gosh darn americans

What differentiates a selfless act from a selfish one though, is that while you may well benefit from the particular act, you do it because you want to, first and foremost. The fact that a particular act may end up benefiting you is secondary.

Coming from a purely karmic aspect, of course we are going to benefit when we do somebody else a solid. It's just a natural law of the universe. What you send out you get back threefold. It's the exact reverse of what you get if you go around screwing other people over.

You send goodness out there and that's what you get back. I find this to be so absolutely true in my daily life that it isn't even funny. I also notice the reverse, those who are nasty to me in some way do end up suffering for it. It's karmic justice and it makes up for the mostly opposite way our world treats it's human beings. The world of course oftentimes rewarding the bad, treachorous (sp?) behavior while invalidating the good works people do on behalf of their fellow humans.

But yes, Jonna..I have to agree with you regarding people not seeming to have much humanity these days. This is unfortunately very true. The only thing we have control over is ourselves, however and we can choose what vibes we send out there. Yes, I love Pisky, but I also care (probably way too much) for my fellow human beings out there. I can honestly say that whenever I do somebody a solid, I do it because I want to from a purely giving motive in my heart, not because I expect or want anything back. And yes, it benefits me and makes me feel good about myself as a human being, but that's only because, as I said before, that's simply karma at work.

KayEm:

I understand your viewpoint and am actually a bit jealous if karma works in your life, but I have never experienced it in a noticable way within mine. Perhaps what you are talking about I would consider as the positive feeling one receives when one believes that one has done something positive for someone else which brings me back to the whole selfless action theory.

You stated that the positive reaction to one's self when doing something positive for someone else is secondary to the intentions of the action in question. With what I have seen and experienced of the human race, I would have to say that this may in fact be the case, but only in the way of thinly veiled self reasoning because of the desire to believe that we do have some kind of humanity.

I may in deed be jaded because of my life experiences, but my life experiences are all that I have by which to formulate my line of reasoning.

Originally posted by Jonna

Perhaps what you are talking about I would consider as the positive feeling one receives when one believes that one has done something positive for someone else.

That's exactly what I was talking about, Jonna. It always boils down to what our hearts (guts, for those not spiritually-minded) ultimately tell us to do. It's always best to go with instinct and part of why I feel the world is in such a fooked up place is because far too many people go against that natural grain and do evils against their fellow man. And YES, I believe they suffer for it in the end because, as time goes on, they lose more and more of their soul, which makes them human. Not only that but they become more and more divorced from all which is natural.

There is a reason we feel good when we DO good, and #ty when we do somebody else wrong. These feelings are there to guide and teach us and when we ignore them and go about screwing other people over, I believe there comes a point where you cross over into the spiritually dead-soulless zone. Whether or not a person believes this makes no difference. The results are out there for all to see.

Kindness begets kindness.

This however should never be confused with turning the other cheek. Turning the other cheek only leaves you as a doormat for others to stomp on. Defending and asserting yourself is always important as is making known that you will NOT tolerate being screwed with.

I may in deed be jaded because of my life experiences, but my life experiences are all that I have by which to formulate my line of reasoning.

I totally understand why you feel this way, Jonna..believe me, as much as I strive to have positive and behave in a positive manner towards my fellow earthlings, there are times when I absolutely cannot STAND the human race and I sit and shake my head in disbelief at the things we do. The thing is, I know that change begins first in yourself and you are ultimately the only person you can control. So I try to do best in my daily endeavours. But oh yesssss...I am definitely not little miss perfect. People here would cringe (and probably have lol) at some of the rants I've had about people in general.



[Edited on 20-5-2004 by KayEm]

if we could just once stop pointing fingers at each other..i think that everyone and anyone, it doesnt matter if they are fat or rich could make a difference..maybe the thing rite now is..try to figure out sumthing that we could do even the simplest help or whatever..take the opportunity to help when it is given, donate money even it is just a dollar or a penny..slightest help make a lot of change..and im sure there are a lot more ways to help them..

however, here without sympathy or desire to help that wouldnot happen..maybe some would think ppl that are rich ignorant or whatever..but im sure it is not all..as long as ppl like you all, that are aware of what is happening and would want to help, do exist and remain good -hearted.

i agree with you jonna, human race has lost its humanity. for people that found unconditional love, that's great, they certainly have their humanity. but the rest of the world is in the dead-zone. so many wars wage over religious belief, ignorance and selfish gain. many people just don't understand each other as man to man. i bet alot of people in US still think islam is a country of war and conflict. if they only knew it is a religion of peace and beauty like other religion such as christianity. don't believe me? read the june 2002 national geographic.

