Intelligent Universe Theory

I have a few problems with the two mainstream thoughts of where our universe came from. Those being:

Supernatural Deity
Big Bang Theory

I'm currently unaware of any other theories, but I'm attempting to work on a new theory that might in some weird messed up sick twisted way, reconcile these to mainstream thought. I'm still in the early stages of work, trying to flesh it out, but I was wondering what people's initial opinions would be and if anyone could further help advance the theory along quicker with me.


I'll concede to the fact that many mythologies from around the world do 'seem to agree' on certain aspects of creation and cataclysmic catastrophes such as a cosmic egg and flood and the creation of mankind and that some ultimate deity gave birth to the entire universe. What I propose is that all these different theories that seem to disagree with each other, don't disagree at all but instead hold certain minuscule amounts of truth to them. We base both current mainstream idea's on a lot of assumptions and without those assumptions being true those ideas quickly dissolve into nothing. If we can just discard those assumptions and work with the mythologies (events our ancestor considered history) and some different theories that seem to work in place of current mainstream theories, then perhaps we can develop a true model of the universe and it's beginnings.

I don't have much to throw out there just yet, but my current line of thinking is that the universe certainly *has always existed*, just not as what we see today. If quantum mechanics can accurately describe thing's on a small scale, then this *might* work. What I propose is that the religious folks are correct, the universe was created, but that creator is no dead. Some small quantum fundamental force coalesced into a different state of 'matter' and from that arose a non-organic intelligence that could have used a similar process that we use called biofeedback to control different aspects of itself allowing it to further condense itself into a different state of 'matter' that gave rise plasma cosmology. From there, the universe formed accordingly to how plasma physics dictates that plasmas should behave.

I don't know, I'm tired and just thinking out loud lol. Figured I'd throw this out there and see if anyone can drop any thoughts of their own to help flesh it out a bit.

Some thing's I'm thinking about also, the age of the universe is wrong, I say this because I don't think light is an accurate measure of velocity and distance between galaxies nor do the calculations involved take into account the net gravitational force of galaxies exerting an effect on the speed of light. The pioneer probes from what I heard are experiencing an acceleration towards the sun, which should be no surprise if one takes into account the entire gravitational effect of the whole solar system and not just the gravitational effect of the sun alone.

Other thing I was thinking about, if there is some sort of truth to the expanding earth theory, which honestly after reviewing the two theories, that being expanding earth and plate tectonics, both could be accurate to a point and allow for a younger earth. Truth is, we can't actually date a rock, so any estimated ages obtained from dating may be wrong. There are many problems from what I read for radiometric dating of rocks and the age of the earth is assumed by the dating of rocks.

I also enjoyed reading Immanuel Velikovsky’s theories which lead me to even conceive of all this. You can read about his theories at www.varchive.org... If he's right or close to right, then history certainly does need a rewrite as well as the current model of our universe and it's birth. We talk about creating artificial intelligence all the time now and are starting to work on quantum computers, but what if this already occurred naturally at some distant point in history and the natural quantum computer gave up itself through it's own destruction to give rise to our universe?

You're just setting people up to get punk'd, aren't you, Sirnex? Admit it!

I see no reason to attribute intelligence to the universe, much less to attribute the universe's existence to a creator, dead or no.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
You're just setting people up to get punk'd, aren't you, Sirnex? Admit it!

I see no reason to attribute intelligence to the universe, much less to attribute the universe's existence to a creator, dead or no.

When I get tired I tend to think crazy thing's. This is somewhat of a mental exercise to see if we can flesh out a different workable model for the universe that takes into account a variety of different thing's currently held as mythological or anomalous. Kind of like a what if scenario. I don't believe in a personal God, but we do have to concede that everything had to have come from something. I would imagine that something to be some sort of quantum fluid that condensed into different states that behaves accordingly to plasma physics. We've observed inorganic dust taking on life like traits such as reproduction and evolution, so one could reason that perhaps some unknown process could lead to this denser condensed quantum fluid to take on some life of it's own at some point.

It's just a thought, a mental exercise to flex the old brain back into shape. You should have seen some of my notes from when I was a teenager, that stuff was way out there it would scare anyone lol.

I think the "Vertical Theory" of quantum physics, which states that each universe is enclosed within another universe in a "higher dimension," is the most accurate description of all of "reality." This would fit well with Hidden_Hand's description of "step-down" creation.

According to Einstein, two observers of the same events can see them in a different order, depending on the frame of reference. In other words, what seems to be two sequential events(which we can name present and future), from our point of view, can appear to be simultaneous to an observer standing "outside of our universe." In other words, it's entirely possible that our future(or every possibility of it) has already happened, simultaneously with our past and present. We see it in a sequential order, only because we're in the frame of reference of being within the universe.

