You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

Originally posted by cjcord
I have heard this claimed by many, but have yet to get a further answer. Why exactly do you believe this to be the work of God? I am quite sure that examining circumstances you would find a logical not divinely inspired cause for these things happening. I could claim the same. I tried to kill myself more than once, in very effective ways. A chance occurrence saved my life. Not God, but human actions and biological functions. I post this to make the point that it is very easy to claim divine intervention, but at the end of the day there was an effect- it had a cause. The causes can be found, without mentioning God.

My children were to have no christmas presents this year because we can not afford to feed ourselves, let alone buy gifts. Yesterday I received a phone call that a charity was bringing gifts to my house. Some would say that is a miracle. But it's not. I had already done some legwork trying to get assistance for other reasons. My name was in a database, and it came up and assistance was offered.


I lost my home in Katrina. A church group transported my family to a new home and helped us find work. Is that divine intervention? No, i actively sought help, and found it.

We were burglarized by someone armed with two guns, while sleeping. We should have been dead. A passing cop car scared the person off before anything happened. God? Hardly.

Many people would claim it was GOD for all of these things- but it wasn't. It was cause and effect. Claiming it was God seems delusional to me. But I can understand that some need faith in something, I just get irked when they try to use that faith as evidence.

You're actually demonstrating Biblical principle here whether you realize it or not:

"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." - Luke 11:9

You needed help, you sought help and help was provided to you (notice I did not say "you got help")

You and the charity were both demonstrating: "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does." - James 1:22

Taking action is a very important part of a dynamic relationship between a person and God. Sitting there saying, "God, gimme stuff" is leaving 1/2 of the effort out of the equation (although in your case I respect and admire that the motivations you have are competely selfess). I think you are indeed blessed, though it may not seem like it from your end.

Sorry for so much responding to your posts in particular cjcord, but I'm interested in the things you're saying.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by cjcord
Why is religious ritual and teaching, as a divine concept and infallible, so important to so many humans?

Ritual is a style of teaching. Personally I'm not a fan of 'going through the motions' frequently, but it's nice to have a reminder now and then. Regarding teachings...well, we all can use more teaching in just about every aspect of our lives. Any teachings by humans is going to have some measure of fallibility as with all things we do because we're human, though there is a great deal of value nevertheless.

Originally posted by cjcord
How do "Book" based religions rationalize quoting it as the word of god when it truth, it is the word of other humans?

I do not expect a non-believer to take it as the Word of God without knowing God Himself...particularly because I'd be a hypocrite in this area if I did. I would however like to highlight the rationale behind the quotation. Does it make sense? Why does it makes sense? Only then can we discuss divine influence. It would be hasty in my opinion to say "in truth, it is the word of other humans" without knowing for sure.

Originally posted by cjcord
If it is written by humans, does that not imply that it is as prone to bias and environment as any book written in modern times?

Yes, if it is written by humans, it surely would be.

Originally posted by cjcord
I have a few more, but it was not my intention to hijack your thread.

These are all very good questions, and I'm trying to limit myself as well to avoid being charged with threadjacking.

Originally posted by cjcord
Why is religious ritual and teaching, as a divine concept and infallible, so important to so many humans?

Ritual is a style of teaching. Personally I'm not a fan of 'going through the motions' frequently, but it's nice to have a reminder now and then. Regarding teachings...well, we all can use more teaching in just about every aspect of our lives. Any teachings by humans is going to have some measure of fallibility as with all things we do because we're human, though there is a great deal of value nevertheless.

Originally posted by cjcord
How do "Book" based religions rationalize quoting it as the word of god when it truth, it is the word of other humans?

I do not expect a non-believer to take it as the Word of God without knowing God Himself...particularly because I'd be a hypocrite in this area if I did. I would however like to highlight the rationale behind the quotation. Does it make sense? Why does it makes sense? Only then can we discuss divine influence. It would be hasty in my opinion to say "in truth, it is the word of other humans" without knowing for sure.

Originally posted by cjcord
If it is written by humans, does that not imply that it is as prone to bias and environment as any book written in modern times?

Yes, if it is written by humans, it surely would be.

Originally posted by cjcord
I have a few more, but it was not my intention to hijack your thread.

These are all very good questions, and I'm trying to limit myself as well to avoid being charged with threadjacking.

