The Ancients Series | Part I: Sumerians

reply to post by serbsta


O-K, they say 95. Which, as always, is subject to change as we learn more. They also say Jupiter is 318, which immediately gnaws at the back of my mind...

edit to add: Yes, 318 is important, the rounded value of the diameter of a circle when the circumference is 1000, and figures prominently in gematria. Jupiter's influence is profoundly felt at the spiritual level with its J/E mass relation which is actually the isopsephia and solar symbolism for Helios! When 1 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000/3.14151 (not 3.14159) the dividend is 318.318 which I find curious in itself.

[edit on 11/30/2009 by Matyas]

reply to post by Matyas


I'll be honest with you, I'm not very good with numbers and i can't really make much out of it. This conversation has steered off track so much that i don't even know how we started talking about geometry.

reply to post by serbsta


Well, yes, you're right about that. Its how I see the world, everything has a numerical value with its corresponding relationship with space. I am a visual person. I am an artist of this variety:

en.wikipedia.org...

My work barely hangs on a gallery wall for a day before someone buys it. It is very irritating because I have not been able to keep any examples around. It apparently is also very hard for most artists, but it comes to me as inspiration. Over a long time, then suddenly.

I am always looking for those numerical and geometrical connections and patterns, and often get carried away. Others have expressed frustration with my enthusiasm, and for a while I get it under check, until I break out in squares and circles, and the cycle repeats itself.

I can try to keep it in check for your thread. It has been very illuminating for me, I have realized more here than I have for a long time on ATS. No doubt it is the people, so far everyone here has impressed me as being mature and civil, a good crowd. So you know, that is where I am coming from.

Originally posted by Matyas

I can try to keep it in check for your thread. It has been very illuminating for me, I have realized more here than I have for a long time on ATS. No doubt it is the people, so far everyone here has impressed me as being mature and civil, a good crowd. So you know, that is where I am coming from.

Strongly agree with you there. I have learned so much in this thread and it has only fueled further interest. Unfortunately we seem to have lost undo's amazing insight into this topic, for the time being hopefully.

Originally posted by serbsta...The oldest reference to the Trinity that I've come across is that of Hermes Trismegistus, being 'thrice wise'...

This illustrates that trinity.

It is not the story framework. It is the skeletal structure. Whether or not divinely inspired or written by men is irrelevant. The manuscript becomes illuminated with a living dimension in which the mysteries are not only preserved but flow as the pulse of life in all things, as mensur, numerus, pondus. Recently it has been discovered atoms also do this.

I keep Hermes Trismegistus as Thoth in my study. I understand the ibis' diet consisted largely of snakes, did it not? Or else it merely killed them in abundance.

Going back onto topic, I wonder if there were a Sumerian trinity and what it could have been depicted as. What do you think?

The obvious choice would be Anu, Enki, Enlil.

hiddenrecords.com suggests Enki, Ninki, Marduk.

Originally posted by Ayrton
The obvious choice would be Anu, Enki, Enlil.

hiddenrecords.com suggests Enki, Ninki, Marduk.

I would tend to side with the first, if any, since Marduk was not a Sumerian deity. It would be strange though, the the trinity was completely physical as Anu, Enki and Enlil arent described as being metaphysical in origin. Then again maybe a metaphysical element wasn't required.

The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank... whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’ (316).

www.heraldmag.org...

Originally posted by serbsta

Originally posted by Matyas
I can try to keep it in check for your thread. It has been very illuminating for me, I have realized more here than I have for a long time on ATS. No doubt it is the people, so far everyone here has impressed me as being mature and civil, a good crowd. So you know, that is where I am coming from.

Strongly agree with you there. I have learned so much in this thread and it has only fueled further interest. Unfortunately we seem to have lost undo's amazing insight into this topic, for the time being hopefully.

I also agree with the two of you on the level of inspiration from the debates here. It is from the knowledge gained here that I have begun an understanding which is beyond words.

Math is a type of language which both are connected to geometry. Geometry is used in architectural design so this at least suggests a connection between language and artistic design. I see us approaching these questions from different directions which combined together create an answer. There are no words that would accurately describe my feelings on what we are doing here.

