Deut 25:2-3: Bible demands 40 lashes for sinning believers!!!

Many Christian parents would refer to the Old Testament's Proverbs to justify corporal punishment on their kids (especially sons).
Perhaps Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with a rod and deliver his soul from hell".
But, adult transgression must also be punished with whipping. The Bible is clear.
It says so in Deut 25: 2-3.
40 Lashes will cleanse the soul of an adult sinner.
So why do we just see chastisemnt of children, and child abuse in religion? Adults who have sinned should submit to 40 lashes, or they should never mention the Old Testament again.

reply to post by halfoldman


For the old testament this is actually fairly mild. 40 lashes would be better then stoned to death I guess.

Jesus said their hearts were hard.

reply to post by Seiko

Either transgressing evangelists take 40 lashes on the bared back, or we shall know them as fakes.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Many Christian parents would refer to the Old Testament's Proverbs to justify corporal punishment on their kids (especially sons).
Perhaps Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with a rod and deliver his soul from hell".
But, adult transgression must also be punished with whipping. The Bible is clear.
It says so in Deut 25: 2-3.
40 Lashes will cleanse the soul of an adult sinner.
So why do we just see chastisemnt of children, and child abuse in religion? Adults who have sinned should submit to 40 lashes, or they should never mention the Old Testament again.

Context - context - context

These instructions were given specifically within a covenant with Israel.
They had been slaves in Eygpt for about four hundred years...
...and knew little authority other than the whip.

They were suddenly free and like children needed rules and regulations.

The laws that were given through Moses to govern Israel were a very clever piece of social engineering that effectively cacooned Israel from social and genetic pollution...
...and have preserved their identity even without land or country for over 3500 years.

But the laws served their purpose and were never meant for nations other than Israel.



[edit on 15-11-2009 by troubleshooter]

Those punishments were there to show the severity of sin in G-ds eyes; if you do this, you die, if you do that you die. In other words it was a light to show what sin is, and the punishments "in the flesh" were an example of what would happen to you "in the spirit", that the spirit that sins shall die. Severe yes, but the eternal ramifications are even more severe.
The law not only shone a light on to what sin is, but also acted as a band aid that put a block on peoples behaviour so that they would not go the way of the other ancient civilisations where all that is left of them is a few pots and coins, dug up by archeologists. The fact the the jews are still a people and a nation today is a pure testiment to the band aid that the law was. The 10 commandements however are different to the law in terms of the law shows what sin is, but the commandments keep its effects at bay. The commandments boil down, love G-d, love each other.
As stated, the law was a band aid, but it also pointed to the permanant cure that came through Yeshua's attonement on the cross.
The law was wrote on stone tablets, hence temporary and breakable, but throgh Yeshua the commandments are written on our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Its a bit like G-d downloading Himself into you, taking away the corrupted information, and implanting healthy information. And that combined with Yeshua's blood attonement, His blood stands in your defence like your immune system, and stops you being reinfected by the virus of sin.
The wages of sin is death. Life comes through the Son., the cure to sin.

reply to post by halfoldman


TROUBLESHOOTER nailed you on that one. I am a person who studies the bible and I can easily see where your argument breaks down. Star for TS !

( I'll never forget that day, Moses said to the people, "I give you these fifteen CRASH! - Ten.. Ten Commandants!" ) Kidding!





[edit on 15-11-2009 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by Selahobed
Those punishments were there to show the severity of sin in G-ds eyes; if you do this, you die, if you do that you die. In other words it was a light to show what sin is, and the punishments "in the flesh" were an example of what would happen to you "in the spirit", that the spirit that sins shall die. Severe yes, but the eternal ramifications are even more severe.
The law not only shone a light on to what sin is, but also acted as a band aid that put a block on peoples behaviour so that they would not go the way of the other ancient civilisations where all that is left of them is a few pots and coins, dug up by archeologists. The fact the the jews are still a people and a nation today is a pure testiment to the band aid that the law was. The 10 commandements however are different to the law in terms of the law shows what sin is, but the commandments keep its effects at bay. The commandments boil down, love G-d, love each other.
As stated, the law was a band aid, but it also pointed to the permanant cure that came through Yeshua's attonement on the cross.
The law was wrote on stone tablets, hence temporary and breakable, but throgh Yeshua the commandments are written on our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Its a bit like G-d downloading Himself into you, taking away the corrupted information, and implanting healthy information. And that combined with Yeshua's blood attonement, His blood stands in your defence like your immune system, and stops you being reinfected by the virus of sin.
The wages of sin is death. Life comes through the Son., the cure to sin.