This means that 14 billion years to us might seem instantaneous to someone in a higher dimension, and 14 billion years to someone in that dimension might seem instantaneous to someone from the next higher dimension, and so on. Right now we are all just living off that one instance from "someone's thought" from the highest dimension, which according to Hidden_Hand, can be called Intelligent Infinity.

reply to post by np6888


What I'm hoping to accomplish with this is to discard current theories and the assumptions their based off of. I don't think Einstein is one-hundred percent correct in his theories either, I have a few problems with him. What I'm trying to work out is a one universe theory that doesn't assume infinite regressions of multiple universes. Basically, let's start from the ground up and work from there.

One thing I noticed as well, plasmas at either the very coldest or highest temperature act as near perfect fluids, so what if we take thing's a step further temperature wise, would we end up with a perfect quantum fluid?

I was playing with the states of matter chart:


I found that if you place this onto a figure eight, the symbol that denotes infinity, we can see that solid matter is at the exact center with the near perfect fluid condensing from the hot side and the near perfect fluid crystallizing from the cold side.

My thoughts are rather scattered right now, I'm going to head to bed and put more thought into it in the morning.

Since something can't come from nothing as far as we know, then let's assume something has always existed, the entire universe has always existed in different states through out it's history, is finite, but larger than what we can currently observe.

I was reading something about Ray Kurzweil and Fred Hoyle, they proposed that since the universe is perfectly suited for life, then possibly at some future point in the history of a universe, life evolves to become masters of the universe, able to control the distribution of matter and before the universes destruction, this super-intelligent life gave rise to a new universe perfectly suited for the evolution of new intelligent life. I wish to do away with that line of thinking and propose that intelligence arose within non organic life living in a perfect quantum fluid.

We know that atomic matter is composed of smaller matter called quarks and gluon and string theory proposes that those are made of smaller bits of vibrating strings of quantum nature. Let's suppose that at it's lowest energy state that all matter takes on the form of a perfect quantum fluid, the firmament. Out of this firmament, some chaotic quantum disturbance occurred that gave rise to a form of quantum life that eventually evolved into intelligence. A lot of mythologies state that the Gods came from a dark chaotic void and gave rise to the universe. So let's assume that is true, but not in the supernatural sense.

We observe plasmas exhibiting life like traits, so it shouldn't be too hard to reason that these quantum life forms did exist. Many mythologies discuss the 'genealogy' of the Gods as if they were actual living entities, so if we role with that as if it were true, we can deduce that these life forms evolved from the chaotic disturbance of the perfect quantum fluid, eventually reached intelligence and then created a more condensed state of matter.

As they evolved they developed intelligence, perhaps at some point their quantum world was coming to an end and they calculated the exact vibrational energies required to give rise to a more condensed form of matter that would take longer to reach it's lowest vibrational state of equilibrium. The mythologies all state that the Gods created man in it's image, let's suppose that this image wasn't form, but was state of intelligence. Let's suppose that these intelligent beings, however many were left during the destruction of their state of being decided that intelligence was to precious to disappear altogether. So two or more of these quantum being collided with enough force and energy to condense their quantum states into matter.

We know or theorize that quarks can come together to form different exotic states of matter, one that springs to mind is the strangelet. This state of matter, if it ever came in contact with our state of matter would lead to a 'dead' universe. The quantum beings realized that a universe with intelligent life would require matter in a specific state and so calculated how to give rise to this specific state and did so in order to perpetuate the length of intelligent beings. We were created in their image, meaning the universe was created specifically to give rise to more intelligent life.

Now, let's suppose that an advanced civilization did exist and already developed this theory and through various cataclysmic destruction this theory became deified just as the planets and cosmic cataclysms became deified. So, the notion of God(s) comes from the theory of quantum life giving rise to a different state of matter that lasts longer allowing for intelligence (in our image) to last longer than they would have. And then these cataclysms are a different mythology showing the history of the solar systems birth, much different than what current science proposes.

I was also thinking, what if the age through radiometric dating is wrong and what we're dating is the decaying matter from the nova that led to the birth of our solar system. If the expanding earth theory has a slight amount of truth to it and the solar system had a chaotic birth, then all matter would have came from the star that exploded X amount of years ago.

Just some more ideas to throw out there, hoping someone will take a bite and help out with this mental exercise and see if we can develop something more plausible and concrete.

