How did we make Saddam

I hear a lot of people saying "Saddams a tyranical madman he must be stopped"

Heres rather a sobering article about his origins, and our involvement with him.

www.pepeace.org...

Once again the insane hypocracy of global politics rears its ugly head and bites the arse of the people of these countrys

Check out my topic for more evidence of the same.

He was the lesser of a 2 evils Lupe..ya we helped him come to power..Please dont act like this is some special circumstance..And it wont be the last one either..Almost every western country has give Iraq some sort of Aid or equipment over there years up to and including the French selling then a reactor..All i am gonna say is that if you are gonna point a finger..make sure it gets pointed at every one..

Boomslang

Not pointing the finger at anyone, simply trying to break away from this whole "SADDAM IS EVIL KILL KILL KILL" mentality that is retarding peoples ability to think straight about the issues surrounding this war.

How he came to power and whoever has helped him along the way doesn't change the fact that he is EVIL EVIL EVIL and needs to be taken out.

[Edited on 24-2-2003 by Shady]

Here are some reasons why Saddam is evil for those too stubborn to belive.

1.) Shot his health minister at a meeting.

2.) Murdered his son-in-laws

3.) Had a Shiite Muslim tossed into a vat of acid and watched him melt.

4.) In spring of 1991 had 330,000 Shiites and Kurds killed.

5.) Shot a Communist Party member.

6.) Tortured Jews accused of being Zionist spies.

7.) Gassed 5,000 Kurds in one village.

8.) Murderd many more innocents.

There are more, those are the ones I have written down. If a man who has done these things is not evil than what is?

I heard a stat on the radiio the other day.Saddam is believed to have killed between 800,000 to 1.5 million people.
Nobody "made"Saddam.He kills and tortures on his own.

Righto, let me remember the scenario and put it into perspective for you.

Saddam was abused and beaten by his step-father leaving deep emotional scarring.

At 12, Saddam was sent to live with his uncle in Baghdad, a fanatic Islamic extremist, whom he looked up to (transference). He was taught Islamic extremism and internalized that. It formed his perception of the world and coloured his beliefs about others, Israel & the U.S (Cognitive distortions).

Saddam joined the Baath Party and became a hired assassin to curry favour and climb the ranks. Saddam tried to assassinate the Iraqi President in 1958.

Because of Saddam�s family connections, he was welcomed into the new Baath Parties plans for a new government. It would appear that Saddam�s internalised hatred served him well and his own obsession to gain power and control fuelled him to bully (murder) his way into office as President.

Without repeating obviously facts and related posts threads, that�s basically it.

In many ways Saddam appears to be the product of his environment & upbringing. Why & how he has so much hatred and a willingness to deceive others for his own agenda remains his personal secret.

Saddam exhibits all the characteristic traits of a psychopath. He exhibits no remorse for his murders and torture. He appears to have no morality and sense of fair-play, nor what is right. His eyes are vacant, like a shark. His non-verbal language is dissociated and deflective of others adulation of him. His handshake is weak, demonstrating a lack of conviction and truth within himself.

As a psychotherapist, I would actually be willing to work with Mr. Hussein � but, I seriously doubt that he would ever benefit from that experience. He seems willing to distort reality to fit into his agendas. He rationalises the facts to configure with his distorted belief-system. If he were a prisoner, he would match all the clinical criteria for being a psychopath. In many ways, that makes him beyond the reach of conventional therapies. Perhaps hypnotherapy might help him � that�s left to conjecture.

Just a bit more food for your consideration & thought,
Deep

as a psychotherapist how do you feel about the amount of natural charisma that psychopaths like saddam, hitler, bin laden possibly all seem to possess?

They must have that special something as well to gain the followings they have/had.

I would suggest that the mind is very powerful.

If the mind truly believes something then it is capable of projecting very powerful and convincing arguments, and engendering a type of mass-hypnosis or hysteria among those listening.

Hitler for instance was trained in projective speaking techniques and mass hypnosis by an occult teacher in Germany. I've read that when Hitler was speaking, he was a totally different person from whom his inner staff knew him to be in reality. The contrast was dramatic and his staff was amazed at his transformation, they commented that after a speech he would come in timid and weak in personality.

Mr Bin Laden appears to have a ready made population ready for his message and looking for a charasmatic leader who will lead the Islamic belief in Jihad.