A nice extrapolation. However, at points I don't know where you get any of this at all? Whether all Jews today are the Biblical tribes is another story: consider that the Hassidics believe in reincarnation (like me), and none of this "hell" softens our "hell' in the after-life idea. That is actually very Islamic. The Koran teaches that lashes on earth soften the punishment in the afterlife. You are teaching Islam!
Band-aids, immune systems, "healthy information" - are you a nurse?
My entanglement is with normal Christians who use the Old Testament literally when it suits them (against homosexuality), but not when tradition prohibits it (the real Sabbath, not eating shellfish, polygamy, concubines).
Any evangelist who has sinned should either drop the entire Old Testament, or submit to 40 lashes in public!!!!

reply to post by halfoldman


No im not a nurse, just using metaphors to get my point across.
The law was meant to be harsh and impossible to keep. Basically it was meant to make you "despair" at trying to "save" your self, because in the end of the day, if the whole worlds population had been given the law, there would be no flipping animals left with which you would have to sacrifice to atone for your sins!
Like G-d showed abraham when he was told to sacrifice his son, and G-d stopped him, he wasnt testing him but showing him his plan; that G-d would provide His own sacrifice, which in this occassion He also did by a lamb that was stuck by its horns in some thorns. A bit like Yeshua, being the Lamb of G-d, who also had a crown of thorns...
Yeshua took the whole law on Himself; from having a dubious birth (a bastard cannot enter the assmbley of israel) to "cursed is He who dies on a tree," which i guess they would have been confused about because crucifiction had not even been invented yet! So from begining to end, Yeshua took the whole law of sin on Himself, thus fullfilling the Law. He also amplified the law too in His saying which was a lot harsher than anything in the OT! E.g. "It is said, 'though shall not commit murder,' BUT I SAY if you have hatred for you brother, then you have already commited murder in your heart." Yeshua is a lot tougher on sin than the law, because the law is works based. Yeshua judges your heart, not your actions! Tougher indeed! And another example of making you despair of trying to save yourself.

Edit to add: I cant stand those christians who bash everyone either. Who condem homosexuality, then comit adultery, running off with someone elses wife/husband. In G-ds eyes they are both the same, sin is sin. We are called to love folks, and not to judge them. No amount of righteousness was ever produced through condemnation.

[edit on 103030p://f27Sunday by Selahobed]

reply to post by Selahobed

firstly, I think I came on a bit strongly, and my apologies for that. The abuse of children based on the Old Testament has just always irked me.
It is difficult to define "believers" in any religion, since there are so many views and factions.
I think you have made your position quite clear: it is not acceptable to selectively bash anyone with the OT. You put the OT into a historical context that makes sense to you (although many would consider it evangelical revisionism), and well done.
I was also hoping to hear from those Christians who do justify, particularly corporal punishment, according to the OT.
The references do not end with the Biblical tribes. In the days of slavery in Cape Town (South Africa) slaves could be sentenced to 39 lashes. The fear was that if one lash was wrongly counted over 40, then the curse of God rested on the person performing the lashing - hence 39 lashes were meant to prevent the human error of an extra lash. So the tract was taken very literally, and propably may still be in other Abrahamic faiths.
It probably fell into disuse with the general banning of adult judicial and penal flogging (in the US possibly as late as the 1960s?).

reply to post by Selahobed

Incidentally, the tract makes me wonder on the significance of the number forty throughout the Bible, apart from the 40 lashes, we have 40 years of wandering in the desert and Jesus spending 40 days in the wilderness.

Troubleshooter is correct.

The law was wrote on stone tablets, hence temporary and breakable, but throgh Yeshua the commandments are written on our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

What Selahobed is referring to is the New Covenant of Jesus. The old law is made obsolete.

Heres what the Bible says about it.

Behold, the days are coming,' says the LORD, 'when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them,' says the LORD. 'For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,' says the LORD: 'I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, "Know the LORD," for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.' In that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:6-13).

