9/11 Physics: THE Death Blow to the Official Fairy Tale

reply to post by iSunTzu


the debris field was EIGHT MILES wide.
that is not the result of a 600 mile an hour impact, that is the result of breaking up in the air. it may have been a decoy that was blown up, too. it was not necessarily flight 93.

Originally posted by RipCurl

nice stretch with absolutely no evidence to support this opinion.




Tail tucked between his legs with head down running away!

Talk about putting him in place!





My heart breaks every time I see the fire fighters and police going into the towers. Also the Shroeder interview(miss spell?). You can feel everthing he went through and witnessed. The real deal and nothing but.

For Dean , XTC was one of my favorite bands, I saw them open with the Police in 1980 in Det. My two fav bands at the time. Nice Quote!


[edit on 5-12-2009 by PRS395]

I promise you all that one day, if i ever become a multi-billionaire, I will buy some land and the original blue prints of both WTC towers, WTC 7, two Boeing jets (Were they 757's? I can't remember)...

I will hire builders and everything and everyone needed to completely re-build the towers, and remotely fly both airliners into the towers as accurately as possible to where they impacted on the towers on 9/11, with the same amount of jet fuel, and stand back and see what happens.

I would bet whatever remaining money I had left that the fires inside the towers would smolder until they went out, and you would all see two perfectly upright Twin Towers, un-collapsed, with a great big hole in each building.

I would also set fire to the same floors that were ignited in WTC 7 and I would also bet my money and my life that they would eventually extinguish and there would be NO COLLAPSE.

It will be the greatest experiment ever conducted

iSunTzu, truth of 19 terrorists? Care to tell me how many of the original 19 have been proven to be elsewhere in the world still alive, never on said flights to begin with? Remember that the FBI released a list of names with photographs. When people see those photographs of themselves and come forward and say, hey, I wasn't on those planes, what then?

reply to post by diginess

Care to tell me how many of the original 19 have been proven to be elsewhere in the world still alive, never on said flights to begin with? Remember that the FBI released a list of names with photographs. When people see those photographs of themselves and come forward and say, hey, I wasn't on those planes, what then?

None. The 19 names and photos as listed by the FBI as being the 9/11 hijackers at the end of September 2001 are dead. Their home countries have verified their identities.

Originally posted by billybob
reply to post by RipCurl

 

ummmm. no.
the windows were blown out by a blast. the same blast that knocked the marble off.

You don't know jack about structural mechanics.

The towers were, in essence, a 1400' tall, 208' x 208' square, cantilever beam, with a fixed end at the ground.

Now, when hit with a local impulse like the plane collision, the highest local stresses are at the point of impact, of course.

Other than the local stresses at the impact site, guess where the highest bending stresses are in this (or any) fixed end cantilever.

Big hint: bury a yard stick in the ground. Pack the dirt really tight around the base. Then whack it really hard about 6" from the top. Notice exactly where the yardstick breaks. THAT is the point of highest stress.

Yup, at the point of fixed attachment.

In case you're a skeptic:
www.efunda.com...

If the damage had been due to the blast, it would have happened ONLY in a direct line in front of the elevator doors. This did not happen. (Although there WERE blasts of flames that did come out & burn people.)

Originally posted by billybob
and, there is no way in hell that the fireball of jet fuel destroyed anything that far down in the tower.

Wrong again. It happened on 9/11. It also happened in 1945 when a B25 flew into the side of the empire state building. That bomber had a couple hundred pounds of fuel on board. The fireball didn't travel nearly as far, because there wasn't nearly as much gas. But it did travel both up & down the elevator shafts.

The planes that flew into the WTC poured a thousand gallons or more down the shafts.

For comparison, a full sized fuel truck that refills gas stations contains 9,000 gallons.

Originally posted by billybob
and, fireball have NO SIGNIFICANT EXPLOSIVE PRESSURE, so even if somehow, magically, the fireball managed to burst down the entire length of the tower, it would do nothing more than BURN things. it would not crumple up a metal door, destroy a machine shop, knock off huge marble panels, or any of the other things you rebunkers (not a typo, lol) repeat endlessly.

Never heard of a fuel air explosive, have you?

Originally posted by billybob
no, it was the explosions in the B4 sublevels that did all that. i assume it was a core weakening explosive set to coincide with the airplane strike.

Ahhh, the "core weakening explosives" ... that left the core standing for about 50 floors, while the rest of the building crashed around it.

The "core weakening explosives" that did NOT weaken the cores.