I believe that if anyone truly believes in something, then natural enthusiasm kicks in and their excitement & communication gifts are capable of transfering a sense of urgency and righteousness regarding that cause or belief-system to any group.

For instance whilst a practicing Christian, my zeal and enthusiasm convinced several gang members in central L.A. to accept Christ into their hearts. It would appear that they became emotionally carried away by my zeal and their own unmet desires for a better way of life fuelled them to making that committment.

Like the old saying - there are leaders, and there are followers.

Well, a bit more food for thought...
Deep

Originally posted by arc

They must have that special something as well to gain the followings they have/had.

Not especially.Because most of the men and women are allways ready to follow the bad way. If the peoples think that they " right ", they will do anything in the name of their leader(s).

It easy to indoctrinate the peoples mass.Take someone who's speaking like a " leader ", also some good slogans. Repeat your message and your slogan, again and again, speak about a (so-called) danger, a threat, and don't be afraid to use their fears about almost everything....Just in few weeks, a majority will follow you. And don't worry, you will not have to justify yourself, the peoples will do it for you.

And you'll earn the posterity. Even after many decades, many peoples are still seeing tyrants like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot....etc...like wonderfull peoples who were right.

I have read ,somewhere, something about the I.Q mass.

Take 120 peoples who have all a 120 I.Q. Unbelievable, but the I.Q mass will be 120/120 = ONE ! Less than a worm who has 2 like I.Q.

You know, it's not hard to have followers who will see you like a leader, EVEN if you're not really a good leader.

I totally agree with your point - it's why we have so many potentially dangerous people running our countries.

But I still think charisma comes into it somewhere. Face it there's a lot of people with the potential to become leaders, who fail. Sometimes these people have sound ideas, but fail to appeal to the masses.

However I'm not qualified in psychology

It doesn't take a brain surgeon, Lupe, to realize that when the U.S. was helping Saddam to power, it wa to counter other forces in the region at the time. It should also go into figuring that Saddam then was not understood to be the power-drunken sicko that he is now. It should also be understood that had all the weak-kneed liberals been heeded back a couple decades ago, the Soviet Union would still be impacting the world and the scene would be worse than it is now. There are still problems that have to be dealt with from the fight against the Soviet Empire, and that is the way it is. Never mind the world is a better place because we won, just make sure that you whiners throw stones at us because of the eggs that were broken to make the omelette you now enjoy.

[Edited on 25-2-2003 by Thomas Crowne]

"It doesn't take a brain surgeon, Lupe, to realize that when the U.S. was helping Saddam to power, it was to counter other forces in the region at the time."

Your talking about Iran I presume......question, why did we turn a blind eye to his genocide when he was at odds with our enemy, and now find his genocide unacceptable now our enemy is suppressed.

seems to me a clear case of subjective morality.

"It should also go into figuring that Saddam then was not understood to be the power-drunken sicko that he is now."

I beg to differ but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to nip onto the internet and dredge up reports of saddam murdering people before 1983, we simply didn't care at the time.

"It should also be understood that had all the weak-kneed liberals been heeded back a couple decades ago, the Soviet Union would still be impacting the world and the scene would be worse than it is now."

Of course, facist nazi gungho red necked racist arse heads would think that......(that is the opposite of a "week kneed liberal" isnt it, I mean this whole take back ATS thing does allow us to apply equally inflamatory and degrading descriptions to the detractors to our arguments)

"There are still problems that have to be dealt with from the fight against the Soviet Empire, and that is the way it is. Never mind the world is a better place because we won"

Sorry I don't see the world as being a much better place.....the west seems quite a bit richer.....the middle east, russia, china, hmmmmmm pretty much everyone we "won" against seems to be in a worse position....or are you suggesting the world refers to the borders of the US?

"just make sure that you whiners throw stones at us because of the eggs that were broken to make the omelette you now enjoy. "

Can you explain that metaphor please, it makes no sense.
Also, please don't muddy arguments by refering to opposing views as "whiners" or "week kneed liberals" remember, your trying to promote a new objective ATS where such petty childish and insignificant remarks are frowned upon in favour of analytical debate, you gung ho nazi facist red necked racist arse head.

Cheers.

[Edited on 25-2-2003 by Lupe_101]

"Saddam was abused and beaten by his step-father leaving deep emotional scarring."

"If the mind truly believes something then it is capable of projecting very powerful and convincing arguments, and engendering a type of mass-hypnosis or hysteria among those listening."


BINGO!!!