Blackwater...eh hem *cough* "Xe" recent developments.

I accidently pasted over my entire post on this subject...so bear with me as I type this again.

For the record, it is my personal goal to put Mr. Prince and Blackwater...now known as Xenon aka "Xe", out of business. I have no personal grudge against the people, only the performance of which they conducted themselves. It is the fault of the US government who allowed them to tarnish the image and reputation of the Private Security Industry aka PMCs.

The conduct of that organisation has given the industry a bad reputation, and it is my desire to correct that and show the public that "Private Sector Security" can and should be held to the same and or above the standard as the Armed Forces.

Please do not allow this to go unnoticed, people have a right, Iraqi people too.
the biggest government cover up is not being talked about, it is being swept under the carpet, and they will, if we don't prevent them. We as in we the people...

Martin Ottmann sends:

The following has been filed in the consolidated Blackwater civil proceedings at the Virginia Eastern District Court in Alexandria. With this filing, all civil actions against Blackwater and Erik Prince, filed by Iraqi citizens, have been voluntarily dismissed. It has not been picked up so far by the press.

www.expose-the-war-profiteers.org...

In Re: Blackwater Alien Tort Claims Act Litigation
U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia
Case No.: 1:09-cv-615, 1:09-cv-616, 1:09-cv-617, 1:09-cv-618, 1:09-cv-645, 1:09-cv-1017, 1:09-cv-1048
Consolidated on July 17th, 2009

November 6th, 2009 - Stipulation of Dismissal with Prejudice

www.expose-the-war-profiteers.org...

"[…] This matter comes before the Court on the application of the parties in the above-captioned actions for entry of an order of dismissal with prejudice pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 41(a)(1), the parties having advised the Court that they have reached a settlement. It is therefore ordered, adjudged and decreed that:

"A. All of the claims, actions and causes of action which any plaintiff in any of the above-captioned actions has, had, or may have, against any defendant in any of the above-captioned actions, arising out of or relating in any way to any of the alleged matters, transactions, representations, actions or omissions to act that were asserted or could have been asserted by any plaintiff against any defendant in this consolidated litigation are dismissed with prejudice; and

"B. The parties shall bear all of their own costs and attorneys' fees incurred in this action. […]"

Explanation: Eh hem *cough*! RE:" This matter comes before the Court on the application of the parties in the above-captioned actions for entry of an order of dismissal with prejudice pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 41(a)(1), the parties having advised the Court that they have reached a settlement.".

There is no problem here! It was a civil suit and it was settled out of court!

Personal Disclosure: Way to go on the beatup! There is no criminal issue here or it would of been a criminal and not a civil case. Or are you implying otherwise ADVISOR? That would be like claiming OJ was a murderer when he was found not guilty of that crime!

Hold on, the dismissal is from one of the "defendant/s", there are 34 others whom didn't. See below example.

Then, read all of the material in the links, and not just the partial quote.

“For the safety of these people, as well as U.S. government personnel and their own colleagues, security guards were obligated to refrain from firing their powerful weapons except when necessary for self-defense. The documents unsealed today allege that these six men disregard that obligation, and in doing so, violated U.S. law.

“Specifically, the defendants are charged with killing 14 unarmed civilians and wounding 20 other individuals in connection with this event. In addition, we can report that a sixth Blackwater security guard has pleaded guilty to charges of voluntary manslaughter and attempt to commit manslaughter for his role in the same shooting. This guilty plea also was unsealed today.

“[…] We’re here today to announce that a 35-count indictment has been unsealed in the District of Columbia. As you are aware, an indictment is merely a formal charging document notifying a defendant of the charges against him or her. All defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty in a court of law.

One example of the 35 charges, mind you this is a

“50. On July 1, 2007, a driver named Wala’a was driving a minibus for three related families who were going to Baghdad airport to apply for passports. The three families included (a) parents with four children, including a three-month old baby; (b) an uncle; and (c) a cousin and his wife.

“51. As the families were returning from the airport, six Xe-Blackwater vehicles, including three with turrets, surrounded the minivan and opened fire for absolutely no reason.

“52. The Xe-Blackwater shooters killed the nine-year boy.

