Time to abolish Affirmative Action

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak


I will wear your ignorant fool label proudly. Lest I ever be considered one of the flock on this opinion.

Affirmative action is as wrong as discrimination, it is the same ugly coin, and it's a wild flip.

Keep your pittance I shall earn my own.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
In The UK we call it positive discrimination. I for one actually believe it's a good thing. Women and ethnic minorities have suffered the policies of negative discrimination for centuries. some positive discrimination is good for helping to balance things up a bit.

There is no such thing as positive discrimination. All discrimination is negative.

How are things balanced when instead of discriminating women and blacks in favor of whites you start discriminating white males in favor of blacks and women? In fact, by discriminating the majority you're actually creating LESS balance than there was before.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
The world (and ATS) is dominated by white males.

Actually, ethnic Jews currently seem to hold more power over white males and seem to have largely replaced traditional European values with anti-European values. By implementing policies that discriminate white man, his position is only further weakening.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
I always like to hear the views of others and having a wider selection of views in society has to be a better thing?

Sure it is. Still, that's no excuse for discriminating white males.

Originally posted by Seiko
I will wear your ignorant fool label proudly. Lest I ever be considered one of the flock on this opinion

How is it even possible that women and blacks are still discriminated AGAINST, when there are all these politicies discriminating white men in favor of women and blacks (including in prominent colleges). In fact, they even lowered the level of education in favor of a so-called "equallity" logic.

Why is it so hard to accept that blacks still earning less is the consequence of their lower average intelligence? Why is it so hard to accept that most women prefer to focus on their family rather than working 10 hours a day to get to run their own department at the office?

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak


Please cite your sources.

Women earn less then men

I'll start by listing one here. The gap has narrowed but it is still there.

Originally posted by Seiko
Please cite your sources.

For studies on the differences in intelligence between difference races, read eg. Rushton's Race, Evolution, and Behavior, Jensen's The g Factor or Herrnstein's The Bell Curve.

I'm not sure about any particular studies on the preference of women to choose family over career, however there must exist some works in psychology on this topic. It seems pretty self-evident to me merely by observing the differences between men and women I meet in real life.

Originally posted by Seiko
Women earn less then men

I'll start by listing one here. The gap has narrowed but it is still there.

The problem with studies like these is that they ONLY look at wage and gender and never prove a correlation. Without knowing details on eg. hours worked overtime, this type of studies are useless as these differences could just as well be created by men investing more time in their career than women (as women tend to focus on their family first).

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak

I'm not sure about any particular studies on the preference of women to choose family over career, however there must exist some works in psychology on this topic. It seems pretty self-evident to me merely by observing the differences between men and women I meet in real life.

You said this, but then followed with this:

Without knowing details on eg. hours worked overtime, this type of studies are useless as these differences could just as well be created by men investing more time in their career than women (as women tend to focus on their family first).

Could you kindly clarify this as I'm not following. You seem to state you are not sure, and then follow it with an assertion about something. Are you not sure that women pick family first and that is why they earn less, or are you certain of this from your observations on society?

I did look at the two books and the wiki article about the third. Do you have any links to a scientific backing explaining how whites are intellectually superior to blacks and so therefore should earn more? Whilst the books are interesting they are the opinion of their respective authors and should not be taken or proffered as scientific fact.

I don't happen to own these books so if they do indeed contain such studies can you link to them online or offer an outline to assist here?

Try this study equal pay for equal work?

Originally posted by Seiko
Could you kindly clarify this as I'm not following. You seem to state you are not sure, and then follow it with an assertion about something. Are you not sure that women pick family first and that is why they earn less, or are you certain of this from your observations on society?

I'm certain of this from my observation on society. I have no doubts there are some studies confirming this, but I have to admit I never bothered to look for them since this is self-evident IMO.

Originally posted by Seiko
I did look at the two books and the wiki article about the third. Do you have any links to a scientific backing explaining how whites are intellectually superior to blacks and so therefore should earn more? Whilst the books are interesting they are the opinion of their respective authors and should not be taken or proffered as scientific fact.

All the books are based on scientific studies and not just unfounded opinions.

Basically, the studies show that blacks are superior to whites and white superior to East-Asians in terms of physical capabilities, whereas East-Asians are superior to whites and whites are superior to blacks in intellectual capacities. The cause of these differences is evolutionary. For example, black Africans are less developed mentally because for thousands of years they had enough food and water not to need any cultural development to survive, whereas people in Northern-Europe could not afford that luxury.

Originally posted by Seiko
I don't happen to own these books so if they do indeed contain such studies can you link to them online or offer an outline to assist here?

Check out an abridged version of Rushton's work on PDF. I own a copy of both the abridged and unabridged version, btw.

Originally posted by Seiko
Try this study equal pay for equal work?

An article clearly dedicated not to substance but to confirming the myth of discriination of women. Again, I fail to see any indication that women doing the same jobs as men are not paid less because they work less hard (eg. do less overhours) for reasons explained hereabove.

[edit on 20/11/09 by PC equals Newspeak]

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak

All the books are based on scientific studies and not just unfounded opinions.

Again, which studies?

I can't comment on them because I've no idea which ones. I'd like to see these studies.

edit to add the definition of a thesis, I hope this helps.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Seiko]

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak


This article spoke of equal jobs. That is what you asked for.

And yes they are articles and studies, but not scientific so I did not claim they were. They are however conducting that more in depth study now.

Originally posted by Seiko

All the books are based on scientific studies and not just unfounded opinions.

Again, which studies?

The three books in question ARE the published studies of scientists.

Originally posted by Seiko
I can't comment on them because I've no idea which ones. I'd like to see these studies.