The "core weakening explosives" that (unlike ALL explosives) left zero residue. Residue that, had it been there, would have alerted hundreds of trained rescue (and explosives sniffing) dogs.

Brilliant.


TomK

Originally posted by billybob
reply to post by iSunTzu

 

the debris field was EIGHT MILES wide.
that is not the result of a 600 mile an hour impact, that is the result of breaking up in the air. it may have been a decoy that was blown up, too. it was not necessarily flight 93.

Wrong.

Flight 1771
www.youtube.com...

Same result.

Was this one shot down too?

TomK

reply to post by thomk


The difference is, you are comparing papers that blew around for miles in the wind, to seats, pieces of fuselage, and briefcase-sized debris scattered for miles at Shanksville. And also an extremely heavy engine hundreds of feet from the crater, found in dense woods.

Originally posted by thomk
The planes that flew into the WTC poured a thousand gallons or more down the shafts.

And it doesn't matter if you pour 5 gallons out on your driveway and ignite it, or 5000 gallons, you will never get an explosive effect. Don't confuse Hollywood special effects with real life.

Which brings me to....

Originally posted by thomk
Never heard of a fuel air explosive, have you?

Yeah, we get a few people once in a great while that think they know what they're talking about and bring up FAE.

Keyword here is "explosive". FAE's are designed to be explosive:

The main destructive force of FAE is high overpressure

Source

In other words, the more aerosolized fuel you put into and FAE, the more pressure and the bigger the bang. But we're talking about aerosolized and pressurized fuel which we did not have at the WTC.

One can argue whether the fuel that poured down the elevator shafts aerosolized itself or not, but it most certainly wasn't pressurized.

Seriously, Tom. You can try these simple tasks at home and see for yourself how wrong you are. Get a 5 gallon can of kerosene, dump it out all over the ground and light it up. No explosion. Get a spray bottle and put kerosene in it and it will come out in an aerosolized form. Spray it at fire. Still no explosion. It's the pressure that causes FAE's to be explosive and there was no pressure at the WTC.

Further, with all your experiments at home, please show how kerosene can destroy the parking garage, cause a 300-pound steel and concrete fire door to be blown off it's hinges and wrinkled up and lying on the floor, blow elevator doors off even when almost all elevators went no where near the impact zone, destroyed the lobby breaking several-hundred-pound marble panels on the walls and shattering 2-3-inch-thick glass, destroyed a 50-ton hydraulic brake press in the machine shop in the basement levels.

You can do all the tests at home you like, you will never make kerosene explosive. Until you or anyone else can show how pouring kerosene down elevator shafts or anywhere else can magically make kerosene explosive, then you're just wasting our time and yours.




[edit on 7-12-2009 by _BoneZ_]

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Please explain why the multi gas meter under the seat in my fire truck
lists Jet fuel (aka kerosene) as explosive...

Measures O2, CO, H2S and flammable vapor levels

There are some 50 common substances in the device memory which
can be brought up. When the proper susbstance is selected will list
out concretration and sounds and alarm when the explosive concrentration
is reached.

If Jet fuel is not explosive why does the device list it as explosive?

IIRC jet fuel has a rather narrow explosive concentration, but under proper conditions can become explosive

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Was looking for this

Report from EXPLOSION DYNAMICS LABORATORY at Cal Tech


List conditions at which kerosene becomes explosive

www.galcit.caltech.edu...

reply to post by thedman


When you have something like what happened when the planes hit the buildings, that fireball, that is a deflagration, not technically a high explosive. A fuel-air explosive is a high explosive, but they are also very carefully engineered to produce a specific fuel-to-air ratio distribution of the fuel.

A kind of "explosion" like the fireballs that came out of the towers, would not actually do much damage, and the fireballs didn't. They didn't even knock out all the windows they came out around.

reply to post by thedman

Explosion limits are given in terms of a minimum autoignition temperature (AIT) for ignition of fuel injected into hot air.

"Injected into hot air." The air wasn't hot in the elevator shaft. Especially at the basement and lobby. Remember, heat and fire travel up, not down. You'd think firefighters would know this.

Did you even read the link you posted? The conditions weren't even close to being within the small range for causing kerosene to be explosive.

And to add the topping to the cake and finish this once and for all, I'll end with this:

We all know about the numerous witnesses that talked about the explosion down in the basement and lobby area as the plane impacted the tower. Debunkers claim that this was from the jet fuel, no matter how impossible. Well there was another explosion quite awhile afterwards that blew elevator doors open and had people running out on fire.