“53. The Xe-Blackwater shooters shot the mother in the back as she bent over, trying to protect the three-month old daughter from being shot. She was unsuccessful, as the baby was shot in the face. […]

Also, I am not versed in legalese or an attorney, I have no extensive knowledge of the legalalities. I do understand how ever that US law doesnt apply in other countries, and violators in a foreign country are subject to that nations laws. So, would a US legal system be relevent to a foreign countries laws?

I posted this, with my stated intent.
Making it public as the news has not, I was shareing. Also even stated my agenda against Xe and how my differences is with their conduct, not the individuals.

reply to post by ADVISOR
Explanation: RE:"Hold on, the dismissal is from one of the "defendant/s", there are 34 others whom didn't. See below example."

That is promoting ignorance and here is why....

On page 2 of the 2nd link that you provide [the PDF], there is a whole list of names listed under the heading Agreed!

From Source:....
"Agreed:

Abdulameer Rahmeem Jehan
Abdulwadood Abdulwahid Abdulrazaq
Abdulwahab Abdulqadir Al-Qalamchi
Adel Jabir Shamma
Adil Lafta Miza’el Shikhayiss
Affrah Sattar Ghafil
Alah Majeed Sghair Zaidi
Ali Kareem Fakhri
Ali Khalaf Salman Mansour
Ali Khalid Sa'aed Jasim
Ali Mahdi Abood Al Sa’adi
Ali Raheem Khalaf
Ali Sa’adi Ali
Ali Sabah Salman
Ammar Ali Mahdi Abood Al Sa’adi
Bara’a Sa’adoon Ismael
Emad Azhar Abdullar
Estate of Akram Khalid Sa'ed Jasim
Estate of Ali Hussamaldeen Ibrahim Albazzaz,
Estate of Ali Khaleel
Estate of Ali Mahdi Salih Ghannam
Estate of Azhar Abdullah Ali
Estate of Ghaniyah Hassan Ali
Estate of Himoud Saed Abtan
Estate of Husain Salih Rabea
Estate of Kadhum Kayiz Aziz
Estate of Khalis Kareem Ali Al Qaysi
Estate of Mohamed Abbas Mahmoud
Estate of Mushtaq Karim Abd Al-Razzaq
Estate of Nibrass Mohammed Dawood
Estate of Oday Ismail Ibraheem
Estate of Omer Mohammed Hamad
Estate of Qasim Mohamed Abbas Mahmoud
Estate of Raheem Khalaf Sa’adoon
Estate of Sa’ad Raheem Jarallah
Estate of Sa’aidi Ali Abbas Husein
Estate of Sabah Salman Hassoon
Estate of Suhad Shakir Fadhil
Estate of Usama Fadhil Abbass
Fereed Waleed Hassoon
Haider Ahmed Rabe’a
Haider Sa’adoon Lateef
Hamzia Unbaid Alwan
Hassan Jabir Salman
Hikmat Ali Husein Al Rubae
Husam Hasan Jaber
Ibtisam Abbass Jorrey
Jassim Mohammed Hashim
Khalid Sa'ed Jasim
Mahdi Abdulkhudhir Abbass
Mahdi Mohammed Salih Mahdi Al Sa’adi
Maulood Mohammed Shathir Husein
Maytham Kadhum Naji Maytham
Mohammed Hassan Mohammed
Mohammed Sa’adi Ali
Mohammed Sabah Salman
Nidhal Khaza’al Salman
Sa’adoon Lateef Majeed
Safeen Hameed Ahmed Qadir
Sajah Azhar Abdullar
Sajjad Azahar Abdullah
Sajjad Raheem Khalaf
Sajjad Sabah Salman
Samah Sa’adi Ali
Sameer Hoobi Jabbar
Sami Hawas Hamood
Sarah Khalid Sa'aed
Sarhan Thiab Abdulmounem
Shakir Fadhil Ali
Shatha Khudhir Hassan Ali
Surah Sa’adi Ali
Talib Mutlaq Deewan
Waleed Sa'ed Jasim
Wijdan Mohsin Saed
Wissam Raheem Fulaih
Yassameen Abdulkhudir Salih
Zahra'a Khalid Sa'ed Jasim
Zuhair Najim Abbood Al-Mamouri "





Personal Disclosure: I think you will find that Alien Tort Statute [wiki] was the legal foothold that this case was originally lodged under!

