The "real" Reason for the Season

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Benevolent masters, you who seek even when logic has tossed and turned your view into a corner. Nothing is impossible. What we really celebrate every year around the darkest night, and why we resist any P t B.... Jesju was born under a pisces sign and in the month of pisces, and his most important signs all include fish, pairs of pisces or what not. He was Pisces.

So your saying he was a complete daydreamer who was a bit unpractical, got bored easily, but was quite creative?

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Benevolent masters, you who seek even when logic has tossed and turned your view into a corner. Nothing is impossible. What we really celebrate every year around the darkest night, and why we resist any P t B.... Jesju was born under a pisces sign and in the month of pisces, and his most important signs all include fish, pairs of pisces or what not. He was Pisces.

reply to post by Omagodin


December 6 marked the last day of the Yule celebrations in the old Nordic Pagan festivals. It is where we get the 12 Days of Christmas from. Since we discuss this pagan holiday of Yule, it brings me back to a christmas jingle that raised a brow for me:

"Join the ancient Yule-Tide carrols. Fa, la, la, la ,la, la, la, la, la."



And an explanation of Santa's "Ho, ho, ho!"
The customary greeting for the occasion is a "Io, Saturnalia!" — Io (pronounced "e-o") being a Latin interjection related to "ho" (as in "Ho, praise to Saturn").

The customary greeting for the occasion is a "Io, Saturnalia!" — Io (pronounced "e-o") being a Latin interjection related to "ho" (as in "Ho, praise to Saturn").

Great thread OP

I don't put up a Christmas tree because of Jeremiah 10, but the presents thing is so difficult to get out of. If I felt I could do so without offending my husbands family, I would stop celebrating Christmas altogether.

How does one stop celebrating Christmas without being labeled a scrooge?

When I was a kid and hadn't started researching the Bible, I always thought the Jehovah Witnesses were odd for not celebrating, but it turns out they are being more obedient to the word of God than I.

Originally posted by Omagodin
So your saying he was a complete daydreamer who was a bit unpractical, got bored easily, but was quite creative?

Something like that, yes. I see Jesju as a typical Pisces, born at the dawn of the Age of Pisces, whose first sign before the cross was that of a fish, whose two first disciples were typically two fishermen... Get the picture. And he was the son of a Virgo - Virgin.

Originally posted by the siren
Great thread OP

I don't put up a Christmas tree because of Jeremiah 10, but the presents thing is so difficult to get out of. If I felt I could do so without offending my husbands family, I would stop celebrating Christmas altogether.

How does one stop celebrating Christmas without being labeled a scrooge?

When I was a kid and hadn't started researching the Bible, I always thought the Jehovah Witnesses were odd for not celebrating, but it turns out they are being more obedient to the word of God than I.

I say Good For YOU with the christmas tree. Jeremiah 10 is what made my wife come on board with me. I am not a Jehova's Witness nor am I a non-christian. I am a Judeo-Christian. I don't follow man-made religious holidays that are adaptations of ancient pagan holidays. I follow the 7 holy day feasts of the bible (Leviticus 23) with their new "christian" meaning. Passover was the time of the Last Supper and the crucifixion of Christ. Paul speaks of leavening as "sin" on the time of the feast of Unleavened Bread... 7 day feast following passover. Pentacost is the day the new testament church started and the Holy Spirit fell upon mankind. It is also the holy day that explains the "firstfruits" of Christ as Christ was the firstfruits of God through resurrection. Feast of Trumpets represents the tribulation and the return of Christ at the blowing of the "Last" or "seventh" trumpet. Atonement, or the "fast" represents the time Satan is imprisoned and mankind can become closer to God. Feast of Tabernacles represents the 1000 year period of peace on earth after Christ returns. It's a 7 day feast. The eighth day or the "Last Great Day" represents the 2nd resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgement, and the New Heaven and New Earth.... everlasting life for believers and permanent death for opposers of God. These are the true HOLY DAYS commanded in the bible.

I was chastised by my family when we broke the news last christmas season that we would no longer be celebrating the holiday along with easter, valentines day, and St. Patricks Day. Me and my wife were called "retarded" by my mom and we were called "crazy" my my in-laws. Sometimes we have to make tough decisions to follow God the way He intended us to follow Him. Remember Matthew chapter 10 when we were told that our household members would become our enemies if we followed Christ. We would be "crucified" in a metaphoric way for truely following Christ as opposed to those who say "Lord, Lord" and do not do as He says. Follow your heart. Follow your gut. Show your families what a true christian is like. Let Christ reflect your life and you'll be fine. God bless you and your journey to truth. visit this website for more enlightening....

www.ucg.org

Originally posted by the siren
Great thread OP

I don't put up a Christmas tree because of Jeremiah 10

Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the peoples (idols, graven images) is delusion, because it is mere wood hewn in the forest -- work of the hands of a craftsman using an iron.

