The damage caused by under Empoyment

When I saw last year the police chiefs stating there would be a “summer of rage”.. I thought, what a load of B*ll*cks, this is just government hype and spin to keep everyone afraid and fearful.

Being a process person, I know we were not at that breaking point yet, but would be in a year if things are not done to reverse the damage being done by under employment (especially while the fat cats still get their nice bonuses)

I feel that under employment is worse than unemployment.. I've been through both, and my experience of both is that being unemployed you adjust to your new situation and try to improve your lot, there is hope within the despair. While being under employed your simply clinging on, and there is only despair.. Everything is just out of reach as you slip more and more into debt, which I found more demoralising than being unemployed..

The current global situation with the meltdown reminds me of the 1830 Captain Swing riots that took place in my part of the world, where the root cause was under employment.. in 1830 the commoners felt they could not go through another winter they had just faced, that turned to threats and then into riots to try to improve pay and conditions so they could survive.

I see a number of parallels in today's world, especially with this jobless recovery we seem to be in, the rich are bailing out the rich, as the poor are left to pay for it, which is a soul destroying position to be in..

By next spring we in the UK will have a new government, but even if it is the same crowd we have now, taxes will need to be raised, services need to be cut to pay for the bailout of the rich.. all of which affects the under employed by taking that bit more out of their wage packets, which in turn puts survival that bit further out of reach. All in all, a very negative reinforcing downward spiral for those who are under employed.

So I feel we face similar winter of discontent as the Swing riots and next spring I believe people will say to themselves, "I don't want to go through another year/winter like that" at that point I feel we will be in the position to have the spark that will ignite a summer of rage..

I see the process we are going through at the moment that the number of under employed will increase as we go into the New Year as the retail sector gets hit by a poor Christmas..

If I was to make a prediction, it would be that if we continue on this path, by Spring we will see an explosion of anger from the under employed. I would love to hear your thoughts!


Copy of a Captain Swing letter.

Sir
Your name is down amongst the Black hearts in the Black Book and this is to advise you and the like of you, who are Parson Justasses, to make your wills Ye have been the Blackguard Enemies of the People on all occasions,
Ye have not yet done as ye ought
Swing

edit poorly worded title

[edit on 1/12/09 by thoughtsfull]

The east Asian countries seem to be doing MUCH MUCH better than the west. Why? I don't know. I don't know what to believe anymore. Wallstreet is crazy and the fact that the DOW is almost up to 11000 is mind bogglnig to say the least. I mean it seems to weather just about anything thrown at it as far as bad news. I don't see how anything will change going forward that wouldn't or shouldn't have already. I mean all these gloom and doomers screaming 2010 is going to be worse than 2009 etc. Yeah on paper it looks that way and technically it should be that way. But our debt keeps spiraling and growing exponentially and the stock market doesn't bat an eye. Unemployment is still creeping up. Nothing happens. I thought the market would have started adjusting down already but it just keeps inching up. I see and know tons of people out of jobs yet I also see the same amount or more spending like nothing has changed. I think the only thing really happening is the gap between the rich and the middle class/poor is growing. Everyone says our country can't keep spending it's way out of debt yet that's exactly what's happening. China keeps buying up our bonds and treasuries.

I don't know. I don't see how this can continue. The chips should have fallen as they may in 2008. If things do bust in the next few years it's going to be bad real bad. I feel we are headed to war. War with Iran specifically.

reply to post by Zosynspiracy


the dow is just a con. There is a massive fund behind the scenes to run the dow, and the government runs it and there is no real stock market. If the government are fixing the market, why do people bother with it, as its a con.

I stumbled upon this quote in a historical article from the 1920s. I thought it was pretty interesting and shows how nothing has changed in almost 90 years. NOTHING!

Whatever the gold in the country, the wealth is still greater. There is more wealth in the United States than there is gold in the world. One year’s products of the farms of the United States exceeds in money value all the gold in the world.

Yet, under our present system, the burgeoning bulk of the country’s wealth must pass through the narrow neck of Money. And the Money must pass through the still narrower neck of Gold. And the controller of the Gold, under our present system, controls the world. There is more wealth than there is money; there is more money than there is gold; money exists at the pleasure of gold; wealth moves at the pleasure of money. Whoever sits at the neck of money, opening or closing as he will, controls the movement of the world’s wealth. And the world’s prosperity depends on the movement of that wealth. When wealth stands still and does not pass from hand to hand, the world’s circulation has stopped; the world becomes economically sick.

