77 = No Hijack, Flight Deck Door Closed for Entire Flight

Originally posted by Rewey
Is that reply productive or necessary? You seem to have plenty of time to type a reply to weedwhacker - maybe YOU should use that time to try reading? Maybe you'd find the answer to your questions, which weedwhacker suggests have already been provided. Maybe try the search function?

Rew

I am really not sure what is so productive about your reply.

Listen up, toots. I know all about the search function and using it RARELY turns up the proof and evidence that debunkers claim is all over the place but cannot link to.

Why is it you have to take the time to harass me simply because I asked someone for more than just their own word? It seems to me like you only jumped in to help WW get away with NOT backing anything up. I guess when a story is true, you do anything you can to prevent people from seeing all the obvious evidence, right?

Maybe you should take the time to read your own post and see if you cannot figure out why it completely validates mine.

Originally posted by Alfie1

Originally posted by truthquest

Originally posted by Alfie1

Originally posted by JPhish
this proves absolutely nothing.~

It's well known that Muslim terrorists possess the ability to walk through walls.~

about freaking time!

No need to walk through walls. They went through the door. Like all the supposed smoking guns I heve ever seen truther's bring up this is spluttering out in record time. :-

(a) No evidence that recording the Flt Deck Door parameter was required by FAA.

(b) No evidence that N644AA was ever capable of recording that parameter. ( no signal in 42 hours of recording is pretty conclusive that it wasn't. )

Cite your source for "42 hours of recording time". Because according to the link from the OP, there was about 1.5 hours recorded. Where are you pulling this "42 hours" number. Hopefull you won't completely ignore me like the guy who claimed there was "25 hours worth of recorded data".

Even Pilots for 9/11 Truth accept it. Have a look at their website. 25 hours is the minimum an FDR must record but, typically, it is a good deal more.

"With that said, even if the data shows closed for all flights, it doesnt mean the data is faulty as many pilots prefer to keep the cockpit door closed at all times during flight or just have no reason to open the door (no need for potty, have their food and drinks already with them prior to flight.. .etc)"
pilotsfor911truth.org...

So yes apparently you are right that there are more flights on the flight data recorder. However, you are wrong that they do anything to help the baseless claims that the sensor or recorder was faulty or nor properly working.

reply to post by truthquest


tq

You are obviously anxious for this Flt Deck Door business to be true but have you been following the mayhem on the New FDR Decode thread.

Rob Balsamo's tech. expert at Pf9/11t, turbofan, has defected because he says " I found out this press release (by Pft about the door) was based on poor understanding of how the flight data is recorded, as well as not having the proper manual to prove whether a connection was made between the cockpit door and the FDAU."

So it is not just a question of was there a faulty sensor but whether there was ever capacity for the flight deck door parameter to be recorded on that aircraft full stop.

Those guys can are willfully self-deluding.

This is trivially simple. These are the unequivocal facts.

1. Two competent, professional pilots were at the controls when the plane took off.

2. Between 8:51 & 8:54 AM EDT, the professional pilots were replaced.
From that point on, an incompetent, amateur pilot was at the controls.
Someone who could not properly control:
Vertical Acceleration
Roll Angle
Airspeed
Pitch Angle
Altitude
Heading

This is proven without question in the following chart of the FDR data from the NTSB.



3. The only way to get into the cockpit was thru the Flight Deck Door. Ergo, the door WAS opened.

4. The FDR does NOT record the door opening.

There are two possible interpretations.

A. The sensor circuit was broken. For 12 flights. This would require that Boeing's diagnostic program and AA's maintenance staff be incompetent. They are proven, by decades of success to not be incompetent, so this alternative is rejected.

And the ultimate, simple, trivial, obvious conclusion:

B. The sensor was never hooked up.
___

All of PfT's maintenance & circuit hand-waving is incompetent nonsense. Turbofan is not an aircraft mechanic. He is an auto mechanic. He has precisely zero time maintaining aircraft.