right now, my belief is this "you and and you die". life is suffering. you can argue that things such as love and happiness can bring meanings, but in the end, you will realize that it just take the pain off a little bit. whatever we do, life is still suffering. it sucks

We are no better than the animals, despite what bible bashers may tell you. As for selfless acts, i agree, even a good deed is done to make oneself look and feel good. If giving to charity didnt give me a feeling of warmth that i am helping change someones life, i wouldnt do it. Its a dog eat dog world people and unfortunately thats the way it is. Its sucks but what can you do?

ive read through the posts and read what people had to say,and some of the things pissed me off,why should i make a donation to other countries,take the 9-11 thing for example,they want to come into are country be welcome,then bomb the twin towers,but when we go to one of there countries we are not only not welcome but get taken hostag and exacuted,and when we fight back we are still in the wrong,is that fair!?no,another example foreiners set up shop on just about every corner then send the money back to there country,and for the people that get where im coming from,get this,i was working as a temp doing factory work,one day at lunch and i started talking to this guy,i talling to him for about two minutes,he nodded his head while eating like he understood me,the guy next to him told me that he dont speak english,so i asked him how long the other guy lived in this country,he said 14 years.yea 14 years! and the guy cant speak a word of english,how fouled up is that,i only have one queston,have you ever been told you dont belong in the this country (USA) by some forien guy that barely speaks english?i have and thats not a joke either,
And as for people who get theres in the end,who cares! ive tried take the right path in life,do whats right but that got me nowhere but beat up,robbed,jumped and my life threatend,you can only take so much of that before you go crazy,so do what ya gotta do to survive,and i say if the world is up for grabs then get as much as you can.


[Edited on 21-5-2004 by Taurus]

Ummmm.... Taurus, i think you've gone a little off topic there. Fair enough you dont like immigrants (i dont see why not). I immigrated to where i live now, so do you not like me? I can see your not speaking english point as well.

But the topic is about how it isnt fair that people in other countries starve to death, while we got people in our developed countries that earn more than some countries GDP's. Is it fair that some people can indulge so much whilst others suffer? Its not just america, its Europe and Australia as well. But like we said, no its not fair, but life isnt fair.

This has nothing to do with 9/11 or politics, or race. Purely a matter of indulgence

Originally posted by specialasianX
Ummmm.... Taurus, i think you've gone a little off topic there. Fair enough you dont like immigrants (i dont see why not). I immigrated to where i live now, so do you not like me? I can see your not speaking english point as well.

But the topic is about how it isnt fair that people in other countries starve to death, while we got people in our developed countries that earn more than some countries GDP's. Is it fair that some people can indulge so much whilst others suffer? Its not just america, its Europe and Australia as well. But like we said, no its not fair, but life isnt fair.

This has nothing to do with 9/11 or politics, or race. Purely a matter of indulgence

so the world just come down to those who have more priviliage then others? if we have more privilage, shouldn't we help those who weren't born with it? lets forget about slefless deeds, even if its not selfless deed, then i think we should do it anymore. i understand some of you say the world it's "every man for himself", because i been through all that. but isn't there some things which can substain suffering? such as love and happiness?

Originally posted by specialasianX
We are no better than the animals, despite what bible bashers may tell you. As for selfless acts, i agree, even a good deed is done to make oneself look and feel good. If giving to charity didnt give me a feeling of warmth that i am helping change someones life, i wouldnt do it. Its a dog eat dog world people and unfortunately thats the way it is. Its sucks but what can you do?

With all due respect, Special...I have to disagree.

We ARE better then animals in the emotional/mental stakes anyway.


On another slant:

Why is it that the expression 'we are no better then the animals' always seems to get my back up ?

There is a faintly derotagory flavour to this comment IMO

This arguement is always spoken in the attitude that animals are naturally beneath us.


Uhhhh...they are NOT. IMO animals are oftentimes far better then our human counterparts. I leave it for you to figure out why.

By the way...I am the LAST person on this EARTH who is a bible thumper Just because a person is spiritual, doesn't mean he/she is a bible thumper. I can't stand Xtians anymore then the other guy (grrl..hee hee)

Originally posted by Taurus
ive read through the posts and read what people had to say,and some of the things pissed me off,why should i make a donation to other countries,

What exactly did you read in this thread that made you so mad?
Nobody is saying you should be making donations to other countries, especially out of guilt or because it makes you a bad person for not doing so. (At least I hope that isn't the message that is being pushed here, although I understand how that message could be taken from some of the things said in this thread.)