Start with the link to Rushton's abridged work and move on from there. I'm sure you don't need me to do all of your research.

Originally posted by Seiko
This article spoke of equal jobs. That is what you asked for.

When they speak of equal jobs, they're referring to jobs with the same job title. It doesn't mean they work all in the same company, do just as many hours or have as much responsibility.

How old are you? You sound like someone not old enough to have worked in an office yet....

Originally posted by Seiko
And yes they are articles and studies, but not scientific so I did not claim they were. They are however conducting that more in depth study now.

Studies on the supposed discrimination of women and blacks were already done in large number in Stanford during the second half of the '80s (the book "The Diversity Myth" deals with that topic) and became popular in other colleges as well. If there really was any evidence for those claims, it would have been found years ago.

I think we should terminate allllllllllllllll the s***** these F****** get like welfare, ummmm special grants and aid for school, ummm let me see free housing, what else free food, free electric, alll their special "Priveleges " should be ripped out from their grasp Like where the hell is my help when I need it? NADA. I get nothing but red tape, they (The US government and the NAACP) can KISS MY A****!!!! Granted I know they are not the only ones who recieve welfare and food stamps, but they are the majority, and the majority of those that do have never worked a real day in their life unlike us, who bust our A** In the rat race then when we need help they turn their backs on us ( the US government), and no drug deaaling does not count as work!!!!!!!!! NO they'd rather give my taxes I paid to raise 10 mexican or black babies instead of helping me with my mere three children!!!!!!!


This country sucks! And I am not trying to be racist it is what it is reverse racism is going on, that's the reality of life her if you're white and have any intelligence, then nobody wants to help you out. It should be equal...if they can get help, then I should get help, if I can't get help, then NOBODY should...fairness is all that I'm asking for, but that will never happen!

[edit on 20-11-2009 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by ldyserenity]

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak


No the books you linked to are Thesis. I was kind enough to add a link to a definition for you above.

Please add a link to a scientific factual study proving this theory. Either that or you're just stating opinion.

Here's my opinion, you're wrong. See that was easy. I can now write a paper explaining why I believe it to be so. I might even include some facts. Would that convince you? If the answer is no, you'll understand why I'm asking for these proofs. I await seeing them, thank you.

Originally posted by Seiko
No the books you linked to are Thesis.

A scientific thesis or dissertation is the publication of a scientific study for the purpose of gaining an academic title. Now you sound like someone who's never even been to college.

Anyway, where did you pick up that label?

Originally posted by Seiko
Please add a link to a scientific factual study proving this theory. Either that or you're just stating opinion.

I did refer to 3 studies (one with a link to an abridged version) that you prefer to simply ignore.

Originally posted by Seiko
Here's my opinion, you're wrong. See that was easy.

Ignoring facts is easy indeed. It only proves your prejudice and unwillingness to look at the facts.

Originally posted by Seiko
I can now write a paper explaining why I believe it to be so. I might even include some facts. Would that convince you?

If you think you have solid evidence to refute the findings proven by the studies I mentioned, feel free to provide it. I'm openminded, unlike yourself.

I'm not refuting anything I'm asking for a link to a scientific study, not an opinion book. When you figure out the difference we can go further here. With that lacking there's not much more to say here.

Originally posted by Seiko
I'm not refuting anything I'm asking for a link to a scientific study, not an opinion book.

I referended 3 studies and linked to the abridged version of one. Your unwillingness to consider these studies seems indicative of malintent.

Originally posted by Seiko
When you figure out the difference we can go further here. With that lacking there's not much more to say here.

When I figure out the differences? You're the one ignoring scientific studies and falsely accusing them of being "opinion books" without even reading them.

reply to post by PC equals Newspeak


You are referencing books, that are presented using the very word "thesis". A thesis does not belay scientific fact. You may agree with the opinion but that does not make it a fact.

Please present a fact, a scientific study proving these opinions. If you can not they are opinions, and you can't keep repeating them ad nauseum as fact because it won't make it true.

Originally posted by Seiko
You are referencing books, that are presented using the very word "thesis". A thesis does not belay scientific fact.

A scientific thesis is the same as a scientific theory. Both reference to conclusions of studies and not just unfounded assumptions, which you would know if you understood anything about the way science is done at universities.

Originally posted by Seiko
Please present a fact, a scientific study proving these opinions.

I DID

Your ignorance about the meaning of words like "thesis" or "theory" doesn't change the fact that these studies were actual scientific studies and not just someone's personal opinion. Maybe you should read the G**damn books first before telling such nonsense.

Oh, and you haven't answered my questions regarding your age, which probably confirms my suspicions you aren't even at a college age yet.

What I'm saying is plain and simple as well as what seiko is saying, that Affirmative action, detracts from full equality, if we have full equality, everybody should have equal opportunity for a job, skin color or gender should have no part in it. ANyway when they hire the woman because of affirmative action, they're not only reaping the benefits of tax breaks they're also benifitting by most likely being able to pay us less, and get away with it because we will unlikely fight for higher pay(thinking we're lucky to get the job because the company needed to meet some quota). If given equal rights we'd get the job BASED on MERIT and be paid equally I believe.

thesis

fact

scientific study

Race, Evolution, and Behavior: A Life History Perspective is a controversial book written by J. Philippe Rushton, a professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, and the current head of the Pioneer fund. Rushton argues that race is a valid biological concept and that racial differences frequently arrange in a continuum of Mongoloids (Orientals, East Asians) at one extreme, Negroids (blacks, Africans) at the opposite extreme, and Caucasoids (whites, Europeans) in the middle.

The book "argues" it does not prove. I am asking for "proof". It's an interesting opinion, a hypothesis. If the book is so inundated with scientific fact and studies, please present one here.