This has nothing to do with Christmas trees, it's about how graven images are made. Should we forbid houses made of wood too?

Tune in later this spring when the Fundies will be explaining via the Bible texts why there are so many eggs and bunnies around Easter...

Nothing to do at all with pagan fertility rituals.
Nothing to see here......move along.

Originally posted by Badgered1
Tune in later this spring when the Fundies will be explaining via the Bible texts why there are so many eggs and bunnies around Easter...

Nothing to do at all with pagan fertility rituals.
Nothing to see here......move along.

It has everything to do with fertility rituals. The actual crucifixion of Christ occured on Passover and His resurrection occured in the middle of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. He was killed on a Wednesday, not Friday. He resurrected before sunset on the Sabbath, not Sunday morning. That's all I have to say about Easter. Christmas is more complex because it has various different pagan traditions tied to it like Saturnalia, Brumalia, Sol Invictus, Yule, etc.

The word, "Easter" actually comes from the fertility goddess, "Ishtar" who is depicted by pagans as a woman with many breasts. Once again, the origins of Easter have everything to do with fertility rites.

End sarcasm before it bites you in the weenie

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by the siren
Great thread OP

I don't put up a Christmas tree because of Jeremiah 10

Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the peoples (idols, graven images) is delusion, because it is mere wood hewn in the forest -- work of the hands of a craftsman using an iron.

This has nothing to do with Christmas trees, it's about how graven images are made. Should we forbid houses made of wood too?

Source: www.askelm.com...

The debate is not over whether the Christmas tree is pagan because every mature Christian knows that. What has become a matter of discussion, however, mainly among Christian theologians, is whether the Christmas tree (or something similar to it) has been singled out by Jeremiah. The section of Scripture that evokes this debate is Jeremiah 10:1-5 and 8,9. Let us see what Jeremiah states with the King James Version being the basis of the translation.

"Hear you the word which the Lord speaks unto you, O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord. Learn not the way of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of the heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it [the tree] with silver and with gold. They fasten it [the tree] with nails and with hammers that it move not. They [such trees] are upright as the palm tree, but speak not. The tree [KJV: stock] is a doctrine of vanities. Silver is spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder. Blue and purple is their clothing. They [the trees] are all the work of cunning men."

The King James Version gives a reasonable translation of the Hebrew words as spoken by Jeremiah. You will notice that I have identified the pronouns in brackets, and what I have stated follows the Hebrew wording and context precisely without ambiguity. These trees are decked with gold, silver, as well as with rich weavings of blue and purple fabrics. Jeremiah compared the use of these decked-out trees to the practice of idolatry and such trees were being used in false worship.

If one leaves alone the simple context with all the subjects kept in view, one is left with the impression that Jeremiah is condemning the idolatrous act of "tree worship." And it makes perfectly good sense that this is what the prophet is condemning. There are some translators, however, who substitute other meanings to a few of the words above and they arrive at the conclusion that Jeremiah is speaking about getting some timber (cut wood) from the forest, carving it into the shape of an idol (be it human, or a part of the human anatomy) and then plating it over with silver and gold (as one might mold or gild metal onto wood). In brief, they claim that the subject of Jeremiah is not a tree (or trees) or "tree worship" but a carved idol made out of wood that has been gilded with gold and silver. In effect, the translators who adopt such a translation have got rid of the "tree worship" theme that the simple use of the Hebrew seems to advance and have substituted it with a theme simply condemning the making of particular types of idols.

But what does Jeremiah mean? This is where the debate among scholars begins. Is he basically referring to plain and simple "tree worship" that was then prevalent all over the Middle East? Or was he actually selecting out idols that had been manufactured out of wood (usually carved from blocks of wood) and then gilded with a veneer of gold or silver? There are examples of such gilding in the Bible. It is found in the creation of the Ark of the Covenant located in the Holy Place (Exodus 25:10-16), and Isaiah shows that some images were also fashioned in the gilded fashion. "The workman melts a graven image, and the goldsmith spreads it over with gold, and casts silver chains" (Isaiah 40:19). Many idols were not gilded, however. The next verse in Isaiah says it is the poor and impoverished pagan who cannot afford gold or silver and is subjected to creating an idol out of wood alone. "He that is so impoverished that he has no oblation chooses a tree that will not rot; he sees him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image that shall not be moved."

