You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

We don't REALLY know if the universe was created by a God, or if Gods(s) really exist.

I've started a few threads about religion, and after talking to a lot of Christians, when it comes down to it, most of you have stated that we shouldn't take every word the bible says literally...and because it is a translation/interpretation from another language, which is probably an interpretation/translation from yet another language...how can we trust any of it? Assuming it was the work of God in the first place...how do we know man hasn't edited and changed it do his desire over time? How can we really know what to take as truth? How do we know what sections aren't the words of God? It's a guessing game...and I'm not for it...

I don't need a book to tell me how to be a good person...I don't need the fear of Hell or the desire and temptation of Heaven to help me be a better person...I don't need to be a good person so I can please an almighty Lord...I am a good person without religion in my life...basically what I'm saying is...there is no point...we don't really know how the universe works...if a God exists...if we go to Heaven...etc...we really don't know...and you can't trust that bible to give you those answers...

Just to make it clear...I am not Atheist...nor am I religious...

And I find it's just as arrogant to say God doesn't exist, as it is to say he does exist IMO...so I just go about my life, being the best person I can...and that's all I can do...if God does exist...I just hope that's enough to get into Heaven...or at least avoid Hell...if such places really exist...

Can you not see that religion causes more problems then it solves? Religion isn't necessary to feed and clothe the homeless...it isn't necessary to have religion if you want to believe a "God" exists and have hope...and it isn't necessary for anything except herding the mindless masses like sheep, dumbing them down, making them feel guilty and fearful, and making profit...

And before you ask me, this is why I think religion isn't good for society:

Religion: Usually informing it's followers that everything in the universe (including humans) was created by a God of some description, it relieves followers of the need to ask questions about reality, history and our origins. It totally strips you of any chance at independent thought, Christianity for example, a whole freaking book that dictates how you should live your entire life...was written by man, not a God...I'm not saying God(s) don't exist, or even that they didn't create us or the universe, just that no book on Earth contains the will of such an entity if one does exist...

All religions are different and full of lies about reality, sure, some of the stories my be good life lessons, but it's still the work of man, and a lot of the time, it's just plain bad advice. We really have no idea what the truth is! It's silly to accept everything you are told without evidence. Now you don't have to ask questions at all. Seemingly, some great book has answered everything for you. You now know where you came from and how you got here, you don't really have to ask questions about reality. You now know what's right and wrong....and the bible even goes so far as to say "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding.
"...basically you can't even think for your self anymore. How can you accept all this and be content with it? It's an insult to independent thought.

In my eyes, religion takes us on a road in the completely opposite direction to where we should be headed. We shouldn't be reading a whole bunch of crap, accepting it as truth, and throw our questions out the window, we should be denying ignorance, we should be seeking real truth and answers, we should be asking questions (with totally open minds), and we should be doing it all without being mentally enslaved and manipulated by reality overlords. If any God(s) do exist, this is the way in which we will be able to know and feel it's existence...we need to decide for our selves...we need to do our own thinking...that way we might get some where...and maybe one day discover the truth...get some real answers...

Disclaimer: This thread includes snippets from other posts I have made.

EDIT: My "belief" is...I'm way to simple minded to even begin to understand reality and where we came from...and anything is possible really...the link in my sig titled "We know nothing - Expanding the mind with philosophy" seems highly relevant here...

[edit on 29/11/09 by CHA0S]

OP, you commented in another thread that no one had replied to this one, and you wondered why (sarcastically, I think). So I made it a point to stop by and reply. Not sure if this was the reply you were looking for though.

I happen to agree completely with your post, and posted such, before I read this one. I happen to feel that the lack of responses to this thread is due to the logic of it. It doesn't debate religious concepts, so nothing to argue against. It validates the idea that we are free thinkers, so no argument. Most importantly, it doesn't pose a question to be answered, thus no answers. An essay on one's own ideas does not usually provoke response unless there is something to respond to. Perhaps if you asked for a response within the thread, you might get more? I have a couple if you would like to use them- based on your own post:

Why is religious ritual and teaching, as a divine concept and infallible, so important to so many humans?

How do "Book" based religions rationalize quoting it as the word of god when it truth, it is the word of other humans?

If it is written by humans, does that not imply that it is as prone to bias and environment as any book written in modern times?

I have a few more, but it was not my intention to hijack your thread.

"We all came weeping out of a womans vagina"...Dave Mathews

P.S. No text book included and don't eat yellow snow, unless it's in a snowcone cup, but even then....it's just not a wise idea.

Peace

Originally posted by CHA0S
We don't REALLY know if the universe was created by a God, or if Gods(s) really exist.

.... You have not yet allowed yourself to be Hypnotized.

and given the suggestion that God is Love,
or that God is Good... ergo, anything else not derived from God is tainted

etc etc etc, ad nauseium

reply to post by cjcord

I have a few more, but it was not my intention to hijack your thread.

Oh no...it's totally fine...I'm just happy this thread eventually got a response and gets to see the light of day again...it certiantly deserves some thought IMO...I enjoyed your post and I think your right about why this thread got no response.