The scarcity of cash in hand has led to Credit. Credit is a form of barter. It is a form of dealing by which many transactions are carried on, only the final one being cleared in money. It is a device which has its dangers, in spite of the efforts of apologists to exploit its advantages. But one thing the system of Credit indubitably does—it allows the money masters to hang on to the Cash. When the world is caught, it is caught with paper, not with Cash. The Cash is always in the hands of those who extol the advantage of the Credit System. Who holds money holds power, and will hold it, until real barter or real money comes in fashion again.

In 1919-1920, according to one of the best monetary authorities in the United States, the total shrinkage in values of the products of our fields, mines, factories, mills and forests represented a sum greater than the total gold supply of the world. It runs as high as the total amount of Liberty Bonds outstanding.

I stumbled upon this quote in a historical article from the 1920s. I thought it was pretty interesting and shows how nothing has changed in almost 90 years. NOTHING!

Whatever the gold in the country, the wealth is still greater. There is more wealth in the United States than there is gold in the world. One year’s products of the farms of the United States exceeds in money value all the gold in the world.

Yet, under our present system, the burgeoning bulk of the country’s wealth must pass through the narrow neck of Money. And the Money must pass through the still narrower neck of Gold. And the controller of the Gold, under our present system, controls the world. There is more wealth than there is money; there is more money than there is gold; money exists at the pleasure of gold; wealth moves at the pleasure of money. Whoever sits at the neck of money, opening or closing as he will, controls the movement of the world’s wealth. And the world’s prosperity depends on the movement of that wealth. When wealth stands still and does not pass from hand to hand, the world’s circulation has stopped; the world becomes economically sick.

The scarcity of cash in hand has led to Credit. Credit is a form of barter. It is a form of dealing by which many transactions are carried on, only the final one being cleared in money. It is a device which has its dangers, in spite of the efforts of apologists to exploit its advantages. But one thing the system of Credit indubitably does—it allows the money masters to hang on to the Cash. When the world is caught, it is caught with paper, not with Cash. The Cash is always in the hands of those who extol the advantage of the Credit System. Who holds money holds power, and will hold it, until real barter or real money comes in fashion again.

In 1919-1920, according to one of the best monetary authorities in the United States, the total shrinkage in values of the products of our fields, mines, factories, mills and forests represented a sum greater than the total gold supply of the world. It runs as high as the total amount of Liberty Bonds outstanding.

reply to post by Zosynspiracy


War would sort out the under employment issue for sure... but if it doesn't kick off with Iran I see something nasty brewing in the people..

The fat cats get richer and get what they want while it is those at the bottom that actually pay for it.. it's a long process of getting someone so despondent that they will actually do something about the problem..

My time line for people to snap under the pressure and do something about the problems we all face would be about 18 months..

(I am of the opinion both sides use any and all political point scoring to keep themselves in power and the people afraid, and Iran is one of those)

edit spelling

[edit on 1/12/09 by thoughtsfull]

First let me say a gem of a thread in the flotsam, and unfortunately I don't think it will get the readership or participation it deserves. Welcome to the club, I guess

While the western governments must steer the opinion and feelings of the masses externally (most likely Iran). I am convinced that it will not fly this time. The people are tired and quite frankly bored with the wars of the Middle East.

I feel that this winter of 2009-2010 is going to be bitterly harsh. Cold and considerable depth on snowfall in areas that have had it light in past winters. There will be a noticeable death toll. In other words, something that "should not have happened" in the minds of the many.

Spring and summer of 2010 will warmer than the past year. Only furthering personal fears. I have said in other posts that I have long felt that an internal war is coming, perhaps as early as fall 2010 but definitely by summer 2011 or spring 2012. I have felt this way since the mid 80's as it had came in a series of visions.

Here in the US, we have leveraged the majority of our common manufacturing to outside countries. We could not go economically isolationist right now if we wanted as not even Levi's jeans are made domestically anymore. While the US is mostly known for auto and appliance manufacturing, textiles were a considerable amount of our past. Now textiles are all but gone in the US.

As debt and credit have become limited, the heyday of carefree spending is over. Less jobs are needed, hence less consumerism as less can afford luxuries. A harsh circle that is only becoming apparent to the masses.