P.S. Yes Xe Services has settled with the plaintiffs who wished to "SECOND AMENDED COMPLAINT [Note: PDF page 3.]
1.This Second Amended Complaint is being filed pursuant to the Court’s Order dated October 21, 2009. This action seeks compensatory damages to compensate the injured and the families of those killed or seriously injured by Defendants. This action seeks punitive damages in an amount sufficient to punish Defendants for their egregious misconduct." ......
[Note all bold , italics and underline are MY edits for emphasis!] And so the point you made in your OP is valid! They can be held to some kind of account, but I'm sure that settling a civil claim is no admission of guilt!

Cornell University Law

www.answerbag.com... See best answer!

Star for your clarifying reply.

Advisor, for those of us who are interested but don't have the time or brains to read through all the linked material what is the bottom line? Did Xe just pay off the victim's families and walk?
I know Paul Bremer as head the of the Coalition provisional authority made a bunch of rules that immunized contractors from both Iraqi and American law ( kind of like the CIA operates). Oh, and look at all the ex-CIA people that are employed and affiliated with Xe!
That we, the American people have not stood up against these mercenary operations is a stain on us all. The forces we have unleashed in the so called WOT are just as bad as any terrorists ever were. I am ashamed of our administrations both current and former for allowing these thugs to run unfettered by law or any seeming conscience.
Once the world looked on the US as the "good guys" (ok, forget central america). Now we are viewed as the world gestapo. Way to go! and it's only cost us a few hundred thousand lives and several trillion dollars in the process. Did I forget to mention it has bankrupted the United States?
I don't see us reigning in these contractors anytime soon (again, like the CIA). I fear we are truly past the point of no return where, like in a poker game we are bluffing, and have wagered too much to throw in our hand.
So be it. The cards will fall soon and the game will be over, with the American people as the losers while the corporate overlords take their money elsewhere. I am disgusted with all of it and with America for not putting a stop to this long ago. We shall soon get everything we deserve. My neighborhood is already looking like the third world. How about yours?

reply to post by Ask The Animals


Can you give us Americans a clear and decisive way out? Have you ANY examples where once the evil politicians and corporations and military industrial complex take over a country, that the "People" could actually do a damn thing but sit back and take it? Did you not see people marching in the Millions here in America, only to be stifled by media and to the laughter of those who are in a position to help?

This is yet another example of the type of justice the entire world permits, and not just one people under the constraints of their leaders.

Edit to add this new thread link: ATA, this does clarify what I was trying to say if it is true which I believe it is.:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 10-11-2009 by antar]

Thank you for the replies.

Asktheanimals, "the bottom line", yes Xe-Blackwater tried to pay them off or are trying to. Instead of facing the crimes committed...

As confusing as it was for me to make sence of this, glad some one could explain it a tad more.

As for the third world, I have been there. Seen what it looks like, and have described in other threads what horrors exist.
This is not a thread for that, but to answer, no, so far from what I have seen inside the USA. The closesest thing to the thrid world we have here, are shanty towns.

No mangy skeletal half blown up, broken legged donkeys rummeging through garbage heaps the size of school playgrounds for food. Nor have I seen mangy and I mean the animals have mange, starving packs of dogs either. The living conditions in Iraq are inexcusable, no plumbing just sewage openly flowing besides the streets and alleys, garbage every where.

That of course is out side of the green zone, in the Diyala Province where my unit and I were operating in 07. Having been there, and walked and talked with the locals, I know they would fix it if they could. But the support required is less than what it needs to be. We helped as best we could while still conducting our main mission/s.

This is not about that, it is about those people not getting a fair deal. They were robbed, of the only thing they have that is precious, their loved ones.

NO AMMOUNT of $$$$$$$$$ will bring them, back. The economy of Iraq is a sham, and if the recipients of a payoff are lucky enough to live to get a way out of Iraq they will be fortunate. Odds are any settlement will be long in payment and I would not be surprised if the victims families never see a dime.