Thanks.

[edit on 16/12/09 by CHA0S]

reply to post by CHA0S


I think everything points to the fact that this is hell. I mean earth is hell, and what is described in the bible.

I know its not a new idea, but i believe it to be the case. Why would you know the truth living inside a system.

I do believe in God but to say you know God exists is unconfirmable, but there are so many bad things that should have happened to me and my family but never did and I believe it was the work of God. I don't think any religion is right, If there is to be a religion then it should be a religion that is independent and belongs to each person individualy. An example would be a person who believes in Kharma and Muhammad but not God. See that would be your own independent thought or you could take it further and create your own interpretations of the world and heaven and hell if they exist. I personally don't identify with any religion, I look at the world around me and the history of mankind and interpret the world through my eyes. Religious were meant for control through manipulation, gain control of the entire life and soul of every person by telling them what you want them to do by saying that it is God's divine will and God's purpose for you to live and think that way and you can control everyone. Oh and your religion you could say would be Agnostic.

reply to post by Misoir

Oh and your religion you could say would be Agnostic.

Yeah...pretty much...I wouldn't call it a "religion" though...

Originally posted by Misoir
I do believe in God but to say you know God exists is unconfirmable, but there are so many bad things that should have happened to me and my family but never did and I believe it was the work of God.

I have heard this claimed by many, but have yet to get a further answer. Why exactly do you believe this to be the work of God? I am quite sure that examining circumstances you would find a logical not divinely inspired cause for these things happening. I could claim the same. I tried to kill myself more than once, in very effective ways. A chance occurrence saved my life. Not God, but human actions and biological functions. I post this to make the point that it is very easy to claim divine intervention, but at the end of the day there was an effect- it had a cause. The causes can be found, without mentioning God.

My children were to have no christmas presents this year because we can not afford to feed ourselves, let alone buy gifts. Yesterday I received a phone call that a charity was bringing gifts to my house. Some would say that is a miracle. But it's not. I had already done some legwork trying to get assistance for other reasons. My name was in a database, and it came up and assistance was offered.


I lost my home in Katrina. A church group transported my family to a new home and helped us find work. Is that divine intervention? No, i actively sought help, and found it.

We were burglarized by someone armed with two guns, while sleeping. We should have been dead. A passing cop car scared the person off before anything happened. God? Hardly.

Many people would claim it was GOD for all of these things- but it wasn't. It was cause and effect. Claiming it was God seems delusional to me. But I can understand that some need faith in something, I just get irked when they try to use that faith as evidence.

If you got a problem with religion then fine, that should make a longer thread. But just saying that all religion is bad then going on to talk about christianity does not really cover the topic of religion. There are many religions out there and they should not all be lumped in with christianity.

I hear you loud and clear... Religion the way i see it, makes everybody ells who don´t believe in the same idea, so to speak, an infidell who will go to hell. Now that has nothing to do with spiritualism, that is scaretactics nothing ells. Another problem i have with it is this, i think that i´m a fairly good guy and i want everybody to go to heaven, and i mean everybody. So how can some religions clame that, if you don´t believe in some book, your gonna go to hell, knowing that in some jungles lives some indians with absolutly no contact with the outside world. How are they gonna know about this book? they love their kids too, they try to teach their kids everything they can within their world, so your telling me that an all loving god would put them in a situation where they will never have a chance of comming to heaven, that would just be cruel.

No i don´t buy it.

That's kinda the point of missionaries, no? To spread "the Word" to those too remote to know. So in their minds, they are doing what you state, saving the tribes souls.

Where's the beef, I mean the truth.

The idea of what god really is... is both frightening, and comforting. Most people are not ready for it, ....

In fact, most people who have already died are not ready for it, there are layers and layers ( dimensions) that one works up through, usually.

The only reason I havent made a thread about what I know, ... is because I would be loved by some, hated by others, .... and prolly end up crucified as others before me.

God does exist, it is confirmable. Many of us (myself included) were at least at a point where we did not know, which requires seeking confirmation. If anyone is feeling "lost in the woods" in this search, I'd be glad to help. The truth can surely be handled, don't worry, it's a truth well worth knowing for certain.

[edit on 16-12-2009 by saint4God]

Originally posted by CHA0S
I've started a few threads about religion, and after talking to a lot of Christians, when it comes down to it, most of you have stated that we shouldn't take every word the bible says literally...and because it is a translation/interpretation from another language, which is probably an interpretation/translation from yet another language...how can we trust any of it? Assuming it was the work of God in the first place...how do we know man hasn't edited and changed it do his desire over time? How can we really know what to take as truth? How do we know what sections aren't the words of God? It's a guessing game...and I'm not for it...

