David Sharlet Finds Connection between The Family and Uganda's AntiGay Laws/Possible Gay Genocide

Originally posted by piddles
that's not an insult

anyone who thinks genocide of anyone is okay is an idiot, to say the least.

I don't think anyone is talking genocide here. If they make X whatever X is, a law, and you break X you deserve to be punished according to the Law. It's that simple to me.

Now the info we have does mention the possibility of death, but I don't think its really that clear yet how they intend to use death. I think they just threw it in there as a scare tactic but will consider it for serious offenses of this law.. at least that's what I would like to believe.

Originally posted by buds84
ATS Mods are trash and ban non-American posts.

You said, and I'm paraphrasing, a (certain) group of people should be killed and it should be encouraged. Now we're (actually me in this case) trash and banning non-American posts. Not sure where the "non-American" part came from, but nonetheless, this is a privately owned site and that's not allowed. As has been said ad nauseum, if you want to discuss something in that kind of manner, go somewhere else.

Peace

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


I disagree. What about outward heterosexuality? should that be illegal too? if I see a couple holding hands, they're going to arrested or at least fined?

you can't put religion with politics because religions have their own biases. How can all men be created equal if that is the case?

you think raping another man should be punishable by death? what about those who rape women? It shouldn't be about gender or sexual preference, violating someone's rights and personal space is exactly just that.

also, god given morals? you mean people didn't come up with the idea to good to each other on their own? GOD had to tell them?




also to your second post, a genocide doesn't have to happen overnight. They want to also punish the people who support gay rights. So you could be not gay, and still be killed. Sound familiar/zieg heil?

edit: also,

If they make X whatever X is, a law, and you break X you deserve to be punished according to the Law. It's that simple to me.

that comes from the stance that the law and the people who make them are perfect, which if we all felt like that, this wouldn't be a website and there wouldn't be political issues



[edit on 30-11-2009 by piddles]

reply to post by Dr Love


Ok well I was simply stating/translating what the Bible says,

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

and then in my own works stated what the Bible says should be encouraged.

Next time I'll remember not to quote any law from the Bible because America likes to base their society on the holy Bible, just not the laws in it.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Just to clarify, according to this logic you agree with Muslim countries-under Sharia law-executing Christian missionaries, after all it is against the law to convert anyone from Islam punishable by death for both converted and missionary.

Mod Edit: Let's keep the discussion on-topic please.

Peace

[edit on 30-11-2009 by Dr Love]

Originally posted by buds84
reply to post by Dr Love

 

Ok well I was simply stating/translating what the Bible says,

Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

and then in my own works stated what the Bible says should be encouraged.

Next time I'll remember not to quote any law from the Bible because America likes to base their society on the holy Bible, just not the laws in it.

The US is NOT based off the bible. Right wingers like to claim that to justify their cherry pickings of morality. Take a look at this. The founding fathers were disgusted by religions, at best they were agnostic deists. They were certainly anti-christian with various quotes abounding. Do a quick google for "Atheist founding fathers" or "quotes of the founding fathers."

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by piddles
that's not an insult

anyone who thinks genocide of anyone is okay is an idiot, to say the least.

I don't think anyone is talking genocide here. If they make X whatever X is, a law, and you break X you deserve to be punished according to the Law. It's that simple to me.

Now the info we have does mention the possibility of death, but I don't think its really that clear yet how they intend to use death. I think they just threw it in there as a scare tactic but will consider it for serious offenses of this law.. at least that's what I would like to believe.

I am simply astounded by the complete level of arrogance and ignorance coming from some of the replies on this thread.

You're basically saying, "It's okay to threaten to kill, imprison, or otherwise punish a group of people for being what they are."

Well, death may be extreme, but if they punish these offenders who break the law in Uganda then I applaud them happily. It's about time somebody had the good since to make blatant homosexuality a crime.

The very notion of applauding a law simply because it is a law is completely ridiculous. Responses like the above are truly scary, because it shows just how willingly a human would be willing to sacrifice a portion of their brothers and sisters simply because their ruling entity (whether it be secular or religious or both) tell them to do so.

Do you not realize that your very train of thought is how genocide and terror are born? How do you think it started in Germany against the Jews? The Christian government spread lies and deceit about the Jewish people and caused their neighbors to turn on them. After they were all confined to prisons or ghettos, the slaughter began.

Really, the comments about this Draconian and completely monstrous and bloody law going into effect are horrible. I'm guessing you didn't even read the article - it said not only gays but anyone who defends or speaks for them - can face jail or death.

