Opinion on the insurance paying side of healthcare debate

I am going to jump right in with a scenario....Person A has health insurance and pays their bill promptly and diligently...Person B has no health insurance and CHOOSES not to do so....a band-aid costs 1 dollar in the beginning...Person A needs a band-aid and due to paying insurance gets the band-aid for the correct price of 1 dollar...Person B needs a band-aid and can not afford to pay his bill BUT, gets the band-aid and care anyway...WELL!! Look at that!! That 1 dollar band-aid has now gone up to 2 dollars that Person A will end up paying when needed in the future....What is wrong with some people's thinking on this whole healthcare debate?? People who carry health insurance ALREADY pay for the lack of others non-payment in insurance or healthcare via emergency room treatments and then skipping out on the bill....Person A's premiums keep climbing while Person B buy cars and homes they certainly should not afford when they have not taken care of a basic necessity...Why SHOULD the Insurance payers carry the load of a non-insurance payer who stuffs himself in a super-size world? Never mind the pack of cigarettes Person B smokes in a day, lack of excercise, etc. So, what's the problem? Leaving the political crap out of the scenario, why SHOULDN'T everyone be required to carry a basic need?? I for one am tired of paying so much in premiums for the lack of the rest who choose NOT to pay....
Take special note on this point.... which would be the government will subsidize (basically give you a credit) if you are under a certain income level to pay your insurance so what is the gripe if they are going to pay (or a portion of) it for you???....I read a post somewhere that they will not be including credit card payments in the final tally for the subsidy...and why should they? Credit cards are for over and above (extra perks so-to-speak) what it takes to live...if you can afford a credit card then you can afford insurance...THIS is the "free" ride some are taking, they don't want to give up the luxury perks...Too bad...as an insurance payer, I have the right to feel the way I do, and don't care what others think, I am tired of paying for people who make poor choices in the name of self gratification (BMW VS. Nissan) or (6 room home with 1 bath VS. 10 room home with 2 baths)...my OPINION is most that don't want reform are NOT already paying, and this might cut into their fun stuff...and oh!! one more thing...My family of 5 live on approximately 35,000 a year and live in a modest 6 room home and yes, fight over the 1 bathroom...LOL......so No, we are not some rich family...but in my thoughts, I am on the rich-thinking side...Paying our health insurance premiums pretty much counts out any type of Disney trip for my family, but we have seen every great state park our state has to offer and have fun doing it... it's called responsible living within the means...
AND THIS is NOT meant for ALL, but it will be interesting to see just how heated this may become amongst the ones who "Don't want to pay" LOL....

Mods, I placed this in the grey area due to not being backed by facts or political humdrum...this is ALL a matter of OPINION....feel free to move if you see fit...

Now, go ahead peeps...Flame-away as I know most will *sigh*...I just feel better getting it off my chest!!

I am editing this to refer to comments 3 posts down by Von Doom....This thread is NOT for people who pay their bills, but for the ones who use the emergency room as a personal Dr.s office and then skip out on paying...sorry for not clarifying, and Thank you VonDoom for waking me up a little...ALWAYS learning and accepting of others thoughts...
[edit on 11-11-2009 by rockhndr]

[edit on 11-11-2009 by rockhndr]

Simply put it would be wrong for me to tell you you have to acquire something.

I can not nor should I ever be able to tell you what to do with your self.

Well thank-you!! Your opinion has been noted....all thoughts are welcome, but somehow yours just made my day!! LOL....

reply to post by rockhndr


In your scenario, why did person B get a free bandage? Why not let persons A and B walk out of the hospital, go to the corner drugstore, and buy a box of bandages. I know that wasn't the point of your example, but the analogy is still the same. Instead of wondering why person A has to pay double to make up for person B, we should be wondering why medical costs are so high to begin with.

Let me say a little something about insurance. The insurance industry is run like a Vegas casino. They calculate the odds, then they adjust the premium (bet) to payout ratio to guarantee that they make a profit in the long run. I don't know the figures, but for the sake of argument lets just say a casino does the numbers and figures they can make a 4% profit in the long run. That being the case, they more people come in and gamble, the more money they make. They may have to pay out some big winners, but, like they say, Vegas was built by losers.

