Predestination: Chosen Before Creation

Ephesians 1:4-6
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

So, if we were chosen before Creation, does that mean those that are "true" Christians no matter what, in the end, they will go to heaven? Or, you can't find fault in the chosen because no fault will be in them.

Romans 8:29-30 declares: "For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (NASB).

Since the elect are going to heaven automatically. What does that say about the lost? So, are there some people on the Earth who are here just to be the opposite?

It has to be that way because God is Omniscience, he has to know the future and who will be ultimately faithful. Since he already knows that, he will ensure that those who have the ability to be faithful will be put in position to fulfill their faith, and do his will. Those who he knows will not be faithful, are still placed in a position to do the will of God, even if its simply so that God may use them as an example, like the Pharaoh.

Romans 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

There are some who believe that God will, in his wisdom, ultimately bring all into faith and salvation. That belief is known as Universalism, and some of the early Church fathers did prescribe to a belief in it.

The bible is mostly bunk and full of a lotof bull, to cause divisions that the self rightious can justify to themselves.

I believe in God, and Jesus, but have allways felt mthere was too much "off", about the bible.

I recently found the Urantia papers, and they agree with whaty my heart has allways been telling me.

We were all created equal, we all make choices, we are ALL Gods children not matter what we believe etc, after all, it only makes sense that God created EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, how could any one NOT be technically a child of God???

Why we he create some that were chosen and some that were not??? makes NO sense.

We all have personal choices every day that either bring us closer to God/love/happiness/peace, etc, or choices that repelus away to God, which cause us, depression/anger/hate/greed/pride/jealousy, etc, etc, etc,.....

My 2 cents (sense)

[edit on 21-11-2009 by mellisamouse]

Originally posted by mellisamouse
Why we he create some that were chosen and some that were not??? makes NO sense.

We all have personal choices every day that either bring us closer to God/love/happiness/peace, etc, or choices that repelus away to God, which cause us, depression/anger/hate/greed/pride/jealousy, etc, etc, etc,.....

My 2 cents (sense)

Its not that he makes someone evil or not, its that he already knows what choices everyone will make. He has known every choice that you would make in your life, since the beginning of time. That is what being Omniscience means, and is what predestination is all about.


[edit on 11/21/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by jhill76

So, if we were chosen before Creation, does that mean those that are "true" Christians no matter what, in the end, they will go to heaven? Or, you can't find fault in the chosen because no fault will be in them.

All those that are predestined for Christ will indeed go to heaven one day. That's not to say though that they won't be followers of Christ. They will be. Christ before he comes will draw all of those who are his to himself. There will be no exception. Because of this, if someone is truly Christ's, no matter what, they'll go to heaven. In other words, their eternity is secure.

reply to post by mellisamouse

The bible is mostly bunk and full of a lotof bull, to cause divisions that the self rightious can justify to themselves.

Examples please? I don't see the Bible causing division. Rather, I see people causing division. I see self-righteous people distorting the Bible to make themselves feel better, like the Pharisees. When ever I read the Bible, I fell like dirt, knowing what my sin cost the God of the universe.

I recently found the Urantia papers, and they agree with whaty my heart has allways been telling me.

Jeremiah 17.9:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick...

We were all created equal, we all make choices, we are ALL Gods children not matter what we believe etc, after all, it only makes sense that God created EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, how could any one NOT be technically a child of God???

Not according to the Bible. The Bible says that, until we've accepted Christ, we're enemies of God. When we accept Christ, only then are we adopted into his family.

Why we he create some that were chosen and some that were not??? makes NO sense.

Is not the potter the maker of the pot and able to do what he wills?

Originally posted by octotom

Why we he create some that were chosen and some that were not??? makes NO sense.

Is not the potter the maker of the pot and able to do what he wills?

There is the problem that most people have with religion, they try to judge God by the rules/logic of man, and forget that he is God and has a different set of rules due to his station.

reply to post by jhill76


Yes I agree, but free will was our choice. To me, our lives have already been lived, its like a replay. God knows whom really chose Him, through Christ.

