Why did the Catholics change the ten commandments ?

reply to post by karl 12


Excellent point and thanks for brining that up . Remember Moses was raised and educated as an Egyptian of royal blood . Moses , if raised as an Egyptian he would have also been aware of this .

reply to post by Max_TO


Thank you.

My comment on bickering was not intended to be a comment on this thread and it's contents but rather the whole Catholic / Protestant relationship and debates between.

Protestants tend to have a quite unique and off centre version of Catholic practices and beliefs whilstt Catholics brook no criticism whatsoever about their faith.

Yet essentially they are still the same faith, allegedly believing in the the same core message.
However this tends to get lost in all the 'other stuff'.

And the funny thing is that the vast majority of those that would call themselves Catholic or Protestant do not know what the basic, fundamental differences between their denominations are!

reply to post by Freeborn


I believe that statement to be correct however I would also restate my earlier comment , I believe that most " believers " are unaware of there own faith and what is really said in the texts they claim to follow .

reply to post by Max_TO


The Church hasn't changed any of the Commandments. Idolatry is still a sin. There seems to be confusion about the Saints role in Catholicism. I think some people think that Santeria is somehow related to Catholicism, but it isn't. We DO NOT WORSHIP MARY NOR THE SAINTS we ask them for intercession. The same way the Centurion asked Jesus to cure his servant is one example of intercession. As for why we have images of Jesus and the saints? For the same reason we have pictures of our family members in our homes. To remember them and feel close to them, although they are just pictures its who are in those pictures who we love. Not the piece of wood, plaster or paper. Many times I've seen the family of soldiers hold on to a portrait as if it was the soldier himself. Im pretty sure they are aware that the portrait is not their loved one, but they keep it and sometimes embrace it to feel close to them.

Anybody that says he or she is Catholic and has worshipeed Mary or The Saints is lying. We only worhip God.

As was said Protestant movement came much later. They changed it. It is all based on the Jewish writings anyway.

Trivial things like kill - murder is just translation, also specific. You are allowed to kill (for food) whereas murder denotes 'your own kind' so to speak. If you are to take literally 'thou shalt not kill' means you cant go fishing!

You cant just believe everything a protestant says about a catholic and vise versa, well with all religions talk about another really. Catholics do not worship saints and such but as was said in the movie Religulous, often their names come up more than saying God or Jesus!

Personally I think the image of the cross is disgusting because it represent Roman authority and Jesus' suffering, but thats just me. I am certainly not typical.

Originally posted by Max_TO
Also worth noting , the service didn't really cover the bible at all .

Thats because it was a baptism.


reply to post by eight bits

Amen!

Originally posted by Freeborn
then maybe, just maybe, the Christian movement could become a force of good in the world, something that, imo, it has never been.

The one thing the vast majority of Christians seem to forget is that it is the acts and deeds of man upon which he will be judged, not on his observance of obsure and man made codes and practices.

Have you not looked into this? Have you not seen just what Christians as a whole have done? Here's a couple of examples, and I repeat ONLY a couple.....

Operation Blessing International has provided hunger relief, disaster relief, medical aid and community development to more than 192.8 million people in 96 countries and all 50 states, providing goods and services valued at more than $1.2 billion.

More details of their world aid

Another site showing Christian disaster relief.

This is just a drop in the bucket. Christians unite to do more good than most any other organization.

Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by karl 12

 

Excellent point and thanks for brining that up . Remember Moses was raised and educated as an Egyptian of royal blood . Moses , if raised as an Egyptian he would have also been aware of this .

Max_TO, thanks for the reply -I wasn't aware of that and well...Moses
just conveniently plagiarizing them sounds far more plausible than the alternative.

I've also read that the Egyptians in turn borrowed these rules from
Hammurabi's code - a law code enacted by the sixth Babylonian king Hammurabi.

Link:
en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers.

Originally posted by DarkElvis
reply to post by Max_TO

 

The Church hasn't changed any of the Commandments. Idolatry is still a sin. There seems to be confusion about the Saints role in Catholicism. I think some people think that Santeria is somehow related to Catholicism, but it isn't.

umm, where did the carribean people get the names and images of the apostles and such? How do catholics define worshiping idols to other people groups, when Catholics themselves are always bowing down in front of an image or statue of a person's likeness? There is a reason that the 1st & 2nd commandement are the 1st and 2nd.

We DO NOT WORSHIP MARY NOR THE SAINTS we ask them for intercession. The same way the Centurion asked Jesus to cure his servant is one example of intercession.