The main difference between casinos and insurance companies is that insurance companies have bought off enough lawmakers to have laws made that force people to buy insurance. Auto insurance is a good example. Insurance fraud is another example of insurance companies control over lawmakers. If an insurance company refuses to pay a legitimate claim, you have to haire a lawyer out of your own pocket and take them to court. If you defraud an insurance company, the government comes after you. Another good example are seat belt laws. The insurance companies benefit from those by way of lesser injuries, smaller payouts. Does the government really benefit by forcing you to wear a seat belt? Would we think it acceptable for the government to force you to gamble at a casino? Or force you to buy lottery tickets?

The way I see it, the whole problem with health care in this country today is the insurance industry. They make billions, if not trillions, in profits each year. That's PROFITS. That's money they took in premiums, but did not pay out in benefits. Now add to that the money they pay out in benefits, and the overhead costs, salaries, etc. If health insurance was outlawed, all that money would be available to people to pay their own health care. It would also drive health care costs down. Hospitals that charge $10 for an aspirin would not stay in business in a free market system of health care. They can get away with that sort of thing now because there are so many layers between the patient and the hospital, the hospital knows the insurance companies will pay it, and the patient is glad that he's not paying it (or so he thinks).

I'm self employed. I had health insurance. In the beginning, it cost me about $130 a month. Every year it went up, even though there was no significant change in the number of times I went to the doctor. A couple years ago, my monthly insurance premium went up to $230 a month. That's when I let it go. I figured that it was a whole lot cheaper for me to just pay my medical expenses out of my own pocket. That was my choice, to do what I felt was in my own best interests. Kind of a "pusuit of happiness" thing. It would sure be nice to live in a country where people are allowed to make choices for themselves. Are there any countries like that left in the world?

I really do sympathize with you, and my thread is definitely not for you, guess I'm going to have to edit it....My thread is out of frustration at the ones who choose to utilize the emergency room, and then leave the bill behind (thus the partial reason for cost of Person A's band-aid rising) and NO, this is NOT ALL a direct result of illegal aliens.... I do understand exactly what you are saying and you are absolutely right in your statements about insurance profits....forgive me if you thought this was directed at you, or anyone in your like position...With that said...even with a subsidy based on income will you still refuse to carry insurance if the rates are paid for you with such a program? Thank you for your enlightening contribution...I have learned a few things with your comments.

Why do some people think big government is the answer to everything?

Our government was laid out with specifically enumerated powers in the Constitution. These powers were very limited with all other power being placed in the hands of the states and the people (Article X). Unfortunately, sometime in the 20th century or mayby as far back as the Civil War, we forgot what these enumerated powers were and allowed our Federal government to creep into areas of our lives never mentioned in the Constitution. Little by little they have expanded their reach until they have gotten their greedy little paws into every aspect of the people's lives. The analogy of the frog in the pot of boiling water comes to mind.

It has come to the point that the average American today BELIEVES that this is the right and proper role of the federal government.They believe it is proper for them to control every aspect of our lives, even to the point of telling us to buy something we may or may not need.

Is it too lake to wake up the masses?

If they were to be given a copy of the Constitution, would they recognize the fact that the government that we have is not the one spelled out in that document?

Would the average American today read the Constitution and simply shrug, believing that everthing that goes on today is permitted by this document?

I am afraid so.

The exterme measurs taken by the government in recent years (by both administrations) have been slowly waking up people to the excesses of the government. Bush woke up many on the left to the expanding police state and loss of liberties, then their guy got into power and now many of them are falling back asleep. While many on the right were already aware of the situation, the Obama administration's excesses have been awakening many people who previously had not much interest in polotics.

I pray it may be enough before all is lost. Unfortunately, I believe it will take something major and unprecedented, like martial law and FEMA camps to wake up enough people to make a difference. By then it may be too late....