There is no time in eternity, no need for it. So "time" is relative to the snap shots of life, which is all that time is. Those snap shots are the most important things in Life, time is nothing.

So therefore, if our lives have been lived, as God knows the beginning, and the end, He knows if we chose Him in our free will. So as humans, we look at life as a replay, He then calls you because you did choose Him, and then you are His forever, Life forever. But if He does not call you, then you never chose Him anyway.

The answer is in "time". So yes, our lives are predestined by free will.

predestination could also be labeled "intelligent design" of self-repairing, self-replicating nano-technology. Instead of "chosen" how about stepping into a position that is offered to all? If you cannot see it than you are not qualified to fill it. If you spend your entire life compiling the knowledge of others without generating your own knowledge than you are not you, nor are you them. You cannot see the herd when you are in it, nor the forest until you get out of the trees. Study the sameness of things. Everything flows, everything vibrates, everything is cyclic. The Universe is a giant pond that receives vibrations from each body in it. Ripples, waves, rivers, et cetera. One pattern versus a myriad, it's a no brainer.

Just a few days ago I started a thread using the same scripture quote (Romans 8: 29) concerning predestination. My take on this is that this scripted scenerio will be used to give rise to a new power that will come into play when this system falls.

Those who will "sit in the seat of god" will be those who claim they have predestination as the "Sons of God". This is the anti-christ you are looking for. "Anti-" does not always mean "against"; anti- can also mean "in place of".



This new dominionist Kingdom of God movement, which they claim to be a 'righteous governance', will be said to be The Age of Judgement.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Alethea]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by octotom

Why we he create some that were chosen and some that were not??? makes NO sense.

Is not the potter the maker of the pot and able to do what he wills?

There is the problem that most people have with religion, they try to judge God by the rules/logic of man, and forget that he is God and has a different set of rules due to his station.

Exactly. Take for instance, evil in this world. If we didn't have evil, how could we appreciate good? When we go to heaven, it will be a genuine love for God. A lot of people just state why does he allow this and that. Without the dark, how could we appreciate the light.

reply to post by jhill76


You wrote;

So, if we were chosen before Creation, does that mean those that are "true" Christians no matter what, in the end, they will go to heaven?

And....

Since the elect are going to heaven automatically.

It is written in "The Gospel According to John"

Chapter 3 Verse 13

Quote;

3.
"No one
hath ascended
to heaven
but He
who came down
from heaven,
that is,
the Son of Man
who is in heaven."

What then is The Son of Man also called The Man Child in The Revelation of J.C. Really?

Perhaps we need to understand what He is fisrt, before we can understand the Truth in the writings, and Not according to Roman Doctrine ???


In the "Gospel of Thomas" it is written...

Quote;

39.
Jesus said,

“The Pharisees
and the Scribes
have taken
The Keys
of Knowledge
and Hidden Them.

They themselves
have NOT entered,
nor have they
allowed to enter
those who wish to.”

Hmmmm ???

[edit on 22-11-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


Your reply didn't have anything to do with my question, I'm kind of lost here. I never said anyone went to heaven now. I'm talking about in the end.

reply to post by jhill76

I am a scientific materialist. I am an atheist.

I agree with you: everything is predestined.

However, the verses you quote are more than well known--they are the foundation for a popular variant of Christian belief, namely Calvinism. Why post this here? What has Calvinist belief got to do with 'creationist conspiracies'?

The courses of our lives on Earth, which we think governed by a spurious free will, are in fact predestined. Concerning our status in a presumptive afterlife, I don't think anyone is qualified to speak of it--least of all the notable aka Saul of Tarsus, whose authenticity has always been, in my opinion, somewhat problematic.

If ATS had existed in the first century AD somebody would definitely have fingered Paul as a Roman disinformationist on a mission to suborn Christians.

reply to post by jhill76



It is also written....

In the Gospel of Thomas...