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by Misoir

 

Oh and your religion you could say would be Agnostic.

Yeah...pretty much...I wouldn't call it a "religion" though...

As an ex-agnostic myself, I would agree that Agnostic is not a religion.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by saint4God]

Good post S&F

I would say I go further than being " non religious" and view any religion no matter whether christian, muslim etc as being the route cause of the bad things in this reality. Religion instigates war, death, oppression, discrimination, division and segregation. It is the mantra that people run to and hide behind instead of challenging, growing and moving forward.

Are we so afraid of death that we need our gods as a safety net. As the terminally ill man said " I have gone to church every sunday for 60 years. My time is near and when it comes I will just die if there is no god !!" To that I say, wrong....you will die anyway.

Cast religion aside and go out into nature. Breath in this beautifull planet we live on. Enjoy your life, have fun, be happy, be sad. Laugh a little, cry a little and enjoy the one and only life you are probably going to have.



Respects

Coming from the "deep thinker" post in the philosophy forum, where you linked this from. My latest post had this on religion...

"And on religion, a Zen master once said religion can be explained quite simply; a finger pointing to the moon. The finger is the religions dogma, its rituals and symbolism, while the moon is the truth the religion is trying to show. The moon is the spirituality, the truth, "god" and so forth of the religion, and in my belief, all religions point to the same moon. The fingers are all different, and they may describe the moon in different terminology, but it is the same truth. The problem with religion, is the finger. People fixate on the finger. They believe that by keeping a sharp eye on the finger it will lead them to the moon. What they neglect to see is that, between the two extremes, the finger and the moon, is a great distance, and THAT, is the true purpose of religion that has so horribly been neglected. The pathway the finger tries to present."

I'll say that I only read the first post in this thread, but this is what I present before all of you on this topic. And to add, you do not need religion of any kind to find the path to truth. You can, through philosophical thought, entheogenics and so forth, hell even through quantum physics, find the path way to truth. Religion merely illustrates and shows the pathway by use of a finger; the problem being, as I said, that people fixate only on the finger, and utterly neglect the pathway it presents, or often they begin to traverse towards truth on this pathway because they are side tracked.

reply to post by CHA0S


For being so sure that nobody can know the truth, you sure do seem obsessed with convincing others. You will remain obsessed and tormented by not knowing Christ the rest of your life. I'm also sure this isn't the last post that tries to convince us to somehow to join in your disbelief.

reply to post by CHA0S
You are classed as an Agnostic I think.I agree with you in many ways,I personally do not believe or disbelieve in God.To believe in God because a book tells me that it is true or because another person told me it was true would mean I would be very weak minded and gullible and unfortunately a heck of alot of people in this world simply believe in something because they are told to believe it or are socially conditioned to believe it!I am no expert in the subject but we do know that most modern religions are actually based on earlier ideas or stories from the first civilisations,the most interesting for me though is Sumer where the say things like the gods came from the heavens and taught them agriculture,Astronomy,maths etc.etc.PS.If two people were to see a fairy in the garden and you can't see it would you take their word for it and agree that fairies must be true because you are outnumbered 2 to 1.......of course you would'nt!

reply to post by CHA0S


Nice rant... I don't agree with most of it but, still a good piece of writing.

That being said, I do have to ask; who are you trying to convince? Those of us who read the OP or... perhaps yourself?

best

Originally posted by cjcord
Why is religious ritual and teaching, as a divine concept and infallible, so important to so many humans?

Romans 1:20-23

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools... "

Truth You can handle! You want the truth?

Bible is composed of only about 5,000 super-comprehensive words,
their general sense meanings were derived by their many occurrences
by Monks in Monasteries devoting whole lifetimes to developing theologies
and writing interpretive Commentaries for a societies "religious" ordering

15,000 words then became 50,000 unto 500,000 in a rapid progression
living perceptions abandoning the dead languages roots being realized
until "faith" became blind not defined -and "spirit" a ghost not inspiration
even the word in the beginning GOD was no more to be comprehended

Soul was no longer a recording shaping an Identity but an eternal subject
Heaven wasn't what's heaved-up nor hell that which is held-back for shame
and a Name became not a representation of being nor a descriptive term
but pronounced variedly unwritten in birthstone and inscribed in tombstone