LOL....This is not meant to be a political government debate, but here's my take....The government wouldn't have to babysit if people would just grow up and do the right thing to begin with......keep hearing about people comparing health to auto insurance mandation...can't do that...auto is individualized state mandated, not federal, But, with that said, why did they mandate auto insurance? Could it be because INNOCENT people were getting hurt through no fault of their own, losing homes for lack of money due to injury that was not their fault? All because the other person just CHOSE to not carry insurance? HOW people would scream if Workers comp weren't mandated on companies for employees if injured due to no fault of their own on the job...see how everything comes around? You don't just pick what works for you...(workers comp) and leave other stuff behind...So, once again I ask...WHY should I pay my premium every month only to have higher costs in premiums due to ANYONE who walks away from their bill, yet uses the emergency room as their own personal Dr.? THAT is the topic of my thread....

reply to post by rockhndr


No offense taken at all. I hope I didn't come off sounding irate. But I guess when I start talking about insurance companies, well, I'm not a fan of their methods. I appreciate your point of view and I thank you for really listening to mine. Exchange of ideas, that's what this should all be about.

reply to post by FortAnthem


and also a Thank-you for your thoughts...
I am ALWAYS willing to listen and have a healthy (pun intended...LOL)
open conversation...this is how I grow and learn every day...

reply to post by rockhndr

I really do sympathize with you, and my thread is definitely not for you, guess I'm going to have to edit it....My thread is out of frustration at the ones who choose to utilize the emergency room, and then leave the bill behind

So what about people like me. My husband got kicked in the head by a horse. He was knocked out cold and lost a tooth. I took him to the local hospital. They got all the info, we sat for hours and then a nurse came out asked the problem. Told the nurse. He said we do not do teeth and told us to leave. That absolutely great medical care??? cost us $735.oo Two seconds for a NP to tell us to get lost. No blood pressure, no checking eye dilation or reflexes.


GRRrrr:
flame:

crimvelvet, you bring a very good point and validation to my thread...that bill should never have been that high...due to others who use the emergency room like a revolving door and leave without some form of payment (aka insurance or payment plan)...and another valid point as to WHY people in general NEED some form of protection with insurance....Did you have insurance?? I do hope your husband is and will be ok...

Originally posted by rockhndr
LOL....This is not meant to be a political government debate, but here's my take....The government wouldn't have to babysit if people would just grow up and do the right thing to begin with......

You have to remember, the government turned us all into babys with their nanny state. The created the atmosphere which made us all into irresponsible children; from welfare queens and minorities (and even some in the majority) believing they are owed something by society. They have created the society in which irresponsibity rules and people believe the government will step in to pick them up whenever they fall.

In a just world, all people would take responsibiltiy for their own actions. Unfortunately, the government just encourages people to look to others to solve their problems.

If the government were to step aside, people would be forced to take responsibitity for their actions or die from their own neglect. I think most people, faced with those choices would choose to step up and work harder to be responsible citicins.

I wouldn't shed a tear for those that made the other choice.

I did the math... How are you paying your bills???

reply to post by FortAnthem


I hear you loud and clear and SO agree...
2nd line....I need a coffee...LOL...

Originally posted by rockhndr
LOL....This is not meant to be a political government debate, but here's my take....The government wouldn't have to babysit if people would just grow up and do the right thing to begin with......keep hearing about people comparing health to auto insurance mandation...can't do that...auto is individualized state mandated, not federal, But, with that said, why did they mandate auto insurance? Could it be because INNOCENT people were getting hurt through no fault of their own, losing homes for lack of money due to injury that was not their fault? All because the other person just CHOSE to not carry insurance? HOW people would scream if Workers comp weren't mandated on companies for employees if injured due to no fault of their own on the job...see how everything comes around? You don't just pick what works for you...(workers comp) and leave other stuff behind...So, once again I ask...WHY should I pay my premium every month only to have higher costs in premiums due to ANYONE who walks away from their bill, yet uses the emergency room as their own personal Dr.? THAT is the topic of my thread....

That's where we are in agreement, sort of. I don't think your health insurance premiums should be higher to cover someone else who has no insurance. But it is, so why is that? Why do your premiums help to pay for someone elses health care?