Quote;

51.
His disciple said to Him,

“When will the repose
of the dead come about,

and when
will the New World come?”

He said to them,

“What you look forward to
has already come,
but you do Not
recognise it.”

As for the Resurrection there were Two,
Two Thousand years ago.

These were;

The Saints who slept in the Ground, went into Jerusalem.....According to the bible ???

The Carpenter Raised by J.C.

This was why the Romans
Burnt and buried
Jerusalem and introduced
The Roman Church.

Jesus said when he would leave, "the Wicked One" would come
and deceive the Whole World,
which happened and is now history!

The Head of Prophesy was cut off in St. John....

That is According to the bible!

So Not sure what you expect, or are waiting for???

It has already Happened 2,0000 years ago.

Perhaps People still don't believe the Carpenter;

Expressed by the fact, that some people say he is yet to return.

But "The Son of Man" is "The Man Child" mentioned in The Revelation of J.C. that is born in the Soul and Not a human Primate a Descendent of A'Dam!

As for the end you speak of….

Also found in The Gospel of Thomas…

Quote;

18.

The disciples said to Jesus,

“Tell us how our end will be.”

Jesus said,

“Have you discovered, then,
the beginning,
that you look
for the end?

For where the beginning is,
there will the end be.

Blessed is he
who will take his place
in the beginning;

he will know the end
and will Not experience death.”

and.....

84.
Jesus said,

“When you See
your likeness,
you rejoice.

But when you
See Your Images,
which came into being
Before You,
and which Neither Die
Nor Become Manifest,

How Much You Will Have to Bear!”

And....

49.
Jesus said,

“Blessed are the Solitary and Elect,

for you will find The Kingdom.
For you are from it,
and to it
you will return.”

50.
Jesus said,

“If they say to you,

“Where did you come from?”

say to them,

“We came from The Light,
the place where The Light
came into being
on Its own accord
and established Itself
and became manifest

So YES, everything is Pre Created and Or Pre Destined.

You can't change One Iota i.e. anything in the World....(as the saying goes)



[edit on 22-11-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by jhill76
Ephesians 1:4-6
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

So, if we were chosen before Creation, does that mean those that are "true" Christians no matter what, in the end, they will go to heaven? Or, you can't find fault in the chosen because no fault will be in them.

Romans 8:29-30 declares: "For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (NASB).

Since the elect are going to heaven automatically. What does that say about the lost? So, are there some people on the Earth who are here just to be the opposite?

Point out to me in those verses where it says "goes to Heaven". I see that the predestined are : holy and blameless in His sight, to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ (in accordance with His pleasure and will), to be conformed to the image of His Son, that HE (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Okay... Where does it say "GO TO HEAVEN"?!

However, we do know that Jesus will rule the Millenial Kingdom. And that there will be another millential reign with the accuser let loose on the world again. And then after that all those that blasphemed the spirit, namely Satan, his fallen, and any who chose to not love God, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed permanently. Then, all the rest will live in the Ever After in either New Heaven and/or New Earth.

But, if you want to discern who is going to Heaven, if that is indeed the case that people will go to Heaven, you sure haven't shown evidence of that yet.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Okay, where are yall getting me saying they are going to heaven as a fact. That is why I stated a question.

reply to post by jhill76


You Quoted;

Ephesians 1:4-6
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

look with all due respect to you, the writings are NOT about The Flesh.

My point being.... The writings atre Not understood nor is J.C. understood by humankind.

The "I" or "You", has nothing at all to do with the human Primate.

The writings refer to the "Souls" Not the flesh!

It is Roman Doctrine, that tries to Fornicate with the Soul, and Claim that A'Dam is Man.


There are Three things involved...

a. Spirit.
b. Soul.
c. Flesh.

The Flesh is A'Dam.
The Soul is MAN
The Spirit is you The Entity that lives in the Soul.



In The Gospel of Thomas it is written...

Quote;

56.
Jesus said,

“Whoever has come
to understand the World

has found only a corpse,

and whoever
has found a corpse

is superior
to the World.”