FDNY John Schroeder said he saw the plane impact from his station. Then however long it took for him to saddle up, travel to the WTC, get inside and get his orders from the command post in the lobby, then there was that second explosion in the lobby that blew the doors off the elevators and had people running out on fire, well after the plane had already impacted. He also mentions more explosions that bounced them around in the stairwells "like pinballs" which caused them to evacuate the building. Once they got down to the lobby to evacuate the building, the lobby was devastated from the explosions. Planes came and gone, but explosions continue and you would have us believe the continued explosions are from kerosene exploding over and over in the same area? Is that going to be your excuse here, thedman?

Denial disorder prevents you from putting all the puzzle pieces together and seeing the big picture that SOMETHING WAS NOT RIGHT ON 9/11. It does get tiring posting this same stuff over and over again and you just completely ignore it and make things up right out of thin air to explain it away.

You post a link that shows how kerosene becomes explosive, but then you didn't read the link to see that the conditions at the WTC for kerosene to become explosive haven't been met. Not to mention the first responders reporting these explosions in the lower levels WELL AFTER THE PLANES HAVE ALREADY HIT. You CANNOT explain away the continued explosions from kerosene.

Continuous explosions in the lower levels after the planes had already impacted almost a quarter mile up, flashes going up, down and around both towers in the lower to middle levels as the buildings were collapsing above, puffs of dust/debris going down each tower in almost even sequences. All the above is completely consistent with controlled demolitions and nowhere to be found in any fire-induced collapse, period.

Here's FDNY John Schroeder's interview, again, in case you care to hear what a fellow firefighter has to say:

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

Here is another interesting anomaly in the Pentagon attack: the entire aircraft allegedly vaporized from the intense heat; yet the photos clearly show office furniture, intact and barely damaged, in the rooms adjacent to the hole where their walls were ripped off by the incoming object. Apparently the heat was concentrated and focused on the aircraft and/or the pentagon only purchases office furniture that is impervious to intense heat.

Another point already made in another reply is that the investigative committee was only empowered to investigate the events LEADING UP TO 9/11, not the actual activities of that day. To get the details of the day, I suggest reading "Crossing the Rubicon" by Michael Ruppert. He includes details that all the news media missed.

R-von

reply to post by impressme


Im cherry picking to responses and I know its off-topic of the physics part, but impressme.....you are using 9-11 commission reports (which I am guessing you find as part of the cover up...excuse the assumption if needed) to state that there is a cover up.

Sort of circular logic. I don't hold all in the report as truth and I am one to believe that 10:06am was the crash time. Seismic reports indicate such a happening in that area which most probably are linked to the plane smashing into the ground.

Seismic Activity - Shanksville Area

Page 3 and also figure 5. Using the link you provided and their link provided for the transcript, you can see that all radar contact (primary/secondary) were lost at 10:06. The plane went down.

My only question in that manner would be why was 10:03 the last FDR message and what happened for the next 3 minutes.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Nice try Did you bother the read the post?

States that explosion can be initiated WITHOUT external source if injected
into hot atmosphere

Problem was there were plenty of ignition sources around.

Also explain why there were numerous people suffering from burns in the
lobby of WTC 1. That is burns and burns only. No blast injuries, no
shrapnel wounds like expect in bomb blast.

Explain multiple CREDBLE witnesses (sorry for Schoeder but he has some
problems and keeps changing story) reporting elevator doors blown off,
flames shooting out of elevators and people burned in lobby

Port Authority Capt Anthony Whitaker

The Port Authority's on-site commanding police officer [Captain (now Deputy Chief) Anthony Whitaker] was standing in the concourse when a fireball erupted out of elevator shafts and exploded onto the mall concourse, causing him to dive for cover.
www.9-11commission.gov...

"At the time of the attacks, Chief Whitaker was the police captain responsible for all Port Authority officers assigned to the World Trade Center. He played a major role in directing the evacuation of the complex after the attacks. He also narrowly escaped death by dodging a fireball of jet fuel that exploded from an elevator shaft." www.panynj.gov...

"Whitaker saw a fireball burst through the front doors of the north tower. It chased some people, engulfed others."
www.google.com...

[Whitaker] "When Flight 11 hit, he had been standing in front of a Banana Republic store in the enclosed shopping mall and concourse beneath the two towers, a spot he occupied four mornings a week and where thousands of people exiting the subways could see him. Whitaker had been stunned by a fireball that ran down an elevator shaft in the north tower." 102 Minutes: The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers, Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn, 2006. MacMillan, New York. p. 78

Firefighter William Green: We entered in through the front doors of the lobby. The lobby was screwed. All the windows were already broken. Marble walls that surrounded the elevator shaft, they were cracked and broken. I’m still thinking a bomb went off.