So you are equating asking God Himself for something, to asking a dead person, who has no ability to even hear your prayers? Even if they could hear you, why would their intercession be any more important than someone living? Are we not forbidden to communicate with the dead because any spirit roaming the earth, that is not glorfying God, is a demon? But that is beside the point, why even bother when Jesus provided us a means to be reconciled to God w/o a middle-man other than Himself? (You know that whole death on the cross event, which is the central theme of the faith)

reply to post by karl 12

Also to add that the Jews added many tenets of their religion while under Babylonian slavery - including many satanic parts - but as a whole they were influenced by many religions/customs around andbefore them, usually adding and adapting them however they see fit.

Same thing with Christianity, for example Christmas is just the Norse holiday of Jul (which we still call it in Norwegian) and Easter is from some other religion pagan day.

Islam is like that too they have a lot of traditions from before, Zoroastrianism and such.

reply to post by Max_TO


obvious troll is obvious

Second obvious line

reply to post by StopComplaining


That's just not true and I question your reasons for saying it. The Catholic 1st commandment forbids idol worship.

"I am the Lord thy God, thall not have strange gods before me"

Even tho there is no mention of idols in the catholic version it is still taught to not worship idols. there isnt a cover up by the church so they can cover their ass and allow the worship of the pope or saints. They dont take out the original 10 commandments out of the old testament and the teachings in scholl or in church still tell you to not worship idols.

The 1 commandment basically says this and the second commandment from the O.T. 10 commandments basically just repeats this, whereas the 10th seems to try and fit 2 statements into 1. which in the catholic version is split up.

The Jews had "graven images" all over the place...adorning their temple inside and out. Obviously not a violation of Gods command when the Jews did it so why condemn Catholics. Look, if you're an iconoclast, fine whatever but the Christian church has already fought this battle and made up it's mind so let's not start destroying icons and statues or tearing down paintings and the like.

As for the Saints...okay so the protesters think that it's wrong to pray to the saints because they're dead and it's idolatry. Fine, go your own way as you always have. But guess what, Catholics don't believe that and you're just going to have to deal with it. Death does not separate a Christian from the Body of Christ, his Church....if you believe it does fine go ahead...but the Church is made up of all, the dead and the living because death has no sting. And if you think it's wrong to ask fellow Christians for assistance just because they've passed on fine, but that makes for a slightly less magnificent faith if you ask me.

I am grateful that the OP hasn't devolved much from it's original intent.

A fair question is presented here.

But in the name of offering some alternative angles to those considering the topic I must ask, as I once asked as a child.

How do we KNOW what the Ten Commandments are really? They are lost in the Ark of the Covenant no?

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to seek the actual commandments than to debate which priests' club interpreted and published in which way?

In the end, the argument presupposes that scribes directed by their esteemed masters (in some cases 'owners') wrote down what they were told to write - and of course what they were told to write was 'true,' correct?

Yet we are supposedly blessed with physical evidence of the word of God written, according to legend (?) by God himself.

Maybe that should be the focus of determining what is true and what is not. Find the Ark, find the Commandments, - end the question.

Just trying to shake things us a bit.





[edit on 5-11-2009 by Maxmars]

reply to post by Max_TO


The Commandments were Jewish tribal laws. Man imagined, man made, man written and then manhandled through time by various groups. Why re-invent the wheel when you can rewrite the Jewish crap to fit your agenda?

"for I The Lord your God am a jealous God" Oh really?

The all knowing, all powerful creator of everything is jealous? I don't think so. Men are jealous. Men want blind obedience. Men like to eliminate the competition. If the god of the Jews was jealous this can only be understood to mean there were actually other gods in competition with him for the hearts and minds of the Jews. This is one of the many ways the commandments give away that they are man-made and not divine. There were no other gods. There were only other men with statues of who they thought ruled the universe and the head Jews did not want to lose numbers to more inviting "golden" figures. The creator of the universe would not have let them wander off to follow a bobble head doll. "His" presence would have been self-evident to everyone, not just the Jewish priests and elders. Everybody would have seen and heard him not just Moses among the boulders at the top of a mountain where nobody else can see him carving stone. "Ta-da! Look what I made in shop class!"