Originally posted by halfoldman

My entanglement is with normal Christians who use the Old Testament literally when it suits them (against homosexuality), but not when tradition prohibits it (the real Sabbath, not eating shellfish, polygamy, concubines).
Any evangelist who has sinned should either drop the entire Old Testament, or submit to 40 lashes in public!!!!

They also use the NT literally when it suits them. That is just as damaging.

IMHO christians have a tendency to do exactly what you claim they do.
The OT is good in that there is a lot of wisdom there. Proverbs is my favorite. But there are also some things (laws) that simply do not apply today. Those that focus on these things always have an agenda.
That agenda is "do as I say, not as I do". Like Ted Haggard for example.

THe church is a mess.

2 Peter 2:2 KJV
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of .

That is absolutely 100% true. It is a picture perfect fit for what we see today.
You can see it in the world, and right here on this board.

I was also hoping to hear from those Christians who do justify, particularly corporal punishment, according to the OT.

Corporal punishment does not equal child abuse. You do not beat the crap out of a kid when punishing them. Spare the rod and spoil the child is just as true today as it was back then. Look at the way kids are now. It's not good. Kids have to know that there are painful consequences. But the pain is temporary and never inflicted in hate.

A good spanking early sure beats a prison sentence later. Not to mention the person(s) that the spoiled kid victimized. That kind of pain can last a lifetime.



[edit on 18/11/09 by PSUSA]

reply to post by PSUSA

They also use the NT literally when it suits them. That is just as damaging.

IMHO christians have a tendency to do exactly what you claim they do.

THe church is a mess.

Theres always a few bad apples in every group.

Could you please be little more specific as to whom you are speaking of,as to what denomination?

WHat "denomination"? All of them.

I see no reason to have denominations (divisions, really). There is no excuse at all.

Where did Christ teach that there should be divisions in His church? Where did He teach that you could start your own brand of christianity because you disagree with another churches DOCTRINES?

Nowhere that I can find.


[edit on 18/11/09 by PSUSA]

Originally posted by PSUSA

Relax big guy,
The reason I ask is because there is a difference between organized religion and simply being a adherent of Christ.

I see no reason to have denominations (divisions, really). There is no excuse at all.

With regards to the many, many, many contradictions in the Bible not everyone will agree unanimously. The Bible is not so black and white.

reply to post by oliveoil

Relax big guy,

I am .
Don't mistake written bluntness for rudeness. It's a common problem on boards. I don't like to write long flowery posts if I can condense things and get my point across.

The reason I ask is because there is a difference between organized religion and simply being a adherent of Christ.

Agreed.

With regards to the many, many, many contradictions in the Bible not everyone will agree unanimously. The Bible is not so black and white.

What contradictions? If you mean contradictions in the Bible, I agree with you. If you mean contradictions in scripture, I disagree. A lot of the contradictions are the result of poor or inconsistent translating.

The thing is, entire denominations build their doctrines on these inconsistencies and poor translations to the practical exclusion of everything else.

reply to post by PSUSA

What contradictions? If you mean contradictions in the Bible, I agree with you. If you mean contradictions in scripture, I disagree. A lot of the contradictions are the result of poor or inconsistent translating.

Heres a clear example of contradictory scripture.

In James 23:14-26 James appears to be saying that salvation is by works, However Paul teaches it to be by grace Rom 4:5 titus 3:5-7 eph 2:8-9

Which one is it?
The Bible is riddled with these little but HUGE contradictions.
This is why there is many different views.

The thing is, entire denominations build their doctrines on these inconsistencies and poor translations to the practical exclusion of everything else.

We are in agreement. This is the reason I do not follow organized religion.
My denomination is the denomination of me.


[edit on 18-11-2009 by oliveoil]

James 23:14-26

James has 5 chapters, not 23+

Edit to add:

Another topic can be started. This one is being derailed.


[edit on 18/11/09 by PSUSA]

Originally posted by PSUSA

James 23:14-26

James has 5 chapters, not 23+

I meant to write James 2:14-26

I have very poor typing skills and arthritis.

reply to post by PSUSA

Paradoxically, it seems clear that there are non-religious and religious arguments for beating children.
How do we however define "childhood", and why should adults not receive corporal punishment?