Tom Canavan: All the elevator doors were knocked off. They were almost crooked.

Firefighter John Morabito of ladder 10, which is just 200 yards from the north tower.
“Just inside the front entrance, Morabito found two victims of the fireball. A man, already dead, was pushed against a wall, his clothes gone, his eyeglasses blackened, his tongue lying on the floor next to him. The other was a woman, with no clothes, her hair burned off, her eyes sealed.

“The woman, she sat up. I’m yelling to her, ‘Don’t worry, we’re going to help you,’” Morabito said. “She sat up and was trying to talk, but her throat had closed up. She died right there.”

www.fdnytenhouse.com...

Ronnie Clifford and Jennianne Maffeo
At around 8.45am, Ronnie walked into the lobby of the Marriott, which was connected to the lobby of the north tower by a revolving door. As he was checking his yellow tie in a mirror, he felt a massive explosion, followed several seconds later by a reverberation, a warping effect that he describes as the "harmonic tolerance of a building that's shaking like a tuning fork". He peered through the revolving door into the lobby of the north tower. It was filling with haze. People were scurrying to escape what had become a "hurricane of flying debris".

Then the revolving door turned with a suctioning sound followed by a hot burst of wind, and in came a mannequin of the future. A woman, naked, dazed, her arms outstretched. She was so badly burned that Ronnie had no idea what race she was or how old she might be. She clawed the air with fingernails turned porcelain-white. The zipper of what had once been a sweater had melted into her chest, as if it were the zipper to her own body. Her hair had been singed to a crisp steel wool. With her, in the gust of the door, came a pungent odour, the smell of kerosene or paraffin, Ronnie thought.

Brian Reeves, a 34-year-old security guard, was nearly killed while making the rounds in the lobby of 1 World Trade Center on September 11. He started to run after hearing an explosion that he said sounded like a missile, but he was knocked down by a fireball that roared down the elevator shaft.

Reeves suffered third-degree burns to 40 percent of his body before he was able to pat out the flames. He was one of 20 critically-injured patients rushed to New York Presbyterian’s burn unit that day. www.ny1.com...

There are more accounts here...

911stories.googlepages.com...:witnessaccounts,lobb


Doubt you will do it as would puncture your little fantasy....

reply to post by vBreezo

Here is another interesting anomaly in the Pentagon attack: the entire aircraft allegedly vaporized from the intense heat; yet the photos clearly show office furniture, intact and barely damaged, in the rooms adjacent to the hole where their walls were ripped off by the incoming object. Apparently the heat was concentrated and focused on the aircraft and/or the pentagon only purchases office furniture that is impervious to intense heat.

Sorry to burst your conspiracy fantasy...

Ever hear of MOMENTUM? Plane was traveling at 500mph when hit

Debris including fuel load would have been projected forward into the
building. Fires were most intense in interior of building where most the
fuel burned.

Also Aircraft rescue truck from Reagan Airport was on scene and used
water cannon to suppress fires near the impact hole.

Pictures of impact hole

911review.org...

Originally posted by thedman
Also explain why there were numerous people suffering from burns in the
lobby of WTC 1. That is burns and burns only. No blast injuries, no
shrapnel wounds like expect in bomb blast.

Wrong. There were people badly cut by glass when the lobby blown out for one thing. So you obviously are just making this up simply because YOU personally are ignorant of any other injuries. Evidence?

Explain multiple CREDBLE witnesses (sorry for Schoeder but he has some
problems and keeps changing story) reporting elevator doors blown off,
flames shooting out of elevators and people burned in lobby

Police officer William Walsh provided the same testimony, that lower-level elevators were blown out of their hinges when he arrived at the lobby of WTC1. This was released with a collection of first responder testimonies by the New York Times. I gave you the name and the source, now look it up.


You want to know why your theory of a fireball coming down the elevator shafts is total bull? Because if that explosive fireball could travel over 1000 feet to blow out the lobby, and then into the basements to destroy a 300-lb door, it would have destroyed the elevator shaft walls themselves before even getting that far (the shaft walls were drywall) and deflagrated. Not to mention you are asking for an extremely unlikely set of conditions be present for your explosive fireball to even be ignited in the first place.