I really, really, really would like you to move to Uganda so you can experience first hand just how amazingly Christ-like the country is. Oh, and don't be too angry when you get accused of homosexuality; it's probably just someone trying to get their hands on your stuff. You see, that's how laws like this usually play out - a witch hunt.

reply to post by lordtyp0


So why does the President swear on the Bible when elected and why do they make you put your hand on the Bible when testifying in court?

I know the forefathers didn't give a crap about the Bible, the Masons were people trying to escape from places where people up held the laws in the Bible, probably because they are gay.

They just use it these days as a front to pretend they are doing good.

Originally posted by piddles
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

I disagree. What about outward heterosexuality? should that be illegal too? if I see a couple holding hands, they're going to arrested or at least fined?

Hey it's Uganda's Laws.. apparently they want this.

But If I lived in a country that made outward heterosexuality a crime. I would have to abide by that law or accept the punishment if I broke it.

you can't put religion with politics because religions have their own biases. How can all men be created equal if that is the case?

You Can and our forefathers (USA) did just that. They believed in God given morals so strongly for this country that they said our system of government would fall apart without it. ( there is a quote to that effect but I cannot find it just now)

you think raping another man should be punishable by death? what about those who rape women? It shouldn't be about gender or sexual preference, violating someone's rights and personal space is exactly just that.

Of course not. I was only trying to make a case for what they may consider an extreme example. Perhaps for example, this person was a multiple offender. If the law then says death to him, then yes, I am for that.

also, god given morals? you mean people didn't come up with the idea to good to each other on their own? GOD had to tell them?

Yep that's right. You see the rightness of Man means nothing. If people think that God gave them certain morals and values, they are more likely to follow those God given laws.

also to your second post, a genocide doesn't have to happen overnight. They want to also punish the people who support gay rights. So you could be not gay, and still be killed. Sound familiar/zieg heil?

I do not believe they will take death to this extreme.

If they make X whatever X is, a law, and you break X you deserve to be punished according to the Law. It's that simple to me.

that comes from the stance that the law and the people who make them are perfect, which if we all felt like that, this wouldn't be a website and there wouldn't be political issue.

I am totally not understanding your point here. Whatever the law is in any country the people should obey those laws. If they disagree with the laws, as in this country, they can work to have the laws changed. It is really that simple.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


-they want to have unfair persecution? highly unlikely. "they" are what's being controlled by The Family (remember what this thread was about?)


-if you lived in a country that outlawed heterosexuality, you actually would follow the law? BS. Do you also let anybody in the world tell you what to do? (rhetorical, to make a point)

-and who are you to say the rightness of man means nothing? All the good things I do mean nothing because I don't do them with "god" in my heart? What the hell kind of judgement is that.


-I also want to think they won't go to this extreme, but that country already has so many other problems, I wouldn't be surprised if it became an unwritten part of the law.

-My point is the laws that we are supposed to abide by are not necessarily always there to protect us. What about segregation? Racist people MADE that a law. The fact that anyone followed it or anyone was punished for breaking it is just plain wrong.

reply to post by Avenginggecko


You say, "The very notion of applauding a law simply because it is a law is completely ridiculous."

I do not applaud it because it is a law. I applaud it because I believe Homosexuality should be a crime. I did not say I agree with death for them just because they are gay.

Yes, punish them for being who they are because being gay is immoral. Just as you punish rapists. Oh and last time I looked sodomy was still illegal in the USA. Did you know that?

I don't advocate killing anyone but hard core law breakers I that is in fact ho the law reads.

These people are misguided in my opinion an need counseling. I do not believe being gay is a natural normal state of being.

What is next? Rapist and thieves saying they cant help it, they were born this way so we all must just let them be themselves?

What about sex with animals? If a person really believes he is born to have sex with animal are we just going to accept that? What if it was thousands or millions of people that would pop up tomorrow and say, they all are animal lovers who want to have sex with animals and you mus grant them their right because they feel they we5re born that way?

You would say But that not natural! Well I don't believe homosexuality is natural and we should cater to them.

EDIT: Listen.. I would tone the law down myself because I do not agree with all of it as I understand it. I would use more common sense. they may be extreme on some of the things they want to do.. I would do it differently. But if they make this Law then people have no choice but to follow it or get it changed.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by buds84
reply to post by lordtyp0

 

So why does the President swear on the Bible when elected and why do they make you put your hand on the Bible when testifying in court?

I know the forefathers didn't give a crap about the Bible, the Masons were people trying to escape from places where people up held the laws in the Bible, probably because they are gay.

They just use it these days as a front to pretend they are doing good.

Well I would first be inclined to say tradition, Obama for example used the same bible lincoln did. Otherwise-holy crap I agree: They also do it to pretend they are doing good.