Which as far as I know, would be the first time a PMC has had charges in a court brought against them. And if they get away with paying off the victims families, it will be the first time a modern PMC essentially got away with murder. Because they paid to do it, instead of being paid to do security they murdered people and may have just gotten off the hook because they threw money at it.

So, what does that make the value of those people lives? Not the insurgents, but the innocent children and familes? What are their lives worth...a BS settlement...

Like I said above, my grudge is not with the individuals but the way the company conducted themselves as a whole. I have been outside the wire on combat patrols, and never once did we even think we could get away with not being professionals. There was no such thing, we did the right thing because that is how we do business, the right way.

Because that's what a "Warfighter" is, a professional.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
Or are you implying otherwise ADVISOR?

That would be like claiming OJ was a murderer when he was found not guilty of that crime!

There is a flaw in your statement. Let me point out why I think so:

Found not guilty in court doesn't meant that he hasn't done it. It's just that the jury thought he didn't. Nothing more!

Many have committed crimes and found not guilty. On the other hand many haven't and have been found guilty and thrown on the death row.

reply to post by thegreatobserver


I believe the distinction that's relevant here between civil and criminal cases is the weight of evidence required for a verdict. In criminal cases it's, beyond a reasonable doubt, whereas in civil cases the test is does the, preponderance of the evidence, weigh more heavily, pro or con.

reply to post by ADVISOR


I loved the read. Star & Flag.

reply to post by ADVISOR


Well, as far as splashy cover-ups go, Blackwater/Xe is the top of the heap.

See, I will always and forever refer to them as Blackwater/Xe, because they changed their name to try inadequately avoid the spotlight after all of their other fiascoes, not to avoid conspiracy theorists, but to avoid the mainstream populace who were seeing their name pop up more and more in connection with gross negligence, gross malfeasance, and gross behavior in general.

While I will respect your thoughts on the "Private Military Contractors", ADVISOR, I cannot necessarily agree with you though, because I do not see them as anything more than mercenaries, plain and simple.

They are hired for one purpose, and one purpose only, to bypass the usual system of checks and balances, which upholds the law and the letter of the law, which creates a balance, whether it is fair or not, is irrelevant, a balance is needed within this world, otherwise when that balance is upended one way, it grossly topples over the other end.

Yes, war is Hell, but so is life, so I for one do not believe we should have ever gotten involved in Iraq to begin with, we should never gotten involved in what equals the "Police Action" of Vietnam, in the Middle East. The real reason we are in the Middle East is because people at The Pentagon and Department of Defense wanted to pay back Russia for Vietnam, and it is at the cost of our soldiers, and yes mercenaries, lives.

Upon reading all of these books and researching, cross-referencing, and doing some digging, I believe there never was a reason for us to be in Iraq for any other reason than for the oil, thanks in part to the stirring up of the Middle East due to Russia and the United States during the Cold War through Operation Cyclone.

This was done merely to savage the Great Russian Bear for the nonsense and stupidity of the war in Vietnam as a means to force a violent payback through a war of attrition at the cost of Afghani lives, which is what lead to September 11th.

In my esitmation, if none of this had happened, then the Twin Towers would have never fallen, no money would have been manipulated out of Congress through the Washington D.C. think-tank Project for the New American Century, and a lot of lives, civilian, military, and mercenary would not have needlessly been wasted for the corrupt bastards in Washington D.C. to make more money wallowing in oil, snuggling up with the Al Saud family, and fighting over territory that is not ours.

The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century

Amazon Review :

The bin Ladens are famous for spawning the world's foremost terrorist and building one of the Middle East's foremost corporate dynasties.

Pulitzer Prize–winner Coll (Ghost Wars) delivers a sprawling history of the multifaceted clan, paying special attention to its two most emblematic members.

Patriarch Mohamed's eldest son, Salem, was a caricature of the self-indulgent plutocrat: a flamboyant jet-setter dependent on the Saudi monarchy, obsessed with all things motorized (he died crashing his plane after a day's joy-riding atop motorcycle and dune-buggy) and forever tormenting his entourage with off-key karaoke.

Coll presents quite a contrast with an unusually nuanced profile of Salem's half-brother Osama, a shy, austere, devout man who nonetheless shares Salem's egomania.