Ok science doesent really know what caused the universe to come into existence but there is a damn good theory out there and its one i agree with. heres a link

cyclic universe

So, the many mythologies stating that the Gods spoke the universe into being can be more akin to something similar to brane theory, where these Gods created a vibrational wave that condensed their state of matter into a different state, our state, allowing the universe to evolve from there on out.

If we can theorize all these different thing's, then why can't we allow for some form of quantum intelligence intentionally giving rise to a state of matter that would allow a multitude of intelligent beings to live?

I was also thinking, the cosmic background radiation could be diffused light from a larger structure/distribution of matter beyond our visible capacity with current technologies. So, instead of this being evidence of a big bang, it's more or less likely evidence of a larger universe and the CMB being a map of matter distribution at those larger distances.

reply to post by sirnex


The universe was created from outside of itself.

The universe is the combination of all the physical energy that exists.

Therefore, anything that you could consider physical in any way, shape, or form could not have created the universe.

If you have a problem understanding that the universe was created from without the universe, by something without a physical property, then just try to imagine death.

A physicist will never be able to tell you how the universe got here, but only what state it has been in since it existed; and even then, barely.

reply to post by loner007


The cyclic theory in my opinion isn't good enough. It doesn't explicitly state how our state of matter arose, it just assumes it always existed despite other possible state of matter being equally able to exist. So, why this specific state of matter that allows for life? How does that arise instead of a universe filled with strangelets?

So, I'm saying, let's assume that's wrong and develop a new theory that postulates that the mythologies of creation are correct scientific theories developed by some hypothetical civilization that existed two million years ago and this theory became deified through some remembrance of some cosmic cataclysm which also became deified and led to the different world religions.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
reply to post by sirnex

 

The universe was created from outside of itself.

The universe is the combination of all the physical energy that exists.

Therefore, anything that you could consider physical in any way, shape, or form could not have created the universe.

If you have a problem understanding that the universe was created from without the universe, by something without a physical property, then just try to imagine death.

A physicist will never be able to tell you how the universe got here, but only what state it has been in since it existed; and even then, barely.

Without showing a mechanism for how this can occur, we can't assume it to be true. All mythologies discuss a chaotic birth of the Gods and the Gods creating the world through a separation of the firmament, leading me to assume that matter existed in different states. So, the Gods existing in a different state of matter gave rise to our state of matter allowing intelligence to exist longer than what would be allowed by the state of matter they evolved from.

reply to post by sirnex


straight away i can see you hadnt read it

It doesn't explicitly state how our state of matter arose, it just assumes it always existed despite other possible state of matter being equally able to exist

The new model offers a streamlined alternative. It treats the Big Bang not as the true moment of creation, but as a transition between two cycles in an endless process of cosmological rebirth.


According to the model, the Big Bang is followed by a period of slow expansion and gradual accumulation of dark energy. As dark energy becomes dominant, it stimulates cosmic acceleration. The current era is near the transition between these stages, Steinhardt said.

Cosmic Crunch

As accelerated expansion proceeds over trillions of years, matter and energy are gradually stretched thin across the universe.

Eventually, matter, radiation, and even black holes become so stretched out that they are dissipated to almost nothing, leaving behind a massive universe that is virtually empty, Steinhardt explained.

At this point in the cycle, particles of matter are so far apart—and moving away from each other so rapidly—that they cannot interact and are effectively separated into distinct universes.

Steinhardt and Turok call this vacuum-like stage the "big crunch." The vacuum triggers dark energy to materialize into matter and radiation in another Big Bang, refreshing the cycle of expansion.

Other scientists are intrigued by the new model, but it hasn't won them over yet

the above from link i provided

Now there is more to this theory than there is posted . National Geographic did a documentary on this but i cant seem to find it

[edit on 17-11-2009 by loner007]

reply to post by loner007


So essentially, the cyclic model requires the assumed existence of dark matter to exist despite dark matter not having been proven to exist as of yet. All we know of dark matter/energy right now is that it is a needed invention required to make the current standard model work with what is observed and known about the universe. Without this assumed invention we can't explain the universe with the current standard model. Nor do I subscribe to dark matter/energy due to the nature of it's required invention instead of it's explicit observation.

Let's assume something here...

Firmament = Perfect Quantum Fluid like field of energy in perfect equilibrium.

We know plasmas behave as a near perfect fluid flowing almost free of any viscosity. If we take matter and break it down into it's most fundamental constituent parts at the lowest state possible, perhaps this state in perfect equilibrium would behave as a perfect fluid absolutely free of any viscosity.