A'Dam is NOT MAN!

It is Roman Doctrine and the Doctrine of the Descendants of A'Dam, that mixes these two to be as one.

GOD Created MAN[ in their Image.

It does NOT say God Created A'Dam in their Image.

GOD does NOT have Lungs and Breath Air! Like a human Primate.

If A'Dam was made in God's Image the A’Dam would Not have Died.

In The Gospel of Thomas it is written...

Quote;

85.

Jesus said,

“Adam came into being
from a great power
and a great wealth,

but he did not
become worthy
of you.

For had he been worthy,
he would not
have experienced
death.”

You see the whole problem is, that humankind does Not understand the writings and wants to fornicate with the Soul and tell God what God should mean, and Not ask God what the Truth is!

It is Quite Simple really...

a. The Flesh doesn't know anything at all.
Or your Hand and foot would know YOU exist!
But the Fact is, Not one component of your flesh knows YOU!

But on the Other hand YOU know your Flesh. ???

So the writings have nothing at all to do with your Flesh!

Even the Carpenter, had to be raised from the Dead by the Only Begotten Son of God.

The Carpenter did Not raise Him Self!


See The Gospel According to John... Ch. 2 Verse 19..

Quote;

Jesus answered and said to them,

"Destroy this Temple,
and in three days
I will raise it up."

What is the Temple, and what is the "I" that raised the temple???

a. The Temple is the Flesh.
b. The "I" is the Son of God, which you can Not kill or Murder.

So what is the point I am making???

The writings are about the "I", "Me" or "YOU".

And NOT the Flesh you falsely refer to as MAN.

Man is Not the Flesh... A'Dam is...

So for anyone to understand the writings at all must first understand the difference between MAN and A'Dam.

Soul & the Flesh...

But unfortunattely others want you to try and make A'Dam and his descendants to be MAN...

So to sum it all up, there is NO reward for the Flesh.

As for the Soul (Man) Not a single Soul is Lost! As the Saving of all Souls has already been achieved by J.C.

This is History now and Can Not be changed by the Flesh being only the descendants of A'Dam.


[edit on 22-11-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


I think before they can understand predestination, they have to understand how someone becomes elected in the first place. Like Jesus said, "I disclose my mysteries to those who are worthy of my mysteries" And, "Whover drinks from my mouth will become like me, and I myself will become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

We've spoken before, and so far you are the only other person on these boards, that I know of who understands who the Son of Man is. I know he has manifested himself to you but I don't recall you saying what precipitated the event itself? Myslef, I've never spoken directly about any of my experiences, just hinted at them but I know what precipitated all of it and it was repentance.

So I'm asking, was it just your lucky day or were you repenting?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

So I'm asking, was it just your lucky day or were you repenting?

Your Understanding of me correctly!

It is by repention. But if one is Not drawn by the Father it is impossible to repent!

But then What I have been shown of The All, outside the universe, that most are aware of is by Grace and by Grace alone, as I am the least of all, having put the flesh aside, Loving the world through understanding, thus Loving that which All has been Created through.
One can Love without Liking or Disliking.

As J.C. said through the Carpenter Love your Enemies....

True repention is Not by words of the Mouth, but by a TOTAL Conviction, putting aside all human understanding and Asking in Love for The Christ to Show us the Truth through The Man Child, no matter what happens to ones Self...

The Order...

a. Truth.
B. Knowledge
c. Understanding.
d. Wisdom.
e. Love.
f. Eternal Life.

The Greatest of these is Love.

What I have Listed is bidirectional.....

a. to e. From Below to Above

And e. to a. From Above to Below.

What we need to do, is make peace with The Life of God, the LIGHT of the World and ourselves.

If we only know the animal i.e. the descendant of A'Dam or the Primate then we are a slave to Sin but if we circumcise the Soul and put aside the flesh we are grafted in to the Vine again.

Eternal Life has always been but as you know it involves the Soul and Not the Primate.


[edit on 23-11-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]