Other bin Ladens crowd Coll's narrative with the eye-glazing details of their murky business deals, messy divorces and ill-advised perfume lines and pop CDs.

Beneath the clutter one discerns an engrossing portrait of a family torn between tradition and modernity, conformism and self-actualization, and desperately in search of its soul.

Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001

Amazon Review :

Steve Coll's Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 offers revealing details of the CIA's involvement in the evolution of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the years before the September 11 attacks.

From the beginning, Coll shows how the CIA's on-again, off-again engagement with Afghanistan after the end of the Soviet war left officials at Langley with inadequate resources and intelligence to appreciate the emerging power of the Taliban.

He also demonstrates how Afghanistan became a deadly playing field for international politics where Soviet, Pakistani, and U.S. agents armed and trained a succession of warring factions.

At the same time, the book, though opinionated, is not solely a critique of the agency.

Coll balances accounts of CIA failures with the success stories, like the capture of Mir Amal Kasi.

Coll, managing editor for the Washington Post, covered Afghanistan from 1989 to 1992.

He demonstrates unprecedented access to records of White House meetings and to formerly classified material, and his command of Saudi, Pakistani, and Afghani politics is impressive.

He also provides a seeming insider's perspective on personalities like George Tenet, William Casey, and anti-terrorism czar, Richard Clarke ("who seemed to wield enormous power precisely because hardly anyone knew who he was or what exactly he did for a living").

Coll manages to weave his research into a narrative that sometimes has the feel of a Tom Clancy novel yet never crosses into excess.

While comprehensive, Coll's book may be hard going for those looking for a direct account of the events leading to the 9-11 attacks.

The CIA's 1998 engagement with bin Laden as a target for capture begins a full two-thirds of the way into Ghost Wars, only after a lengthy march through developments during the Carter, Reagan, and early Clinton Presidencies.

But this is not a critique of Coll's efforts; just a warning that some stamina is required to keep up.

Ghost Wars is a complex study of intelligence operations and an invaluable resource for those seeking a nuanced understanding of how a small band of extremists rose to inflict incalculable damage on American soil.

Blank Check: The Pentagon's Black Budget

Library Journal : Amazon Review :

In this book based on his Pulitzer Prize-winning series of articles for the Philadelphia Inquirer , journalist Weiner probes the way the Pentagon has used secret budgets to fund huge military programs.

This has grown to the point that there are now more than 100 multimillion- and multibillion-dollar weapons systems, many of them nuclear weapons designed to fight and win World Wars III and IV, built without the awareness of the public or even the Congress.

Weiner takes a close look at programs such as the Stealth bomber and provides fascinating detail from Congressional testimony.

The thesis of the book--that secrecy in government military programs is antithetical to democracy--is well documented and hugely important.

As the Cold War draws to a close and military budgets come under attack, the public and Congress may tend to forget the defense establishment's inclination toward secrecy and self-perpetuation.

Weiner's book serves as a timely reminder that this would be unwise.

Highly recommended.

- Jennifer Scarlott, World Policy Inst., New York

The Pentagon's New Map: War and Peace in the Twenty-first Century

Amazon Review :

This bold and important book strives to be a practical "strategy for a Second American Century."

In this brilliantly argued work, Thomas Barnett calls globalization "this country’s gift to history" and explains why its wide dissemination is critical to the security of not only America but the entire world.

As a senior military analyst for the U.S. Naval War College, Barnett is intimately familiar with the culture of the Pentagon and the State Department (both of which he believes are due for significant overhauls).

He explains how the Pentagon, still in shock at the rapid dissolution of the once evil empire, spent the 1990s grasping for a long-term strategy to replace containment.

The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Barnett argues, revealed the gap between an outdated Cold War-era military and a radically different one needed to deal with emerging threats.

He believes that America is the prime mover in developing a "future worth creating" not because of its unrivaled capacity to wage war, but due to its ability to ensure security around the world.

Further, he believes that the U.S. has a moral responsibility to create a better world and the way he proposes to do that is by bringing all nations into the fold of globalization, or what he calls connectedness.

Eradicating disconnectedness, therefore, is "the defining security task of our age."