Then glyphs began to be found pecked and scratched in rocks worldwide
that showed the origins of Alphabetic letters tied-together in word pictures
and Iconography symbols condensing the wisdom of ancient knowledge
with monolithic building projects having vast understanding of symmetry

Teaching Shaddai (Almighty) was Shang-Ti and EL the Earth on a tilted axis
and word Toward as inevitable or 'meant To be' and so the prime directive
that Ye'aH was Sun Moon & Planets and YeHUaH the 7-vowels intoned scale
Day Month & Year Icons showed the Sun & Moon the same in size are seen


Scrolls found at the lowest place on Earth refounded the missing Calendar
and showed that some Jews even at that time still knew the Alphabet came
from Authority of the fixed stars of the Zodiac in a yearly connect-the-dots
started by Abraham being challenged of the Over-Upon to account them all

And an Amulet turned up in Amsterdam from Dutch antiquity revealing that
GOD was Genera (creator) Opera (sustainer) Demoli (renewer) from AUM
shivA vishnU brahMa to the Romans AVM Agni Varuna Mithra before DEO
from Greek deomai 'petitioned /sought' being the "concept" behind THEOS

And a Bioplastic encased Linen burial cloth of Judaean weave came to light
when the last reigning monarchs fell, proving to be a holographic negative
of the crossed-up and affixed Lord of Creation as a Creature Resurrected
His Name: YeShUaA Ha'NeTzaRI U'MeLeCh Ha'YeHUDIM /YHUH, ("LORD")

I believe in a 'creator' whom I suppose most folk choose to call God, but I don't believe he or she cares a damn about us as individuals, and is only interested in the human race in the same way a scientist studies a pack of rats in the lab. If God was as careing about his/her human creations as the Bible would have us believe, there would be no such things as war, sickness, starvation or any of the other crap we have to live through. I was once considered to be a "good Christian", always looking after others at great financial expense, then I broke my back and had to fight with my government for almost three years before receiving a disability pension.
Meanwhile my wife and I lost our home and all we had worked hard for. So where the hell was this caring God? As far as helping others goes, we wouldn't change a thing, except that now we just can't afford it. As for a loving God? Bullcrap! Our planet is one big laboratory, and all life on it is just one big experiment.

reply to post by Bkrmn


I just think you never knew God. Not trying to get into a fight here either.

reply to post by CHA0S


"I don't need a book to tell me how to be a good person..."

An interesting and thought provoking thread.

There is a book of laws and statutes written by man that you follow that some would argue does make you a good person:

Murder - bad
Stealing - bad
Lies - bad
Adultery - bad
Etc.

Does it really matter who writes the book? God's messages and laws were interpreted by men for the bible. Man's messages and laws are interpreted by men (courts) for man.

I am not a religious person but I do have faith, mainly because without faith hope does not exist.

Peace.............yak055h

reply to post by Bilw85

For being so sure that nobody can know the truth, you sure do seem obsessed with convincing others.

I'm just putting out my oppinion, in hope some people might get something from it, and broaden their views on religion, Atheists, and religious folk alike.

You will remain obsessed and tormented by not knowing Christ the rest of your life.

I'm not obsessed and tormented by such a thing...in fact, I'm quite content with how I live my life, and my view on religion. There is no empty hole within my soul, something needing fulfillment through the Lord, I'm a spiritually fulfilled person in every way.

I'm also sure this isn't the last post that tries to convince us to somehow to join in your disbelief.

This will certainly be my last thread on ATS which involves my views on religion, I've said what I needed to say, and I'm now sick of even talking about the subject because some people are just so attached to their current belief system, they won't even consider questioning it in the slightest, there's just no point sometimes, and I'm over this whole thing, we can only help people when they want to help themselves.

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

Your confusing false religion with true religion. Yes, you may never have been exposed to true religion or ever heard of it, but it is vastly different than the marketing scams that have been run for thousands of years. Truly competent spiritual teachers have come to earth and are here now! The creation isn't broken, your spiritual condition is the determining factor for when you are inclined towards the truth. Faith will be an essentially ingredient at that point because what your spirit intuits inclines you towards very subtle currents and not outward and open worldly impulses. What matters isn't your judgments of any faith what matters is your spiritual condition and the reality is you can't do anything about that. The world is full of lies and liars and the mind is the greatest of all. Deception is everywhere but so is the truth.