I believe the point of this thread is to show that the Quality of Human Life, like everything in this world, is measured in various ways depending upon one's perception. Regardless of one's perception however, life itself does include some degree of 'suffering' or in other words, an 'Unsatisfying' quality to it which is neither equal amongst all individuals nor is it perceived as being 'fair' amongst all individuals. The important thing is first to see and understand that 'fact of life' & we all have some collective part of it that we must deal with. In turn that realization should teaches 'compassion', although many times people only seem to learn 'resentment, hatred, anger, disgust, etc.' which is unfortunate. But, like we said, nowhere does it say 'Life is fair' or that the path to 'Enlightenment' and freedom from the bondage of human suffering would be easy.

take the 9-11 thing for example,they want to come into are country be welcome,then bomb the twin towers,but when we go to one of there countries we are not only not welcome but get taken hostag and exacuted,and when we fight back we are still in the wrong,is that fair!?no,another example foreigners set up shop on just about every corner then send the money back to there country,

"They" & "Those Foreigners" is a way of looking at the rest of the world from your Individual Perspective which is only to make YOUR LIFE more and more miserable. It's totally up to if you want to keep that view or not, as well as what comes along with choosing that view instead of another. However, all I ask is that you think about what you're getting from that choice. It would seem to me that having that perspective will only cause more strife in your life. The reason being is that as long as you group people into groups like 'They, Them, Those, Foreigners, Blacks, Hippies, Commies, and so forth', you are choosing to alienate yourself from the rest of humanity, one section at a time & using generalities as your means of classification.

You see Yourself as a man, an Individual who, hopefully, feels that you deserve Personal Recognition. Would it be correct to classify the full spectrum of who you are down to your Race, or Job, or Place of Birth, or Religion, or Status in Society? Do you also realize that the U.S.A. was created by Foreigners, has grown and prospered because of it's diversity of people and most importantly got it's strength by Constitutionally Recognizing & Protecting the idea of Humanity being treated Equally for Each Individual based only on them as a Person? Not a Rich Person, or White Person, or Tall Person or any other 'Classification of Generality'. Don't take what I'm saying here as anything other than 'The Importance of Recognizing All People as Individuals, with Individual Characteristics, Beliefs & Ideas, instead of simply Labeling 'People as Them'. If not, you will find that in the end, you have chosen to be against the entire world and even your own humanity, less you become one of 'Them' that you despise so much.

And as for people who get theres in the end,who cares! ive tried take the right path in life,do whats right but that got me nowhere but beat up,robbed,jumped and my life threatened,you can only take so much of that before you go crazy,so do what ya gotta do to survive,and i say if the world is up for grabs then get as much as you can.

Did you think that in a World where so many people and so many actions are done 'Wrong', that 'Doing the Right Thing' was going to be easy? I'm not trying to say that your experiences were therefor justified and that being robbed or threatened isn't a difficult thing to go through, it is obviously a definite form of 'suffering', no doubt. However, just because the road traveled is harsh and difficult to tread, it doesn't mean that it was the Wrong road to take. If you find that the answer is the world is up for grabs then get as much as you can.', then your resentment and anger toward 'Foreigners' or 'Terrorists' or whoever simply becomes the laughable rants of someone who is complaining because others have beaten him at his own game. Perhaps they are just following your same principle of 'getting as much as they can' even at the expense of others, the same way you have decided to do. Which brings up an interesting question you should ask yourself:
Could it be that 'They, Those Foreigners' and perhaps others who in your opinion are the 'Problem' in todays world, may actually have something in common with that part of you that you also do not like?
That your anger toward 'Their Way of Life' is so upsetting to you because you have chosen a similar 'Way of Living', after realizing how difficult it is to Live the Right Way?

You know, it is unlikely that you will ever be able to Change the Way other People Choose to Live, but it is very possible and rewarding to Change the Way You Choose to Live.

Live Well,
mOjOm

I know this is going to piss some people off but think about it before you flame. The reason these kids are dying is that their ecosystem can no longer sustain the amount of people living there. It has nothing to do with "goddamn Americans." Look at the desert, it has life there, sparce, but still there. It's sparce because there isn't much there. Now we have areas that have too many PEOPLE, and they're starving. They can't move, buy food so they must rely on others. That's no problem. I think that as a species, if it was just that, it wouldn't be a problem. But they continue to have more kids. You can't support 1, why have 7?

We had a well known charity at our door last month, I asked him, "Do you promote birth control?" "Yes" he said. "Do they practice it?" I wanted to know. "No, it's against their religion." So I'm thinking to myself, if I give money to alleviate the immediate need, all I'm doing is prolonging the situation and creating more starving children. The planet has decided that life will be sparce there. It is man trying to impose it's will on the planet. Guess what, it's been here a lot longer than we have, we can't beat that, no matter how much we wish we could.

Originally posted by intrepid
The reason these kids are dying is that their ecosystem can no longer sustain the amount of people living there. It has nothing to do with "goddamn Americans." Look at the desert, it has life there, sparce, but still there. It's sparce because there isn't much there. Now we have areas that have too many PEOPLE, and they're starving.