Though the majority of ancient idols were made of solid clay, stone, bone, metal or wood, most were not gilded over with gold or silver. They were on the other hand commonly decorated or painted with such substances and it is thought that this is what Jeremiah may have been talking about. So, just what does the section of Jeremiah really mean? This is the question that modern scholars have been concerned with in interpreting the passage of Jeremiah quoted above. Let us see what the evidence holds in this regard.

When Jeremiah said "one cuts a tree out of the forest," the word for "tree" is a Hebrew word that ordinarily means a living tree that grows in the ground. The "trees" in the Garden of Eden, including that of the knowledge of good and evil as well as the tree of life, were indicated as being ordinary "trees" by the use of this word. True, it can sometimes means a block of wood, but when Jeremiah said to cut a tree "from the forest," a forest is made up of numerous trees usually over a vast region of land. A forest is made up of many trees, not many "blocks of wood" or "pieces of timber." The immediate context of Jeremiah shows he is really talking about a tree that one can cut down and that it [the tree] can be decked or adorned with gold or silver and/or blue or purple cloths.

There is a further way to show that the context of Jeremiah is speaking of a literal tree. He states that the "tree" which is decked with ornaments and is nailed in place is like a "palm tree" that is upright [secured with hammered metal] so that it remains rigid and erect. This is what Jeremiah wrote if one uses the simple meaning of the Hebrew words as a guide. A "palm tree" is certainly being discussed by Jeremiah because the only other time the word is used in the Bible, it clearly refers to a living palm tree (Judges 4:5). This is a reliable clue.

But some interpreters do not want Jeremiah referring to a "palm tree" in this section of scripture. They want it to be a pillar, a type of scarecrow that one would put in a garden or a cucumber patch (like an idol referred to in the apocryphal work Baruch 5:70). As Keil and Delitzsch show in their commentary on this verse, the scholars who thought up this interpretation understood the "palm tree" to be the pagan god Priapus (in the form of a phallic symbol -a pillar shaped like the male organ as a sexual object) which was placed in a cucumber patch as a scarecrow. I imagine such a phallic display would frighten off the crows. Keil and Delitzsch, however, utterly dismiss this interpretation. They say it has little in common with the context of Jeremiah. And this is true. There is not a tissue of evidence from the context that this is what Jeremiah meant by his "palm tree."

Granted, phallic symbols were found in wide profusion in the ancient pagan world in devotion to Priapus or other fertility deities (our modern steeples and spires on churches are a remnant of such phallic shapes associated with the pagan heathen temples and their holy places). And, according to the scholars who first suggested "the pillar in a cucumber patch" interpretation for Jeremiah, they imagine that this was a type of "sex object" that Jeremiah was speaking about. But modern translators who adopt the suggestion are not honest because the majority do not want to offend the sensitivities of the biblical readers and they normally leave out the part that the male sexual organ is the object of Jeremiah's discussion.

They should have had no worry. Jeremiah is really talking about pagan "tree worship" that the Israelites of his time had taken up. The palm tree (which is an evergreen like most Christmas trees today) was being decorated with gold and silver spiral ribbons like those that come forth from the working of a lathe and also with blue and purple cloth ribbons. Such trees were known as asherahs. They are mentioned several times in the Old Testament and often are translated by the English word "grove." But the word asherah has been shown to refer to a single tree that can be living, cut out of the forest, or depicted in various abstract forms. Indeed, the most ancient form of all pagan religion is simple "tree worship." Long before most nations of the world took up depicting their gods and goddesses in human or animal form, it is known that well-nigh the whole of the world's population (civilized or savage) were thoroughly engrossed in various forms of "tree worship." The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics has a large article that shows the universal proclivity of all ancient peoples (including the Hebrews) to indulge in the worship of living trees and those they had cut out of the forest for religious reasons (vol.12, pp.448-457).

Such "tree worship" was well known in the time of Jeremiah and later. The oak was universally held in esteem. In mountainous areas cedars and firs were worshiped. In more desert regions the palm was the tree most worshiped. As the The Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics states: "Tree worship pure and simple, where the tree is in all respects treated as a god, is attested for Arabia in the case of the sacred date-palm in Nejran. It was adorned at an annual feast with fine clothes and women's ornaments" (vol.12, p.449). The encyclopaedia goes on to say that the biblical mention of the women of Judah draping the asherah with their garments near the Temple at Jerusalem is another example of tree worship (II Kings 23:7).