From my previous post, you see that I see insurance as a gamble. Imagine if the casinos told you that you had to double your bet at the roulette table so someone else could have a free spin. You should be able to decide the risks for yourself and place your wager accordingly. Is a term life policy good for you? Depends on your situation. Do I want flood insurance? If I live in Florida, probably. If I live in Iowa, maybe not. If I do live in Iowa my flood insurance premium shouldn't be higher to make up for someone in Florida.

It used to be that your health insurance premiums were determined by health factors. Age, weight, smoker/non-smoker, etc. Now they factor in you paying for someone else. Like the auto insurance you mentioned. If you buy the insurance, it should cover you and any damage you do. If someone without insurance does damage to themselves, well, they lost that bet. If they do damage to someone who is insured, then that person's insurance should have the policy holder covered. If they do damage to someone who's not insured, they both lose. But that's not good enough for insurance companies' greed. They want everyones money.

I do want to address one other point you made. The federal govenment has no consitutional authority in this matter. I think that was the point you were making. The Constitution clearly spells out the role of the federal government, then goes on to say that any authority not reserved for the federal government goes to the states and the people. So even if they passed this health care legislation, it's unconstitutional. Not that the federal government cares.

reply to post by fishing


Is that for me?? We pay them just fine...850 mortgage includes taxes and insurance, 125 electricity, approx 400 grocery (i am a coupon nut...lol) 100 cable/phone/internet, 325 (this is pretax) health insurance includes prescription or med account-pretax of 80.00 per month, 75.00 vehicle (3 cars) insurance....these are averages...per month we do just fine Thank you for your concern... The one thing we lack is the trip to Disney...LOL...we also contribute to 401K...AND pay 10 per week for our dogs pet insurance-she's an expensive dog....

reply to post by VictorVonDoom


Maybe I'm just seeing the whole insurance thing through rose colored glasses?? LOL...I am GRATEFUL for our insurance...our 6 year old son was born 4 months premature at 28 weeks, with a host of lung complications weighing 2 pounds (he is a healthy happy 6 year old now) He stayed in NICU for 4 long months, came home on oxygen therapy his first year, also, physical therapy, occupational therapy 2x per week...home health nurse 1x per week as he was not allowed to go to Dr.s office-he could not be exposed to colds etc in the office...bythe time we added up his total...his care was 1.3 million dollars...this is right down to ALL of it...the synagis shot for RSV 2 times a year in the beginning were 1250 each time...it was crazy!! This gamble as you call it so paid off for us...and made us realize how quickly something like this could and does happen!! Out of pocket cost less than 2 thousand in co pays and deductable...which we set up a payment plan on...So maybe I just see it all differently...???

reply to post by rockhndr

.Did you have insurance?? I do hope your husband is and will be ok...

No we had no insurance. I had to pack hubby up and take him to another emergency room. He is mostly ok but he can not take any type of shock to the head. (Earlier head injury from a bike accident) If he gets badly jarred he just plain spaces out and sits there staring vacantly. I would speculate he has permanent damage to the membrane surounding the brain that cushions it from shock, but I have never had a chance to talk to a doctor.

Normally we go to a doctor who is cash only. He is much cheaper because he does not have to hire another person just to handle paperwork.

Get the Lawyers and Insurance companies OUT of Medicine and the rates would drop like a stone.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Sorry to hear that...very good point made though!!
2nd line.....going for another coffee...

Back in "the good ole' days" (did that really exist or is it just another urban legend) people paid cash for their medical bills and healthcare was affordable for everyone.

If someone came down with a catastrophic illness or was severely injured, they could go to a free clinic (usually run by some religious organization) or they could appeal to some charitable organization for help with their bills.

Somewhere along the line someone decided we needed a middleman to help us pay for our medical bills and Health Insurance was created to make healthcare available to all the masses. Medical costs skyrocketed and now hardly anyone can afford healthcare without insurance. If they can afford insurance.

Now we want to add another layer to this unworkable system.

Why is it everytime we do something to reduce costs, costs seem to skyrocket instead?