Though: There is nothing requiring a bible be used. I think that it was really a hold over from Colonial rule. Never bothered to look into it though. Again: Has nothing to do with what the country was founded on.

The first amendment protects religions from government tampering, but more important it is to protect the government from religious tampering. There will be some infiltration anyway as religious people inevitably take office and try pushing through what they claim is right. Said amendment though was the first effort to halt any future crackdowns on a select group. Not to favor them.

This is a very similar plight for all minorities. The government (which is Secular) has the responsibility to watch for the interests of all those in case. All the citizens. Because of intermixing of religions and people trying to make it more of a plutocracy it has certainly failed at many points, but eventually such additions are tossed out and things are put back on track.. Or hopefully as the case may be.

The problem of religious rule can best be seen in Sharia. Many people in the US would like to see a Christian version take root and are actively working to revise history to give them validity. The "Right to Rule via appointment of God" is the most dangerous sort of rule. It breeds fanatics and always turns bloody-after all, the actions of rulers are blessed by the divine. I think Aristotle said it best:

"A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side."
- Aristotle, Politics.

In the case of Uganda, being Gay is already illegal. This law can only be seen as an attempt to murder a portion of the population based on a connecting factor, ie: the building blocks of a genocide.

Personally I don't care what religion anyone follows, as long as it does not interfere with the law. I do not care what beliefs the tenents of their faith dictate-so long as it doesn't harm anyone. "If you do not believe in freedoms for those you hate, you do not believe in freedom at all"-I forgot who coined that phrase. If anyone knows please let me know.

Jesus himself said to "Give unto ceaser that which is ceaser's, give unto the father that which is his.".. Sure sounds like a call of separation to me. Specially when you put in the whole praying in private part.

This law must be fought, the reason is simple: The most heinous and evil acts are always done in the name of good. (another quote that I don't recall the author of.).

This law is sponsored by some of the worst scum in politics. Presumably for personal gain or some sort of sick thrill. Whats worse is they are so much of cowards they are not even attempting it at home, they are pretty much buying it in another country.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by Avenginggecko

 

You say, "The very notion of applauding a law simply because it is a law is completely ridiculous."

I do not applaud it because it is a law. I applaud it because I believe Homosexuality should be a crime. I did not say I agree with death for them just because they are gay.

Yes, punish them for being who they are because being gay is immoral. Just as you punish rapists. Oh and last time I looked sodomy was still illegal in the USA. Did you know that?

I don't advocate killing anyone but hard core law breakers I that is in fact ho the law reads.

These people are misguided in my opinion an need counseling. I do not believe being gay is a natural normal state of being.

What is next? Rapist and thieves saying they cant help it, they were born this way so we all must just let them be themselves?

What about sex with animals? If a person really believes he is born to have sex with animal are we just going to accept that? What if it was thousands or millions of people that would pop up tomorrow and say, they all are animal lovers who want to have sex with animals and you mus grant them their right because they feel they we5re born that way?

You would say But that not natural! Well I don't believe homosexuality is natural and we should cater to them.

EDIT: Listen.. I would tone the law down myself because I do not agree with all of it as I understand it. I would use more common sense. they may be extreme on some of the things they want to do.. I would do it differently. But if they make this Law then people have no choice but to follow it or get it changed.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

I don't recall anyone even suggesting this as a 'catering job'. This is a simple right and wrong scenario. You are obviously religious, presumably Christian, so I will ask you to take your statements and compare them with the beliefs you seem to express.

a) Jesus 'catered' to the sinners and forbate anyone from doing any sort of biblical judgment (Mary Magdelene?).

b) Jesus never mentioned anything about Gays or any associated acts.

c) Deuteronomy and Leviticus were not commandments for the populous. They were there for the Rabbis to dictate 'cleanliness' for participation in temple rituals. If they were 'unclean' they would undergo a cleansing ritual and presto: clean again. Later the word was changed to mean 'abomination' instead of 'ritually unclean'. If you read them-everyone on earth is an Abomination-from married couples who share furniture to those who cut their hair. All-Abominations.

d) If you actually believe God cares, then nothing can happen without the blessing of God.

This thread is about the unjustness of this law. You flippantly say "obey or fight it". Did you not notice that this is about fighting it?

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by Avenginggecko

 

You say, "The very notion of applauding a law simply because it is a law is completely ridiculous."

I do not applaud it because it is a law. I applaud it because I believe Homosexuality should be a crime. I did not say I agree with death for them just because they are gay.

Yes, punish them for being who they are because being gay is immoral. Just as you punish rapists. Oh and last time I looked sodomy was still illegal in the USA. Did you know that?