The thing to understanding the markets is that it is a closed loop system. Gains only come from others loses. With the Dow at 11,000 and most people not in the market there is only one obvious reason; the bailouts are the losses that others are making gains from. Your hard earned taxes, dumped into the rat hole to fool the population that things are improving in this "jobless recovery"

The original Ponzi scheme was to have investors purchase "foreign stamps" that rapidly increased in value. The reality was that old Ponzi just robbed Petter to pay Paul. When the money from "investors" had grown large enough he ended the game with all the cash in hand. Today we call that bailout and stimulus package...still just robbing Peter to pay Paul. And they will wonder why the people became violent.

reply to post by Ahabstar


I had to star your post :-) brilliant, thanks for your response.. I have to admit I ignore things like the DOW, it's the people on the street that have me concerned.. the levels of under employment are staggering, most of the people I know are living on reduced wages that means they get further and further into debt each day.. and they are scared.

It won't be any of the usual croud that sets the spark.. it'll be something silly and it'll be from normal every day folks who have been ground into the ground that will react.

For me we are stuck in this process which I see as following many other similar periods throughout history where under employment causes the greatest hardships for the people, which they react against.. the only good part I guess is that it has always effected change..

But Winter is the time when the people hit bottom really suffer.. not just with the cold, but the deprevations that winter brings normally.. winter is about survival, and then spring arrives with renewed vigor, except that will be directed at not going through another winter like this..

It does worry me that the Estalishment may lead us to war to deal with their own shortcomings.. apart from some miracle that will fix the world, those are the 2 choices I see external war, or internal conflict... and I really can not see anyone wanting to go through another hard/cold winter without some hope to help see them through.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Here in the States, underemployment is roughly 20% or 1 in 5. While it sounds like 4/5 are gainfully employed, it is best to bear in mind that it is a national average. Unemployment and underemployment isn't an equal distribution. It is pockets of higher numbers in different areas and cities like Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland and Toledo Ohio.

Places where desperation in groups can foster protest and ideas of abandonment. It makes for bitter and uncaring people looking for a spark. And the nature of humanity is to folow more than it is to lead. To destroy rather than build proper foundations for growth.

Not a pretty prospect.

reply to post by Zosynspiracy

I just heard a few days ago, the reason the Asian countries are doing so well, is that thier stimulous packages went directly to the people, not big corporations. Not sure if thats true or not
Rossa

Nice thread!

This is certainly a topic that warrants discussion. As a professional accustomed to a six figure income, I spent the last 18 months grossly under-employed - making roughly a third of what my family was used to. Today, I find myself unemployed with nary a prospect for gainful employment in sight. I am trying desperately to remain optimistic and leverage my skills as an independent contractor in the hope that it will pay the bills in the short-term and lead to more gainful employment in the future. With the holidays looming, I am becoming increasingly despondent that everything I have worked for is disintegrating before my eyes. What am I to do?

First, let's examine the DOW phenomenon. The reason that the DOW is over-perfomring is because all of that TARP money has found its way into the market. The banks are investing as opposed to lending and the Fed is doing its part to keep the value artificially propped up. This has 2 facets that need to be recognized for what they are. The first is that the DOW has become a temporary safe haven for banks to make a higher return on their dollars. Consider that the interest rate is effectively zero and lending rates are also sickenly low, the banks have Fed money, interest free, to gamble with in what they believe are lower risk-pools than lending. The slightest inclination that there is going to be a market run will see devastating sell-offs of the bank's holdings, resulting in a self-fulfilling prophesy. The second facet is the current holding of 401(k) money in the market as individuals remain hopeful that they can gain back their losses. Once the banks pull the plug, losses will be exacerbated by individuals fleeing in droves. Plunge Protection be damned, there will be little that can be done to stop the drop once it starts.

Let's look at the under-employment phenomon. I agree with everything contributed to this point. I see it everyday in my own neighborhood, in my city and in the voices of the people I speak with over the phone. Right now we are in a "Scared" mode. People are scared about what is happening but their fear has them paralyzed. They aren't sure what to do. Awareness of the problem is increasing but we have not reached the point of despair - YET. Until the majority of us exhaust our remaining credit, our savings etc... we will remain at this staus quo. The majority of us are still holding onto the notion that things will get better - soon. The reality is that we are in denial. Things are NOT going to improve any time soon. In fact, it is even more likely that things will get considerably worse before they even level off at terrible. THAT will likely create the powder keg that we all fear.

It will begin in the urban centers amongst the poorest. Benefits will dry up and the decreased tax revenues will force the government to cut back on providing extensions. Those who are employed by the government, be it local, state or federal, are likely face furloughs and lay-offs (We are already seeing that where I live) which will only exacerbate the problem of decreased consumer demand thus forcing additional cutbacks in other private sectors. As a result, crime will increase leading to instability in the urban centers. Cities faced with less revenue will likely not have the protective services to quell the violence leading to even more rage amongst the populace. This is a slippery slope that will result in our urban centers becoming a powder keg. Any spark will cause them to blow. I agree with the notion that we are about 12 to 18 months away from hitting the bottom.