Rob Balsamo (R_Mackey) is not an aircraft mechanic either. And does not possess the honesty to provide straight answers to any questions.
___

This answer is trivial. Anyone buying to this nonsense as "a mystery" is simply a sucker for P4T's snake oil.

TomK

reply to post by thomk


FYI: I'm not an automechanic. Bad rumour. See signature.

UPDATE: information on the 12 Previous Flights -

A member at JREF "moorea34" obtained the information regarding the 12 flights:


Flight Time Latitude Longitude Latitude Longitude Departure Arrival

FL 00 1:20:20 38.52716 -99.11951 41.97567 -87.89560 San Francisco (?) Chicago
FL 01 2:30:40 41.97567 -87.89560 28.43708 -81.31840 Chicago Orlando
FL 02 2:37:08 28.43021 -81.31136 41.95078 -87.90144 Orlando Chicago
FL 03 4:20:00 41.97001 -87.89886 33.93951 -118.39828 Chicago Los Angeles
FL 04 4:19:24 33.94484 -118.40601 41.97464 -87.90470 Los Angeles Chicago
FL 05 4:10:36 41.97464 -87.90470 33.94020 -118.39949 Chicago Los Angeles
FL 06 3:54:12 33.94020 -118.39949 41.97481 -87.89938 Los Angeles Chicago
FL 07 3:55:08 41.97481 -87.89938 33.94089 -118.40738 Chicago Los Angeles
FL 08 4:29:44 33.93814 -118.40773 41.96777 -87.90419 Los Angeles Chicago
FL 09 4:20:48 41.97361 -87.90367 33.94810 -118.39296 Chicago Los Angeles
FL 10 4:33:48 33.94501 -118.40618 38.93984 -77.45310 Los Angeles Washington Dulles
FL 11 1:26:28 38.94001 -77.45310 38.87032 -77.06154 Washington Dulles Pentagon

The first flight is not complete...

Then you can go here ... www.bts.gov
The plane is numbered N5BPAA

www.bastison.net...

Even for the incomplete flight, it's probably this one, from San Francisco:

AA 09/06/2001 1608 N5BPAA ORD 23:20 23:16 0240 0238 -4 23:32 0016


Time is correct for each flight, delays also!!!


Objection of truthers: the number is not correct !!!!!!

Yes, but American Airlines uses alias for its planes...
You can verify it here : www.airliners.net...

For example, this picture www.airliners.net...&sid=ef57906423646ba2c61507284d57d013
01/22/1999, Los Angeles, no N644AA registered but :
AA 01/22/1999 0144 N5BPAA IAD 12:45 12:46 0293 0293 1 13:10 0024
Again ?
www.airliners.net...&sid=baf702b166e4519ad4811041e87c78db
Austin,Texas, May 2000, no N644AA for this month but 29th :
AA 05/29/2000 1733 N5BPAA SJC 18:50 19:10 0207 0203 20 19:23 0013
And again...
www.airliners.net...&sid=baf702b166e4519ad4811041e87c78db
February 2001, Miami... 11 flights for N5BPAA, 0 for N644AA during this month...

Source: forums.randi.org...

Originally posted by turbofan
reply to post by thomk

 

FYI: I'm not an automechanic. Bad rumour. See signature.

My apologies.

Your shop advertisement says "Engine Building, Diagnostics & Repair. EFI & Carb Tuning"

If you are not an auto mechanic, what is your expertise in that field?

TomK

Originally posted by truthquest
So yes apparently you are right that there are more flights on the flight data recorder. However, you are wrong that they do anything to help the baseless claims that the sensor or recorder was faulty or nor properly working.

Actually, it does quite a bit to support the argument that the FDR was not recording the true condition of the Flight Deck Door.

Because not only do you have 11 other flights, but also pre-flight and overnight checks/maintenance on the ground, all during which the condition of the Flight Deck Door never changes.