A rapist is not the same as a homosexual, and shame on you for drawing such a clearly bigoted parallel. A rape is committed by someone who wants to damage and control an individual for personal gain and pleasure. A homosexual is a person that has an attraction to peers of the sex. They are two completely different things. Comparing a violent, forced act of transgression to attraction is completely ignorant.

I don't advocate killing anyone but hard core law breakers I that is in fact ho the law reads.

These people are misguided in my opinion an need counseling. I do not believe being gay is a natural normal state of being.

Obviously you aren't a biologist or even remotely educated on the topic because homosexuality is everywhere in nature.

What is next? Rapist and thieves saying they cant help it, they were born this way so we all must just let them be themselves?

What about sex with animals? If a person really believes he is born to have sex with animal are we just going to accept that? What if it was thousands or millions of people that would pop up tomorrow and say, they all are animal lovers who want to have sex with animals and you mus grant them their right because they feel they we5re born that way?

Red herring, red herring, red herring. None of the examples you gave have anything to do with attraction to peers of the same sex and don't fall anywhere near the category of homosexuality. They are all acts that unwillingly violate one of the involved. Using your logic, slavery (that the Bible condones) should never have been made illegal because then we might outlaw churches. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

You would say But that not natural! Well I don't believe homosexuality is natural and we should cater to them.

No one wants you to cater to them. They do, however, want you to leave them alone and stop trying to force your fascist theocratic police state on private citizens.

Originally posted by lordtyp0
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Just to clarify, according to this logic you agree with Muslim countries-under Sharia law-executing Christian missionaries, after all it is against the law to convert anyone from Islam punishable by death for both converted and missionary.

No I don't agree with that at all. I am not using a double standard. As I have said, the death thing is extreme. Punished for breaking the law yes, and death only if an extreme situation calls for it according to the law.. I believe jailing someone for life is a silly waste of money and resources. It's Uganda's laws. I know it was helped along by the Family and some so called evangelists who may be extremest. Like I said, I would do things differently concerning this law.

I would make it more like the sodomy laws in the USA but I would like to see them actually enforced. To me a gay bar is just as bad as a terrorist cell according to the law. its still a gathering of people who willfully break the law. We go after the terrorists cells but leave the gay bar alone?.. That is just silly.

The immorality that homosexuality brings in the fact that sodomy (an illegal act) is part of that culture is just as harmful as the influence terrorist have over their brainwashed followers.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by Avenginggecko


As I have said. My examples were to show I believe homosexuality is an un natural state just as any of my examples. You may disagree with that view if you like. To me the drives that attract a man to a man are the same drives that cause a man to go out and rape a woman. I believe my point was perfectly valid.

EDIT: Let me tell you something. i have a big problem with the sodomy issue. If gay people didn't sodomize then I would have less o a problem. But when a man "loves " a man in this way he is a law breaker plain and simple.

Until the laws are changed or the gays stop sodomizing each other- even willfully, then I have every right to feel the way I do.



[edit on 30-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by lordtyp0
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Just to clarify, according to this logic you agree with Muslim countries-under Sharia law-executing Christian missionaries, after all it is against the law to convert anyone from Islam punishable by death for both converted and missionary.

No I don't agree with that at all. I am not using a double standard. As I have said, the death thing is extreme. Punished for breaking the law yes, and death only if an extreme situation calls for it according to the law.. I believe jailing someone for life is a silly waste of money and resources. It's Uganda's laws. I know it was helped along by the Family and some so called evangelists who may be extremest. Like I said, I would do things differently concerning this law.

I would make it more like the sodomy laws in the USA but I would like to see them actually enforced. To me a gay bar is just as bad as a terrorist cell according to the law. its still a gathering of people who willfully break the law. We go after the terrorists cells but leave the gay bar alone?.. That is just silly.

The immorality that homosexuality brings in the fact that sodomy (an illegal act) is part of that culture is just as harmful as the influence terrorist have over their brainwashed followers.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

Uhm, I need to run off for a bit, but I was taken aback by this. A bunch of guys dancing around to bad techno music in their underwear is equal to or worse than people training and carrying out murders on mass scale?

Is this a Poes Law thing? I don't know whether to laugh hysterically ot sit in stunned silence..

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
To me the drives that attract a man to a man are the same drives that cause a man to go out and rape a woman.

wow

edit: I wish not to make any implications but that statement sounds like you would know firsthand.


[edit on 30-11-2009 by piddles]

reply to post by lordtyp0


It has to do with the effects of immortality on a society over time. I have never heard of Poes Law.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]