Originally posted by Devino

I also agree with the two of you on the level of inspiration from the debates here. It is from the knowledge gained here that I have begun an understanding which is beyond words.

Amon to that.

Originally posted by Devino

Math is a type of language which both are connected to geometry. Geometry is used in architectural design so this at least suggests a connection between language and artistic design. I see us approaching these questions from different directions which combined together create an answer. There are no words that would accurately describe my feelings on what we are doing here.

Hmmm... even though i have low skill in mathematics, what would the implications be if it were discovered that separate civilizations developed similar mathematical methods and procedures of construction? Further, say we manage to find actual relics/books with mathematical equations (im unaware of a find such as this, yet). Maths/geometry is universal in my opinion.

Originally posted by serbsta...what would the implications be if it were discovered that separate civilizations developed similar mathematical methods and procedures of construction? Further, say we manage to find actual relics/books with mathematical equations (im unaware of a find such as this, yet). Maths/geometry is universal in my opinion.

Yes, you are correct regarding the universal aspect. Bart did it for the moons of Mars. Furthermore the Sumerians created the actual relics/books with mathematical equations as you see from these links I provided. As I recall Bart goes into greater detail in his other work, and his credentials are impeccable.

edit to add these are his notes on his commentary, which is highly relevant. It shows the Sumerians were well acquainted with radioisotopes. But before anyone poo-poos this, let me remind our audience that a certain process of metallurgy discovered in China over 2000 years ago was recently rediscovered...

Weapons found in burial pits dating from the late 3rd century BC Qin Dynasty of the Terracotta Army near Xi'an, China have been analyzed by archaeologists. Although buried more than 2,000 years ago, the ancient bronze tips of crossbow bolts and swords found at the site showed no sign of corrosion, because the bronze was coated with chromium.[20]

source.

Therefore such advancement is not without precedent.

[edit on 12/4/2009 by Matyas]

Originally posted by Matyas

Originally posted by serbsta...what would the implications be if it were discovered that separate civilizations developed similar mathematical methods and procedures of construction? Further, say we manage to find actual relics/books with mathematical equations (im unaware of a find such as this, yet). Maths/geometry is universal in my opinion.

Yes, you are correct regarding the universal aspect. Bart did it for the moons of Mars. Furthermore the Sumerians created the actual relics/books with mathematical equations as you see from these links I provided. As I recall Bart goes into greater detail in his other work, and his credentials are impeccable.

The logic contained within the information from your links is lost to me, I have tried to read them but I quickly fail to see the supposed connections made. Rather than critique your links maybe you could summarize them for me so I might understand their points. All that I could gather was that the orbital and rotational motions of the planets and moons are linked to frequencies and this is connected to...the sounds of languages or letters? I am interested in orbital mechanics and the frequencies of different types of energy but I got lost in those links.

As far as math being "discovered" at different times and in different locations just look at the history of calculus, was it Newton or Archimedes that invented calculus or perhaps did they both just rediscover a natural understanding of the Universe.

reply to post by Devino


Those links don't do the connection with languages (as such). But we know it works for the Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and even English. It would be true for Sumerian by extension. I am sure that has been studied somewhere.

What I was attempting to show is the Sumerians had equations which linked orbital mechanics (macro) with radioactivity (micro), and it was my assumption if it is universal, then the languages follow.

Each language is a lifetime of study by its own right. And then some.

reply to post by Matyas


I'd be interested to read some evidence for this. It sounds fascinating, has someone authored publications which touched upon the subject?

Originally posted by serbsta
reply to post by Matyas

 

I'd be interested to read some evidence for this. It sounds fascinating, has someone authored publications which touched upon the subject?

I'd wager not, since the Sumerians had no such understanding.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


I'd wager you cannot make that wager, since you have no such understanding of the Sumerians.

Time buries its clues, and there is precious little that can be done, unless you are a born prodigy like Dr. Jordan. Even then "superpowers" find their limit.

But good try reducing our ancestors to savagery!

edit to add or somewhere closer to savagery. Absolutes in these matters is a death knell. Any theory must be kept open ended since changes are inevitable

I have been recently active on the GP (Great Pyramid) threads and discovered much to my astonishment that such miraculous construction was entirely due to the development of Stone Age and Copper Age technology. That took even more brains to do then than it would take now.