The claim is not baseless. The NTSB themselves have identified the Flight Deck Door parameter as one of hundreds of parameters that were either not recorded properly or could not be validated.

Your claim, however, that during 42 recorded hours of operation the Flight Deck Door did not open once is baseless and downright ridiculous.

If you really want to hold onto your delusion just quickly jump ahead to the argument that the data has been controlled by the perps and is fake. We know you're heading that way anyway, so just get on with it.

My flight leg Dec. 06.
MMMX-KLAX (Mexico city-Los Angeles.)
Flight time 03:50 hrs.
Cockpit door opened by F/A after I signaled her, passing 10000 feet AGL (Above ground level), in this case 18000 ft. altitude.
Mexico city is at 7316 feet elevation, so we round it up.
We asked for a coffee and a soft drink.
Then at about 01:00 hr. into the flight, I went to the bathroom. I had to open the door of course.
About 02:00 hs. into the flight the other pilot went. (He also went by the door.)
The F/A also offered us dinner, and we opened the door for her to bring it.
Then as I have done for many many years now, about 10 min. before our descent into LAX I went to the bathroom again.
I hate it when I am on approach and I start getting the feeling that I have to go pee. So I ALWAYS do this. (Those were 5 times.)
My leg today, before commuting home (MMVR) was KLAX-MMMM
(Los Angeles-Morelia.) Flight time 02:50 min.
Reaching cruise altitude we oppened the door for the F/A to bring us coffee and drink.
About the middle of the flight she offered us sandwiches and she had to bring them opening the door of course.
Then, before descent, I went to my usual bathroom visit, this time I also brushed my teeth, and I had to go to the aft. toilet because the forward had broken down. (S##t happens.) (Those were 3 times.)
Just my 2c. Thanks for reading.



[edit on 8-12-2009 by rush969]

reply to post by rush969


But, you see....Cap'n Bob Balsamo, and apparently all the other minions, do not believe that the American Airlines pilots were human.

Therefore, in the fantasy land of magical "Flight Deck Door Closed for Entire Flight" desperation to cling to any, any shred of outrageous nonsense in order to boost their egos, and play to their adoring fans, they must stick to the script.

Only humans have shame. (And biological necessities). NOT the PFT group/club/cabal/cult or whatever.

Just out of curiosity I kept track today.
Flight leg MMMX-KORD (Mexico city-Chicago O'Hare).
Flight time 03:22 hrs.
Door opened 8 times during flight.
Reasons pretty much same as above post.
Thanks.

reply to post by rush969


You know, it is so sad.

The poor deluded souls are eating this crappola up, they hang on their "Master's" every post at some of those club sites.

The blaring headlines!! The clever posts, deflecting the voices of reason with more gobbledegook.

Buy more stuff!!! buy more stuff!!! Send donations!!!

Bah!

reply to post by weedwhacker


YOU GOT IT!!!
I´ve been saying it also.
They are just being conned.

I'm confused...did this thread get hijacked by the "support the official story" crowd? All I see in the last few posts is how the group that put this information out wants your money and they have agendas to mislead people to question the official story with FOIA requests that took years to gain access to. Did we come to a conclusion on this information?

reply to post by ExPostFacto

The only conclusion that can be reached is that there was no door sensor connected. Either that or in 42 recorded hours, including maintenance engine runs, the door NEVER opened while the engines were running.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Okay so it really doesn't do anything then either for or against the official story except to say that was it supposed to be connected and why wasn't it connected.

reply to post by ExPostFacto

Because it is not required to be. This falls under the optional parameters on the FDR.

reply to post by Zaphod58

And the NTSB report does list the flight deck door among 'parameters not working or unconfirmed' after all. The bit position reserved for it still had to be filled or else the data subframe would be corrupted so there are just 2 options: tie it to ground (logic 0 indicates closed) or tie it to Vcc (logic 1 indicates open).