These are certainly the worst of times. I fear not only for our country, but for mankind in general. The great war is at our door yet our enemies have not yet been selected and the dividing lines not yet drawn. The next year will prove to be an interesting time in human history. Pay attention and be prepared - your survival may depend on it.

Under normal circumstances I would agree. But the variable you left out is inflation. Saving is only positive if the value of the dollar is sustained.

I think the MSM and GOV have created a new sport for people to watch. It's called economics. The only problem is that it actually effects people, but the people are clueless, and for the super rich, it's all still a game.



[edit on 1-12-2009 by factbeforefiction]

reply to post by kozmo


Cool, thanks for the input... I did the unemployment during the last recession when my bank recalled my loan for no other reason than they were closing my branch, that put me out of business and out of my home... I know where you are coming from and I hope you find your niche soon :-) good luck with that :-)

I ended up a migrant worker at the time working in Germany, as many Brits did at the time, out of desperation.. as bad as that was, there was hope, and like many other I got myself on my feet again, there was hope.. and jobs to return to. but it was not as bad as the grinding and soul destroying motion day to day living has become for everyone at the moment for the over worked and the under employed.

I see everyone I know, in business and personal life either being laid off, having their hours cut, receiving a pay cut or ending up with multiple workloads on top of their own.. and we the people accept this travesty.

prices keep increasing in all the necessities. when oil was $140 a barrel I paid £1.09 per liter, now all is what $70 a barrel I pay £1.12 a liter and in our hearts we all know we are being ripped off, conned and stolen from, but we are not quite at the level of real despair to act en masse.. not yet anyway.

I honestly think this is impacting all nations, and all people round the world.. while I think the inner cities are one area the spark will ignite, rural areas are also as badly affected and just as likely to explode, which was why I brought up the swing riots in my part of England..

I live in a pretty rural coastal part of England, and I am sure you must have heard of Guy Fawkes, well the part of England I live in that single night celebrated elsewhere lasts 10 weeks.. we burn effigies of the enemies of the bonfire (aka the people) this year there was one theme, the greedy pig virus.. the season started with the burning of this 40ft effigy..

and this is the piggy from Lewes bonfire with a fat cat sitting ontop

This single theme is rather scary really, psychological the anger is there, it knows the face of the enemy, while it sits just below the surface, it also sits beside the fear, the fear of losing everything, so we cling to hope that things will improve, and that will get people through this winter, hope that there might be hope, is a pretty sad state to be in.

But when next spring comes I am sure here as well as elsewhere people will not want to face another winter like it, the fear the media and government have added with the likes of swine flu and Iran is quite appalling, we appear to be wrapped up in cocoons of fear, but I feel that spring will see us move on to the next part of the cycle.

I do despair, as I really feel my government and all the governments of the Western world can protect their populations from the worst of this, yet the middle man in this whole process, the corporate and banking world want all to cash and all the power.. but what they forget is that we see them.. and know them for what they are..

It seems to me that we are currently stuck on 2 paths, one leads to internal conflict and one leads to world conflict, and the sad part, is that if it wasn't for the greedy pig virus we need not be here facing these 2 stark choices.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


Sadly it is only the legal citizens(of the US, I don't know about the UK) that are under employed and are losin jobs in droves...because I still see all the illegals out there working and buying a fat lcd hdtvs and riding in their escalades...this is disgusting!!!! And pulling fat waads of cash out of thier pockets!

[edit on 1-12-2009 by ldyserenity]

reply to post by factbeforefiction


I'm not so sure, looking at it from a UK perspective, we need low interest rates to ensure low mortgage/rents rates, this buys more time.. the increase in the mortgage rates will with one swoop eradicate hope and launch everyone on the process of rebelling..

I brought up the swing riots in my part of the country because the whole issue surrounded under employment.. each week people got further and further into debt.. at the end of which after a bad winter the people snapped and rioted.

In my district the landed gentry lowered the rent which balanced out a large portion of the effect under employment brought to the communities and allowed people some hope.. but else where in my county, where rents were maintained at the existing level, people continued to drown and thus reacted with ever increasing riots..

All inflation will do is ensure the people will crack under the pressures of debt servitude and under employment, those in over burdened employment will crack, and those unemployed will crack.. In the last recession my mortgage rate went up to 18%, which tripled my payments which would have taken my whole paycheck to repay..