A much more likely alternative is that the explosions CAME from the basement levels. That's why they only blew out elevators servicing the lower floors (according to NYPD William Walsh), that's why so many people reported hearing/seeing explosions in the basement levels, and that's what erupted up into the lobby of WTC1. That's also why white smoke filled the basement floors according to another witness, engineer Mike Pecoraro. That's also why the FBI originally reported that explosives/bombs had been detonated underground to coincide with the plane impacts. That's also why the plane impact times are off by several seconds with the seismic events commonly attributed to the plane impacts, which were over 1000 feet up in the air and had all the building below to serve as a damper to any seismic waves that would have been produced.

In short it just makes way too much freaking sense that there were actually bombs in the basement, too many things that line up and suddenly make sense that are just unexplainable by asserting it was "confusion" of witnesses (including police and firefighters). And it makes NO sense that an explosive fireball would go down 1000 feet of drywall shafts before blowing things up, and causing more destruction in the basements than in the lobby.


Did I mention that there were only 2 shafts that reached from the impact sites to the basement to begin with? An express elevator and the main freight elevator. And the main freight's operator survived and is living testament to the fact that no fireball rocked his elevator or its shaft. The only other remote possibility is car #6, an express elevator, and for the reasons mentioned above, that theory still doesn't cut it. It would only be a single event and not multiple explosions anyway even if it WERE true, but it doesn't account for all of the evidence regarding the WTC1 lobby blow-out anyway.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by bsbray11]

BoneZ,

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

Originally posted by thomk
The planes that flew into the WTC poured a thousand gallons or more down the shafts.

And it doesn't matter if you pour 5 gallons out on your driveway and ignite it, or 5000 gallons, you will never get an explosive effect. Don't confuse Hollywood special effects with real life.

I'm an engineer, BoneZ. Trust me, I do not get my info from Hollywood.

You'll NEVER get an "explosive" effect, eh.

Have you ever heard a "hot start" in a Turbine engine, running Jet-A? I have. Up close & personal. It took out ~75% of the glass windows in the walls & ceilings of the football field sized building in which we were installing the fuel control system that my company produced and the fuel metering valve that I was in charge of. If it weren't for all the netting in the ceiling (as a result of previous hot starts), I and 10 other guys would have been skewered.

Pouring gasoline on your driveway & throwing a match on it..?? LMAO.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
Which brings me to....

Originally posted by thomk
Never heard of a fuel air explosive, have you?

Yeah, we get a few people once in a great while that think they know what they're talking about and bring up FAE.

Keyword here is "explosive". FAE's are designed to be explosive:

I'm curious. What, exactly, do you think that "an explosion" is??

What, exactly, do you think goes on in the cylinder of a gas or diesel engine?

It is an explosion. When it happens too fast, it's called detonation. When done right, it is STILL an explosion, creating an over-pressure that does all the work of forcing the pistons down.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

The main destructive force of FAE is high overpressure

Source

In other words, the more aerosolized fuel you put into and FAE, the more pressure and the bigger the bang. But we're talking about aerosolized and pressurized fuel which we did not have at the WTC.
It's the pressure that causes FAE's to be explosive and there was no pressure at the WTC.

Your external source is right. Your interpretation is completely wrong. The extreme over pressure is the RESULT of the explosion (and does the damage). Just before the detonation, the uncontained, distributed fuel is at zero gauge pressure.

The key to an FAE is to distribute the fuel into a dispersed gas or aerosol before detonation. This give a much faster and more efficient reaction for simple surface area to volume considerations.

This is exactly the sort of situation that could have occurred in the elevator shafts. The key would be the delay of the ignition.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
You can do all the tests at home you like, you will never make kerosene explosive.
Until you or anyone else can show how pouring kerosene down elevator shafts or anywhere else can magically make kerosene explosive, then you're just wasting our time and yours.

I guess that exploding fireball outside WTC2 immediately after the impact was just a figment of someone's imagination, eh?

I guess hot starts in turbine engines are also figments of the imagination...


TomK

[edit on 7-12-2009 by thomk]

Originally posted by thomk
The key to an FAE is to distribute the fuel into a dispersed gas or aerosol before detonation. This give a much faster and more efficient reaction for simple surface area to volume considerations.

This is exactly the sort of situation that could have occurred in the elevator shafts. The key would be the delay of the ignition.

How close to the impacts do you think this "could" have occurred?

How far do you thing the effects of such a blast, let alone the blast wave itself, would travel? Given that for the blast wave itself to travel any distance, the fuel would have to be in proper ratio to air just waiting to be detonated for that same distance, to keep it going like a chain reaction.