The fact that it never changes state from 0 = closed shows how it was handled. It really can't be interpreted as conspiracy related unless it can be shown to have changed state at least somewhere in the recording.

reply to post by ExPostFacto

Okay so it really doesn't do anything then either for or against the official story except to say that was it supposed to be connected and why wasn't it connected.

Firstly, the concept of using a term like "Official Story" started by the "Truth" Movement as a way to disparage, by innuendo, a reasonable discussion of events. It is a psychological tactic, well known...some would call it a "Straw Man" ploy --- same thing the 'Truthers' pull out as a complaint whenver they find themselves losing an argument, accusing others of using that tactic against them.

So far, that term ("OS") has been effective at stifling rational consideration of the true facts surrounding events that day. It is bandied about, and deflects the discussion into talking about what "OS" means, and in many cases it becomes tainted with political overtones, IE ---

"If you 'believe' or 'support' the "OS", THEN, (therefore) YOU must be a Bush-lover and as equally guilty of the gross criminal acts perpetrated against our poor, naive Nation."

---or something similar, along those lines.

"Guilt" by association, is another description of that "Truther" tactic.

And, it is fundamentally wrong, ignorant, and pathetically infantile.


OK...that was exposition, in order to lead to my on-topic point.
Repeating:

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
...it supposed to be connected and why wasn't it connected.

See....this latest canard, the FLT DECK DOOR parameter of the FDR stemmed from the P4T cult/cabal/club/group that has been merrily led by its pied piper of ignorance (Rob Balsamo) for some years now. (P4T = 'Pilots For 9/11 Truth')

They urgently and breathlessly trotted this out on THEIR website Forum, to promote yet again one of their bogus claims, without doing the due diligence to examine its veracity.

Egg all over their faces, with no black coffee with which to wipe it off....so their only resort is more bluster and bluffery, which is amazingly amusing to most of us, but still, unfortunately, manages to convince a very small minority of their most avid fans. THAT minor "belief", though, tends to radiate outwards and as such, infects others who, upon a casual look, see no reason not to doubt what's been put out. "Appeal to Authority" is another tactic, allegedly despised by the "Truthers", yet used to good advantage by them in order to foist their nonsense.

BTW....lest the political side of this go unnoticed, or unspoken...I HATE George W. Bush, and most of his minions. Eight years down the toilet, as far as I'm concerned, and this country has suffered terribly. GWB is a stain on history, but not just because 9/11 happened on his watch.

The combination of errors, mismanagement of resources (HUMINT) and utter arrogance that allowed the operatives within our borders freedom to operate, plan, and carry out this plot are faults shared by many, possibly to include members of the Clinton Administration as well.

The system was broken --- the 'system' of intelligence gathering, collating, and dissemination of said Intel. The arrogance was in the dismissal of warnings and offers of aid from friendly nations, who DID have clues to share, but were ignored.

THAT is the 'crime' of Bush, if you wish to call it that. And, that is why these darn fool 'conspiracy', 'inside jobby job' and other "theories" have cropped up....because the buffoons in government WERE hiding something...their sheer incompetence. THAT is what people are smelling. Unfortunately, some people want to find more cockroaches under the kitchen sink than really exist, so they have to bring in their own to make it look worse than it really is.

Political machinations, and the CYA that IS washington, DC, have led to this groundswell of nonsense. What is truly disgusting, though, is the vermin who profit from it.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
....because the buffoons in government WERE hiding something...their sheer incompetence. THAT is what people are smelling

weedwhacker, if that's true and that the only crime was gross negligence and incompetence, then isn't it still worth pursuing as a 'truth'?

Shouldn't the people responsible for the negligence and incompetence be punished in some way or at least shown to be the incompetent fools that they are?

Was anyone punished, demoted or publicly shamed after 911? Is it fair to let 'them' get away with their reputations intact in the history books?