I was baptised Catholic but some years ago I realised that a pagan lifestyle free of guilt trips and confessions fit me better. If I feel the need to confess, I'll go straight to the top thank you very much, I don't need Father Ted or Father Jack to intercede for me.

I am against abortion except for when it is necessary to save the life of the mother. However, I can't see any problems with birth control. Until the sperm joins with the egg there can be no life. That's one of the problems I have with Catholicism - they won't allow birth control even though by denying it to their followers they are partly to be blamed for the amount of unwanted children in the world.

What I would ask the Pope is 'What's worse ? - using a condom or giving birth to a child who will have a crappy life because the parents can't afford to give him a decent one' ?

Originally posted by Pisky

What I would ask the Pope is 'What's worse ? - using a condom or giving birth to a child who will have a crappy life because the parents can't afford to give him a decent one' ?

very true, the only freedom these childrens will get is death. as gloomy as that sounds, that is the way of life

The last I heard, there is no penalty for success. If you work hard you will get whats coming to you. All you people who throw around the term "fat cat" need to check yourselves.

Reaaaaaaalllllllyyyyy, Beagle ?

I happen to know an awful LOT of people, including myself who work pretty damn hard and I don't see any of US getting what we deserve.

Quite the reverse in fact. It seems to me it's the ones doing the least amount of work, merely pushing pencils and sorting papers and flexing their bureaucratic muscles who are reaping the BIG rewards.

That "hard work will set you free" is a load of BS. It was also at the top of the entrance to concentration camps during Hitlers reign.

Hmmmmmm.....makes ya think, doesn't it ?

perfect example, bill gates

Originally posted by thebeagle
The last I heard, there is no penalty for success. If you work hard you will get whats coming to you. All you people who throw around the term "fat cat" need to check yourselves.

Bollocks !
I've been a systems programmer, worked on everything from mainframes to Vax minis and PC's. I was paid a hell of a lot for doing a job I enjoyed, and I don't consider my work to have been 'hard'.

However, I know people who have worked their goolies off just to survive, purely because they ended up working minimum wage.
Those people worked fecking hard, far harder than me. They would work and at the end of the shift would go to bed and sleep and in the morning they'd go back to work. They had no lives whatsoever.
Meanwhile, I worked, had fun, drank, had more fun and more drink then went to bed.

So don't tell me that the harder you work, the more you get because its utter bollocks. I was on the right side of the tracks, but I know that there are many other who werent.

The average McDonald's employee does far more physical 'work' than I did when I was in systems.

'Arbeit macht frei ?' ... bull# !!!

KayEm, it is very true what you have said about "karma". The saying " What comes around, goes around ", fits into every human-beings life, every day, weather a person realize/notices it or not.

To others I want to say this, the children are our future, no matter what their nationality happens to be, or where they live. It is not humain to let children starve and it is very heartless to do so. If every adult on this planet were to donate $1.00 to a charity for children, every week or month, then no child would starve or be ill .

Do I donate to charities ? YES I DO ! DO I donate because it makes me feel good/better ? NO, I donate because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO ! Am I rich (fat cat), or comfortably well-off ? NOPE, I have a very small income, I just barely get by , but I still give, when asked and if I have any money to give. There have been many a times I've given my last ,...... to charity for children because I beleive a child needs it more than I do. I can fend for myself, if need be,... where as a child can not.

Lastly, I hate seeing food going to waste, when others are starving. When my fiance or one of my kids take me out for dinner at an "all you can eat, restront and I see adults and teenagers take plates full of food back to their tables, then only take a couple bites of everything on their plates then push the plate to the side and go up to get a different plate-full of other foods to bring back to just take a few nibbles of the food they've gotten and push that plate off to the side, again,.... that gets me very
, because it is wasteful , when their are starving people in this world that would be more than thankful to eat from those plates of touched foods that others so mindlessly waste , , these types of people are so totally unbeleiveable.

When I eat, I only take what I know I will eat and not waste .

Originally posted by nanna_of_6
Lastly, I hate seeing food going to waste, when others are starving. When my fiance or one of my kids take me out for dinner at an "all you can eat, restront and I see adults and teenagers take plates full of food back to their tables, then only take a couple bites of everything on their plates then push the plate to the side and go up to get a different plate-full of other foods to bring back to just take a few nibbles of the food they've gotten and push that plate off to the side, again,.... that gets me very

Me too !!! ... If I cook something and make a mistake (ie can't finish it) I give it to the dog. He needs to eat too (and enjoys my cooking ) . There is no way I will throw food away. Its ridiculous.