We have heard from a number of Christians that the bible is invalid for the reasons you stated above. However, for the God of the bible to be as powerful as he is he should have the ability to reveal his word through any language. Especially since he is the one who created them as well. If that is the case, and we believe it is, then the Christians are denying the word and Christ/Messiah claims to be that word. He says if you deny me I will deny you. Is it any wonder then that the jesus who is worshiped is actually the antichrist? What is the proof, the scriptures. If you don't believe the scriptures then as they say time will tell. Stay tuned keep your eyes and ears peeled. If (said for your sake) the revealing of the beast is a precursor to the end times then the prophecies will prove themselves. Info

I usually can relate with the posts of the author

The closest thing regarding the truth we can perceive, is reality. Most people can't even fathom the reality.

Reality and truth are two distinct concepts. If you have fantasies of massacre - that is reality, even it is within your mind. The truth instead is the actuality, the reason behind the effect, combined together.

The reality is that we are here discussing these things. The truth again consist all these things; the reasons why we are here discussing these things, the things we discuss and the implications of our discussions. And I don't even know if that's the truth! Moreover, I don't know what truth is!

Scio Me Nihil Scire!

-v

Originally posted by The Riley Family
We have heard from a number of Christians that the bible is invalid for the reasons you stated above.

Then they're not Christian, it really is that simple. The definition of the word "Christian" comes from and is found first in the Bible. This is like saying an English professor doesn't believe in the Dictionary.

This post startlingly expresses my own views.

I was raised in an areligious household and have also not been comfortable assuming the label of agnostic or athiest. You're right CHAOS, neither you nor I know if there is in fact a God or creator entity. I remain open minded until I find out first hand.

I appreciate the humility you demonstrate in admitting that you are"too simple minded" to begin to know or understand our origins. That is where I am at, as well.

I am grateful for an upbringing that liberated me from the constraints of a forced belief system. The continual search for the truth is very motivating even though I invariably end up with more questions than answers.

With respect to religions in general, if they all purport to have a handle on the truth, why hasn't one risen above all others to achieve universal acceptance? This would indicate to me that the many world religions have achieved nothing more than "theory" status.

An aspect of religion that troubles me is that while laudably encouraging virtuous conduct, there are many elements of oppression inherent in teachings (gender, racial, intolerance, etc...) that negate or contradict the positive. I am unable to reconcile religion as being a good thing overall because of this. I am alone here?

I happily remain uncommitted to any belief system. Mine is and probably always will be a 'work in progress'.

Originally posted by saint4God
God does exist, it is confirmable. Many of us (myself included) were at least at a point where we did not know, which requires seeking confirmation. If anyone is feeling "lost in the woods" in this search, I'd be glad to help. The truth can surely be handled, don't worry, it's a truth well worth knowing for certain.

[edit on 16-12-2009 by saint4God]

Is this a serious post? Who is this "us" you speak of? And what methods were used to confirm the existence of an idea? I would be eager to see this definite proof myself! Mind you, I do not feel lost at all, just the opposite actually, but your conviction intrigues me.

If we can agree that the word confirm is defined as: "to establish the truth, accuracy, validity, or genuineness of; corroborate; verify" , and you have claimed that the existence of God has been confirmed, pray do point me in the direction of this unassailable truth. And if you plan to point me to the bible, I feel the need to remind you that using the subject of question as validity is not valid. You cannot claim the words of the Bible are proof that the bible is true. There must be an outside source of evidence.

As well, one's opinions are not actual proof either. And personal belief is an opinion, yes.

So separate all that chaff, and let's see what you've got. And no, I am not being snarky, I really am interested.

Originally posted by cjcord
Is this a serious post?

Yes.

Originally posted by cjcord
Who is this "us" you speak of?

Many people, myself included.

Originally posted by cjcord
And what methods were used to confirm the existence of an idea?

It isn't merely an idea, that's what I was trying to explain in my post. Although there is no set method, some dialogue helps in understanding where a person is at spiritually as well as where they've been. It helps in assisting where a person is going.

Originally posted by cjcord
I would be eager to see this definite proof myself! Mind you, I do not feel lost at all, just the opposite actually, but your conviction intrigues me.

Great! Feel free to U2U me, we'll likely have to discuss this offline as it is both off topic and we can talk about our own histories, understandings, experiences, etc.

Originally posted by cjcord
If we can agree that the word confirm is defined as: "to establish the truth, accuracy, validity, or genuineness of; corroborate; verify" , and you have claimed that the existence of God has been confirmed, pray do point me in the direction of this unassailable truth.

By all means pray, it'd help both of us for no communication is complete without both good explanation and earnest understanding. I'd not want it any other way than with God's oversight.

Originally posted by cjcord
And if you plan to point me to the bible, I feel the need to remind you that using the subject of question as validity is not valid. You cannot claim the words of the Bible are proof that the bible is true. There must be an outside source of evidence.

Does the Bible prove God? Or does God prove the Bible? For me it was the latter, but for others the former.

Originally posted by cjcord
As well, one's opinions are not actual proof either.

Agreed.

Originally posted by cjcord
And personal belief is an opinion, yes.

Unless the belief is validated by a fact...then how much of an opinion is it?

Originally posted by cjcord
So separate all that chaff, and let's see what you've got. And no, I am not being snarky, I really am interested.

Good deal, I look forward to your message.

[edit on 17-12-2009 by saint4God]