they create an upward, heavenly spiral.

reply to post by Mush

The Christian church turned my girlfriend into a fundamentalist.
The Christian church destroyed my relationship. This was the girl I was
going to spend the rest of my life with.
Applying a bit of thought once the emo stage was over, it was clear that
either she wanted out and this was her ticket, or she was manipulated by
her church.

Im sorry for your loss but your reasoning is flawed. Your girlfriend made the decision to become a fundamentalist she also made the decision not to be with you. Pointing your finger at someone else will never make you bigger or better than anything. If anything it makes you smaller as it is an admition that someone can effect you without you being responsible for it to some degree. You cannot fault the church because the bonds that you made with your girlfriend were not strong enough for her or you to convert or strong enough to keep her becoming a "fundamentalist".

Evening folks, OP here again.

I'm going to try and bring this ship back on course, and help everyone get back to what ATS is all about - conspiracies.

First off, may I say thank you to EVERYONE who has contributed, you've all been great in expressing differing opinions and interesting takes on things. That excludes the trolls from all points of view who are here just to flame - you lot can improve your ATS standing by contributing nicely, try it, it's not hard.

First off, I'd like to say that I think my points have indeed come out a little cock-eyed. I will try and explain where I'm coming from a little more.

The conspiracy here is as follows -

Proponents of religious reasoning are purposefully using the flag and star system (and post-spamming / trolling) to disrupt the dissemination of truth and clarity regarding important ATS subjects. Specifically, they concentrate on anything that challenges or attacks their religious convictions. As the main group of these fundamentalists are Christian, I challenge the Christians here first.

The Christians on this site are constantly issuing the ATS populace with a 'Christian-Tint' on all subjects, and as such distorting truth. To go against this distortion of fact, is to risk the wrath of the Christian Mafia present on this site. (And certain moderators may I add - who don't seem to be able to use their 'non-moderator contribution tool' as often as they should do.)

ATS is indeed here to 'deny ignorance', and I believe it would be ignorant of us not to acknowledge the disruptive influence that the application of religious doctrine to discussion on ATS has. I do NOT condone censorship, or suppression of information relating to or regarding religion. I do NOT want religious people removed or banned from ATS. What i DO want to see on ATS, is the renunciation of 'preaching' and the stifling of the application of religious conviction to posting on ATS.

Since so many of the vocal members on ATS appear to be religious fundamentalists, (potentially including some moderators, however I don't support this idea - it is merely a debatable issue) I think Atheists here need to group together and make a stand. Making a united presence to guard against the distortion / suppression of potentially important information that fundies would like to see drowned.

I have studied history, I know that religion is possibly the 'greatest story ever told'. But I also know that it is just that - a story, a fable, a myth, a well-used hollywood franchise, an ancient-context allegorical set of moral commentaries. That's all - interesting, but not relevant to modern thinking, and most certainly not historically accurate - let alone REAL!

To let religion be applied to critical thinking, to sceptical debate, to scientific analysis is a tragedy, and an insult to all of us who hold science, logic and reality in great esteem. Those who believe in paranormalism / spiritualism - you are not people of faith - you merely contend that there is a force or set of entities as to which science has not been able to provide explanations yet.

An Agnostic - Doesn't KNOW either way. You do NOT viscerally contend that there IS a god. Nor do you deny that there isn't one. More importantly, you're not that bothered either way.

An Atheist - Believes in empirical, logical and scientific methodology in terms of extrapolating reality. Stories provide evidence to none of the above, as such they must be totally discounted.

A Believer / Person of Faith - Holds the idea that not everything can be explained by science, and that fictional stories can be used to explain the unknown. I applaud these people for their theoretical-skills, on a site like ATS this capacity is vital. But arguing that these stories are facts? This is detrimental to the sites purpose! People of 'faith' try to sell certainty where only doubt should remain - this would not accepted in a court of law, nor in a scientific examination of a subject. Not being able to prove something either way presents a pair of 'null' choices. Neither is fact - therefore neither exists until one or the other is proven beyond doubt using scientific method. Stories do not count.

Please feel free to debate the idea of introducing 'religion-free zones' as suggested a while back in this thread.

The Para.

[edit on 2-12-2009 by Parallex]

[edit on 2-12-2009 by Parallex]

It is not in my interest, nor anyones for that matter, to instruct them on proper beliefs...we each have our own path.
This is a copy of a post a few days ago.
It is my belief based on experience and is in now way affiliated with religion.
The purpose of sharing this is to elucidate the possiblity of how restricting discussion to religion, ignores the fact that any Creator which 'may' exist, would necessarily have existed well before religion...and as any discussion related to athiesm does not need to even postulate religion, but focus on the potential existence of a Creator - a personal Creator whom we find, not in books and sermons (although some do) but inside US!



LOVE

link to thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...
OP: God for real

My "God" does not identify itself as such.
It is the unseen, unknown, unspoken CREATOR of Creation...alive and moving in all things, bringing into existence all worlds, planes and consciousness of being.

'IT' does not require recognition, in fact, any 'higher' being which does so is far from godhood, or even their own true inner God-fragment.

For any being, no matter its power, which claims godly status, has in fact established separation in the minds of its non-god patrons.
And this is 'impossible' for the true creator of-ALL-in-ALL or ALL that IS.

For if you were to experience one moment in the nature of Creator, there will be no question of its omni-quality & your connection within.

So my fellow brothers and sisters, Be AWARE of any entity claiming superiority...for in reality there are none above another.
You have a God-fragment inside you and as such, you & me, we, all are Sovereign & Integral entities of Source.
~

LOVE

reply to post by Parallex


I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure—that is all that agnosticism means.
—Clarence Darrow


I am agnostic and tend to look at existance from every direction I possibly can. One conclusion I've arrived at is that;

The human 'ego' is so immense that "man" regards any smattering of sidelight pertaining to the essence of the cosmos, as 'definitive'.
He attempts to emulate what he believes to be his intellect.
Then he will go to extremes to push his so called insight and minimal knowledge upon others who may have another point of view.


Please, always remember..... Everything Is open to Interpretation.


"You look at the floor and see the floor. I look at the floor and see molecules"
-Dan Aykroyd


"We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren.
The real nature of things we shall never know."
-Albert Einstein


There is also a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened........ Appearance of the Universe.


With that said;
What might be next exclude believers of bigfoot, comments on sentient beings on Mars, those who swear they have seen shadow people or UFOs ?
Maybe ATS should censor those who believe in Fairy existence and "Reptillians"

Don't be mistaken, Belief, is Faith,that something truly exists.

Parallex,
You could "control" the issue you have with folks voicing religious beliefs, that don't coincide with your belief, by constructing your own conspiracy site that only accepts comments, arguments and proof positive (either way) from people with exactly your perspective. Then you can censor all other thought expressed there.

This could alleviate you of any ire you carry for all others who you find so vexing.

Your world comes across to me as so very small.

You don't know what you don't know !


[edit on 2-12-2009 by azureskys]