The reason it (#2) was changed is the same reason it was written in the first place to control the thoughts of other men. When the "Church of Rome" changed it to the lord's name in vain or whatever, it was to keep the followers fearful of openly discussing and dissing "god" and perhaps uncovering the secret...... there is no "god". "Hey, I told god to piss off and I'm still here! Now what?" Control, control and more control. Jews like control, Romans like control, Protestants like control, everybody likes control. While I'm thinking of it pass the remote, the game's starting.

But hey, how about number 6, "You shall not kill." More control. Whatever you do don't start thinking and kill the guy that wrote that pile of BS in number 2! That's why the Catholics didn't change number 6! I think they changed 10 though, that coveting your neighbor's ox and ass was extremely passe' even two thousand years ago. But his wife? Well that's an age old story and it never ends well. The commandments were definately not divine in origin but that doesn't mean you can't find morsels of wisdom among the crappolla. And that confuses those that don't think for themselves. But this is all just my opinion and I'm just a guy that likes controlling others so beware!

Originally posted by Ridhya
Also to add that the Jews added many tenets of their religion while under Babylonian slavery - including many satanic parts -

Ridhya thanks for the reply,I'm sure they did - there also seems to be a bit of a preoccupation with the Caananite demon Molech -his name pops up in these other OT laws where it lists legitimate reasons for 'true beleivers' to kill other human beings:

Getting stoned to death in the bible:


Getting stoned if you touch the holy things:

Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13




Getting stoned if you take accursed things:

Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26




Getting stoned if you curse or blaspheme:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16




Getting stoned if you're raped and don't scream:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24




Getting stoned if you're an ox and gore a human:

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28




Getting stoned if you marry when not a virgin:

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21




Getting stoned if you worship other gods:

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10




Getting stoned if you disobey your father:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21




Getting stoned if you're a wizard or a witch:

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27




Getting stoned if you give Molech your kids:

Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2




Getting stoned if you're a sabbath breaker:

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56




Getting stoned if you curse the dictator:

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Cheers.

reply to post by kingofmd


Hopefully this will help to answer your questions. It's not an either-or thing, and nobody is equating asking God himself for something to asking others to pray along with us. But we do both. There are times when not only do we ask God for help or healing for ourselves or a loved one, we also ask others to add their prayers to ours (for example, when we have a prayer concern and put someone on the prayer list at church or in an online forum).

In the same way, we ask the saints in Heaven to add their prayers to ours. In the Bible, it says that the prayer of a righteous person "availeth much." So, the prayers of the saints to God on our behalf would be even more effective than the prayers we who are still here on earth offer for each other because the saints are the ones who most definitely are righteous and have done God's will.



[edit on 5-11-2009 by Ariel]

Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by StopComplaining

 

LOL how did that go over ?

Last time I was at a Catholic church ( was for a friends baptism ) they passed the collection plate around two times . The first time was about 30 min into the service and then again just before the service ended .

Also worth noting , the service didn't really cover the bible at all .

You must have been to the wrong Catholic church then. They do indeed cover the bible- with TWO readings and the gospel message plus the homily given by the priest.

reply to post by karl 12

BOOK OF THE DEAD

I do not tamper with divine balance

I stop not a god when he comes forth

I do not offend the god who is at the helm

(Egyptians had no Sabbath)

I do not harm my kinsmen

I do not kill

I am not an adulterer

I do not rob

I do not tell lies instead of truth

I do no wrong or mischief to others

close but a little off

I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . . I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage . . .
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property. I have not blocked the God at his processions

You would recite this in your trial with Osiris and his 42 judges and if your heart was lighter than a feather (not heavy with sin) you were a-okay.

I think who wrote what first means little i think it is all just a moral story and good rules to live by.

Originally posted by kingofmd

It's evident you're trying to antagonize just for the "fun" of it. I was explaining the OP what is true and what are lies that other non-Catholic groups have maliciously spread by their flawed reinterpretation of what Catholics do.

The images of saints were actually usurped by Santeria leaders and practitioners from Catholicism. Those who practiced Santeria used these images as a way of having a physical image or reminder of their gods, who by the way, have different names and have no relation to the Saints they represent. As for the "bowing down" etc, you completely missed the point I was making with the example I gave about the "soldier's portrait". It was self explanatory.

One more thing, save your condescending words about the Commandments. I know them well and I keep them as best as I can. The same goes for "equating asking God" for this or that. I also gave another example about intercession and you're just twisting everything around. That condescending and "holier than thou" attitude is what gives us Christians a bad name when we are asked about our beliefs.

Again, my replies were to clarify the OP's questions or misconceptions about Catholicism since it is evident the OP was misinformed.