His stunning predictions of a U.S. annexation of much of Latin America and Canada within 50 years as well as an end to war in the foreseeable future guarantee that the book will be controversial.

And that's good.

The Pentagon's New Map deserves to be widely discussed.

Ultimately, however, the most impressive aspects of the book is not its revolutionary ideas but its overwhelming optimism.

Barnett wants the U.S. to pursue the dream of global peace with the same zeal that was applied to preventing global nuclear war with the former Soviet Union.

High-level civilian policy makers and top military leaders are already familiar with his vision of the future—this book is a briefing for the rest of us and it cannot be ignored.

--Shawn Carkonen

Well, whether it is military, or mercenary, I can see that Smedley Butler was correct after all, War is A Racket.

Then again, I have known that all of my life, without money, wars cannot be fought.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/aadc7d71564b.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 10-11-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Thank you Asktheanimals for this post. You tell the truth at a time when truth is hard to find in your country. It means a lot to me. It's Americans like you on this forum that keep me from screaming and running off to find another forum.

Lately I have been seeing far too many threads and posts by US members revealing their deeply ingrained xenophobia, racism, and lack of care for anyone or anything beyond your borders. However, you have managed single-handedly to give me hope that Thom Hartmann and Bernie Sanders are not the only Great Americans still out there.

I wish you and yours health and happiness in the difficult years ahead.

reply to post by ADVISOR


Thank you for your post. S&F. "Blackwater" by Jeremy Scahill is a must read.

Advisor I have gained respect for your thoughts and oppinions, your insight. It is surprising that more have not acknowledged this post:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You have been there, you have seen things with a unique perspective and it saddens me that which you have to report.

Is it possible for some of the money to create opportunity for the last survivors? Can a new infrastructure come of this? A real one I mean whereby they truly begin to rebuild and place closure on the death and dying of their country, their lives?

Each man woman and child should be paid until they can get up and on their feet.

Don't their oil fields help create any revenue for them? Even if they were taken over by Haliburton and others, shouldnt the UN force a portion of the money to remain in their country?

It is time for solutions and anywhere money can come from is going to help. If wrong was done in the name of war whether covert or not, then let it be paid and move on.

Good thread,man S&F for ya!Xe/Blackwater are trying to buy their way outta trouble it's not surprising they realize that the people are beginning to learn just how they do business.

Good Morning America just mentioned this "bribe money", as being approximate $1 million being set aside.

Looked on their website for a link to the reference, but it was mentioned just 5-8 minutes prior to this posting.

Interesting, did it take them this long to verify the story, or did they just now find out about it. Or perhaps, seeing how it has been mentioned in other circles they wanted to be one of the first discussing it as well?

Not easy to say, but I would like to hear more on this from my fellow ATSers perspective.

reply to post by ADVISOR


Well, I cannot answer the question you asked, ADVISOR, not until I do some more digging.

I can however supply a White House Press Conference where Blackwater/Xe is mentioned.

White House Press Conference : 8/20/09


It is about 13 minutes into the Press Conference, and James Brady is asked a rather peculiar question from a reporter in regards to Blackwater/Xe still working for the Obama Administration.

I was laughing hard at how he dodged the question.

I was looking for your Good Morning America segment when I found it.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
The Administration is afraid of Xe filing a breach of contract suit against the US.Government why else would they keep these clowns around if not out of fear of legal action?



[edit on 053030p://5226 by mike dangerously]

reply to post by mike dangerously


Of course, mike dangerously, they're afraid for their money.

Blackwater 'set up $1m hush fund for Iraq'

Quote from : Blackwater 'set up $1m hush fund for Iraq'


Former top executives at US security company Blackwater Worldwide have claimed it approved secret payments of around $1 million in an attempt to buy off angry Iraqi officials after Blackwater guards shot dead 17 civilians in Nisoor Square, Baghdad, it was reported today.

They could give a rat's fuzz behind about the people who died.

At this point, there is nothing I wouldn't believe about Blackwater/Xe. Every time any light is shined in their direction what we see is disgusting. (murder, rape, human traffiking)

Everyone knows and has known how horrible they are yet nothing happens?!

MADNESS!