Everyone I know is terrified that will happen again.. Every business I know is terrified that will happen again..

reply to post by ldyserenity


I can appreciate where you are coming from.. but really, if we are heading on this path I beleive we are then I really think the illegals issue will balance itself out.

The positive I cling to is that if we do end up in an internal conflict over the problems we all face, history at least shows us that the outcome has been to change our societies for the better..

reply to post by ldyserenity


This is what the elite want us to do --- blame others on our level. In pre-WWII Germany it was bame the jews, blame the fringes in society. So now they want us to blame the 'illegals'. Your characterization is in reality a charicature.

The last thing 'they' want is for us to focus our attention on them: the real cause of our crisis. 'They' fed us a load of crap about the wars and why we needed to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into those efforts. For what?

'They' told us that the housing collpase was because a bunch of people 'got mortgages they knew they couldn't afford'. Who qualified those people for those mortgages? Who made massively leveraged bets on wallstreet based on them? Who cooked-up all manner of new investment vehicles to further leverage the mortgage market?

'They' decided to pour hundreds of billions of our tax dollars into businesses that were 'too big to fail' in order to protect us and help save the economy. Yea right. How's that working out for you?

'They' have managed to loot this country from corner-to-corner and concentrate wealth into 'their' hands at an unprecedented rate. We are poorer and 'they' are richer than at any point in our history. They lie to us and steal from us with impunity.

Keep this in mind: when the balloon finally DOES go up... it's the politicians and lawyers first.


And apparently the elite know that it's in the wind:

Gold Man Sacks

Thanks Arnomannn


[edit on 1-12-2009 by jtma508]

reply to post by jtma508


I have to agree with you, Iran, Swine flu and all the other small and large issues seem to have made for media written on them, and are all a distraction from how bad the situation really is..

I mentioned in my other post that in this part of the world have a long bonfire tradition of buring effigies of enemies of the people.. Suprisingly Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't get a look in... all the effigies are of the greedy pig virus that's run amok within the elite and the establishment..

The concentration shift of wealth in all Western nations is quite staggering really... I am not even sure the barbarian hordes could have looted, pilaged and stolen this much wealth.

Originally posted by jtma508
reply to post by ldyserenity

 

This is what the elite want us to do --- blame others on our level. In pre-WWII Germany it was bame the jews, blame the fringes in society. So now they want us to blame the 'illegals'. Your characterization is in reality a charicature.

The last thing 'they' want is for us to focus our attention on them: the real cause of our crisis. 'They' fed us a load of crap about the wars and why we needed to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into those efforts. For what?

'They' told us that the housing collpase was because a bunch of people 'got mortgages they knew they couldn't afford'. Who qualified those people for those mortgages? Who made massively leveraged bets on wallstreet based on them? Who cooked-up all manner of new investment vehicles to further leverage the mortgage market?

'They' decided to pour hundreds of billions of our tax dollars into businesses that were 'too big to fail' in order to protect us and help save the economy. Yea right. How's that working out for you?

'They' have managed to loot this country from corner-to-corner and concentrate wealth into 'their' hands at an unprecedented rate. We are poorer and 'they' are richer than at any point in our history. They lie to us and steal from us with impunity.

Keep this in mind: when the balloon finally DOES go up... it's the politicians and lawyers first.


And apparently the elite know that it's in the wind:

Gold Man Sacks

Thanks Arnomannn


[edit on 1-12-2009 by jtma508]

We need to close our borders....I'm just saying we cannot support those already here, it doesn't help!

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
The east Asian countries seem to be doing MUCH MUCH better than the west. Why? I don't know.

It's not rocket science: The answer is simply that they actually producde things, save, invest, and think in a longer-term manner. The Western nations have become all about shuffling ppaper and debt around rather than doing productive and meanigful work.

That's how the US eclipsed the UK in the 20th centruy for example: The former became debt-riddled and over-finacialized; the latter was the world's greatist creditor nation and industrial powerhouse:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0f5a4320f7be.jpg[/atsimg]

Now the US is ungergoing the same hollowing-out and the European socialist system, which pasted-over their earlier hollowing out much better, is cracking under various strains.

To be fair, I think the "glories of Asia" are overestimated. China's numbers are, frankly, pretty unreliable. There are still hundreds of millions in India and China living in near-medieval-conditions despite the coastal wealth and growing middle class. These countries are having major reource issues that will only intenisfy in in years to come, too. Japan is also hollowing out even harder and faster than the Western Nations: its alreadly-sickly GNP has fallern harder and faster than that of any other G-7 nation and indeed of any nation since the great depression.