These quantum life forms could form in a similar manner that we observe plasmas taking on attributes of life like qualities, reproducing and evolving. Since these quantum life forms are quantum in nature it might be possible for them to equally exist in the same manner that dense plasma fields exhibit this quality of 'life'.

We don't really have a clear cut idea of what life is or how to explicitly define it and we can observe non-organic matter exhibiting life like traits. If we deduce that some unknown thing happened that led to this perfect quantum fluid to condense into a different state of matter, then this new state could take on life like attributes of it's own leading to a sort of chain effect that ultimately led to the evolution of an intelligent species existing in a different state of matter.

We know that different states of matter can exist in different combination of quark-gluon arrangements, so if this is true, which physics appears to say it is true, then there is no rhyme or reason for why our state of matter formed and not other states of matter to form that would not lead to intelligent life but should equally exist as the laws of physics shows that they should or could exist.

It could be possible that these different states never arose because of some intelligence intentionally setting up the required energies to condense this firmament into our state of matter. We have no workable mechanism that I can see for where our state of matter has come from nor why it even exists instead of different states of matter that can equally exist. If we can theorize that at some future point we become the masters of the universe and intentionally give rise to a rebirth of the universe, then we should be able to equally theorize the possibility of different states of matter existing that gave rise to intelligence that further condensed into the required matter that would lead to a more stable form of intelligent life. Like the religions of the world say, we were created in God(s)'s image *intelligence and from the same fundamental stuff of the universe*.

In my opinion, the universe might possibly be younger than we think and it is just now starting to come into a more steady equilibrium and these cataclysms that many religions discuss is the passed down memory from earlier iterations of human form through evolution. The memory of giants could be a memory of when we were homo erectus/habilis living alongside a larger upright primate millions of years ago. The universe may be larger than we know, but younger than we realize. Just some more ideas to throw out there.

I've been watching a documentary today through my XBOX called 'Becoming Human', in this documentary it talks about a possible scenario for how humans evolved intelligence and from there how we evolved into our current human form. It discusses how Homo Erectus was an intelligent tool user and how through successive cataclysmic changes in the climate of where our lineage from this species developed is what led to the adaptive changes that created us.

So I was thinking, could these mythologies that discuss cataclysmic catastrophes and different forms of man be past memories of different iterations of human evolutionary form that arise during each cataclysmic change in climate? These cataclysms were successive cycles of drought and wet periods and these myths mention destruction of fire and water.

Just thought it was interesting and decided to mention it. If Homo Erectus was intelligent enough to use tools and fire then he was probably intelligent enough to have language and pass down knowledge to new generations and these myths from Homo Erectus became our religions today.

god came down spoke to the few "chosen" ones worthy

gave us commandments to live by or else suffer in hell forever

ok i got that part down

what i don't get is

why he'd do that and tell us to believe in him etc yet all of a sudden he is acting shy?

rofl?

incoming "its a test" etc

none of that makes sense tbh

if he wanted us to worship him and follow him he'd make his presence known

hell he'd appear as a face on the sky saying Hello every morning
or something along the lines

fact is blindly following something which has NO PROOF isn't faith

its being a simple minded tool doing what people around you tell you too


what if some guy thousands of years ago told his followers god demanded he cut off his penis

lol owait...


but what i'm trying to say is simple

MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND

don't follow anything just cause ya parents or some dude 3 thousand years ago said it was true


IF jesus was infact able to heal the sick cure the blind etc

do you honestly believe a single person would of doubted him?

fact is it's folklore people prolly met a nice guy saying some nice things and his followers told people he could do anything possible


whos to say jesus wasn't just some insane dude 2000 years ago who actually believed he was the son of god


as far as the whole bush on fire hearing voices etc

when people say they see these things now a days we call them crazy

but for some reason if it happened to people thousands of years ago they were somehow not?


use ya brain and stop living in a state of denile if god existed and wanted us to follow him he'd make damn sure we all knew he existed

to say people thousands of years ago were somehow saints and the people today aren't is insane and frankly put RETARDED

try to not be so ignorant........if god is the creator and ultimate being of light

why would he allow so many men to kill in his name or allow so much suffering

cause he has a plan? rofl biggest cop out i ever heard


thats the type of stuff you say when you know deep down you can't answer it


if god is real he really doesn't give a # about any of us or else he'd step in and stop 1/3rd of the world from straving to death

no wait i'm sure thats part of his plan too right? to put souls on this planet just to suffer?

sounds like a real swell fella to be around.



if god is real if there is a ultimate being

he doesn't care about us.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by Gakus]

[edit on 4-12-2009 by Gakus]