....continued.....

This kind of heathen activity is precisely what Jeremiah is referring to in chapter 10. He was telling the Israelites not to learn the way of the heathen by cutting a tree out of the forest and decorating it with spiral ribbons of gold and silver like those coming from the workings of a lathe, and adorned with blue and purple fabric ribbons. Such customs were normally associated with the seasonal feasts of the pagans (especially those of the Solstices or Equinoxes). The modern Christmas tree is a prime example in our day of what the heathen were doing in the time of Jeremiah.

One wonders what Jeremiah, if he were alive today, would say about all the Christmas trees that now decorate our Christian homes and Christian churches? Would he sound a similar alarm like he did among the ancient Jewish population in Jerusalem? He probably would. And knowing how the apostles of Christ said to flee idolatry, the apostles would probably be equally against perpetuating these heathen customs. But as for the preachers and religious leaders today, they condone the whole thing and delight in the pagan festivities.

reply to post by Locoman8


The idols in question has nothing to do with Christmas trees, the idol in question is the "Asjera-pole". A wooden decorated fallos thingy used in the worship of Ashera (Ishtar? Easter? Astarte? Venus? Frøya?)

My idea of Christmas is a commercialised attempt at profiteering, which does quite well. It hides its ugly face under the guise of Christianity and the likes. Just as Thanksgiving inspires GLUTTONY, Christmas inspires GREED and ENVY.

I celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus, not his birth. However, I really see no harm in celebrating his birth. I mean, really...what's so bad about Christmas? Is it simply because it has the root word "christ"?

Respectfully
A2D

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Ashera is also the goddess who hides behind the enigmatic term "Queen of Heaven" in Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44. As in ancient Egypt Heaven and Earth were gods. In Egypt the goddess of Heaven was called Nut and the god of the Earth was called Geb. That was where the star cults started and the first fallos was rised. Ever since tribes and nations and peoples have made sure that Heaven and Earth have their basic needs fulfilled. Sex in the form of a fallos, food in the shape of food sacrifice, love in the shape of their festivals, norms and rules etc. Sacred prostitution anyone? She was seen as the counterpart of the Jahveh for a period in history, as seen on inscriptions dug up in Palestine.

[edit on 15/12/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


I thought it was about what Jesju meant when he said:

"Sell all you have in your stores and give money to the Salvation Army"

Most towns and cities have arrangements for the poor during Christmas. It's the one day we actually live by the good news. Although there is much tragedy, let's hope this Christmas can make for a better change for people. It's not harder than that....

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Tell that to the guy who got trampled to death at a NY Wal-Mart last year on Black Friday. This time of the year brings out the worst in people as a whole even if some people are individually better than usual this time of year. I say, any bit of homicide over worldly posessions isn't worth celebrating.

reply to post by Locoman8


More people die from nature itself, things like gravity and matter can be devestating -- than people die from Christmas. Should we ban religion alltogether because God created a ball with a fiery several thousand degrees Celcius hot core with a surface so full of stumbling blocks and terrifying cliffs and stuff, WATER! Oceans of it, dangerous as hell, full os sharks, giant squids and crabs. It just lacks the clowns and a meteor full of ammonia and brimstone and it would be hell itself. Come on. Christmas can be kind of fun, and when you live in a place where it's dark months at a time, we need this feast of lights and green trees and what not. It's to remind us the world is still alive damnit.

Ok, Im a Druid here. I just joined. So yes, as the initial poster said, we ''pagans'' worship on the solstices and equinoxes. We Druids call them ''The Albans''...


Alban Arthuan: Dec. 21st
Alban Eiler: Mar. 21st
Alban Heruin: June 21st
Alban Elved: Sept. 21st


So anyway, HAPPY HOLIDAYS! My wife and I will be celebrating ours this monday, woo! Im sorry if saying Happy Holidays offends you, Ive been hearing debate about that alot. lol

[edit on 19-12-2009 by Tanulis]

[edit on 19-12-2009 by Tanulis]

Originally posted by Tanulis
Alban Heruin: June 21st

That one must be a kick!

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by Tanulis
Alban Heruin: June 21st

That one must be a kick!

haaaaaa. ya got me! lol, I know it sounds funny. Lmao