So I submit to you kind sir, it is us whose understanding of them is so limited. Therefore my wager.

[edit on 12/17/2009 by Matyas]

Originally posted by Matyas
reply to post by Harte

 

I'd wager you cannot make that wager, since you have no such understanding of the Sumerians.

Time buries its clues, and there is precious little that can be done, unless you are a born prodigy like Dr. Jordan. Even then "superpowers" find their limit.

I see.
Hmmm. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Sumerians didn't have two heads each. So, they must have had two heads then!

But good try reducing our ancestors to savagery!

What a shabby and dingy straw man you have constructed in the above feeble attempt at logic.

Absolutes in these matters is a death knell. Any theory must be kept open ended since changes are inevitable

Such as the theory that the Sumerians never existed and it's all a hoax perpetrated by Zahi Hawass.

I have been recently active on the GP (Great Pyramid) threads and discovered much to my astonishment that such miraculous construction was entirely due to the development of Stone Age and Copper Age technology. That took even more brains to do then than it would take now.

So I submit to you kind sir, it is us whose understanding of them is so limited. Therefore my wager.

I'm not that kind.

Please note that I agree that not everything about the Sumerians is known.
However, it is also true that not everything about Americans is known, and we're still here.

So, instead of relying on the mystic idea that "time buries... clues" as the reason that the following:

the Sumerians had equations which linked orbital mechanics (macro) with radioactivity (micro)

is true, why not provide us with even a single "equation," any equation at all about anything at all that can be expressed mathematically, that the Sumerians developed. After all, the mathematics developed by the people of Sumer is quite well known and understood, whether you yourself are aware of this or not.

If you cannot, then I must ask what, exactly, was your basis for making the above astonishing statement?

Harte

Originally posted by HarteThere is no evidence whatsoever that the Sumerians didn't have two heads each. So, they must have had two heads then!

Don't be silly. Using an extreme example is just as weak as my "dingy strawman" argument, which I feel is adequate. In this situation.

Such as the theory that the Sumerians never existed and it's all a hoax perpetrated by Zahi Hawass.

Well that is new to me, unless you are being sarcastic.

I'm not that kind.

Kind of what, close minded or a welsher? Hopefully neither. Or perhaps its the "sir" part. I assumed that, and I have been an ass before when it comes to gender. Accept my apologies if I was wrong.

Please note that I agree that not everything about the Sumerians is known. However, it is also true that not everything about Americans is known, and we're still here.

Granted as already given.

So, instead of relying on the mystic idea that "time buries... clues" as the reason

I see too. It is now a mystic idea that time erases knowledge. Maybe its in the Akashic Records of Light, that's where it all goes, right?

that the following:

the Sumerians had equations which linked orbital mechanics (macro) with radioactivity (micro)

is true, why not provide us with even a single "equation," any equation at all about anything at all that can be expressed mathematically, that the Sumerians developed. After all, the mathematics developed by the people of Sumer is quite well known and understood, whether you yourself are aware of this or not.

Aha, not so savage now? Why so?

If you cannot, then I must ask what, exactly, was your basis for making the above astonishing statement?

If you cannot be bothered to review my links, then why should I be bothered to repeat myself? Go in search of the injunction equations which Dr. Jordan spells out in his commentary.

Sorry, I must have missed your links.

I tend to skim over the more outlandish claims made here.

Not usually worth my time.

If you didn't make the claim - only related some other person's claim, and if you can't explain it yourself, then it's certainly not worth my time to pursue it.

Harte

reply to post by Matyas


Thanks for adding that link to my reading material.

That material is not confusing at all, in fact it explains a whole lot of things. I know there is a connection there, somewhere. There is certain truth in all things, it just lacks proper understanding.

Originally posted by Matyas

I see too. It is now a mystic idea that time erases knowledge. Maybe its in the Akashic Records of Light, that's where it all goes, right?

How on Earth are we meant to base a conversation on this though?

I hope that this thread can continue its discussion on concrete elements rather than the abstract in relation to Sumer.