Sutures and needles

Originally posted by calstorm
Superglue does work well for cuts about a 1/4 inch deep. I couldn't be sure on anything deeper than that.

That is right... But someone else where on ATS once pointed out that the medical superglue is slightly different... People can have a reaction to the standard stuff - not everyone, but man if your out in the sticks and you make things much worse you wont be a happy bunny. - I think a bit more reading would be required before you try sticking your hand back together with Locktite!


To the OP - have you had a thought as to what analogue for human flesh you would use to practice your stitching? I think an orange is a good place to start, then maybe see what your local butcher would give you - pig's ears? You can usually get those for dogs, pig flesh of course being very similar to human.

reply to post by Now_Then


Oranges are used by acupunture people to practice needle depth as the flesh, apparently has a similar resistance. However pig ears are a great idea as it's the closest thing t human flesh you will find, that is why it is used in so many experiments.

Star for you

We practiced IM/SC injections on oranges.

And corpses for sutures, but pigs ears sound like a very good replacement

I have found another product that will stop bleeding and is simple to use:

Ferric powder sold as "Quick Relief Stop Bleeding Powder". There is a video there to show how it is used.

They also sell the antiseptic wound wipes (very necessary, I think).

www.firstaidsuppliesonline.com...

[edit on 29-10-2009 by Siren]

I had occasion to take a class on emergency suturing and first aid many years ago. A few years after that, I was canoeing near the Great Slave Lake and fell, cut open a nasty gash on my calf, and had to sew it closed. It was ugly work, and difficult to reach, but effective.

During the class, we practiced with very thin leather. It wasn't a true substitute for skin, as skin is elastic, and part of the skill of suturing is to be able to trim ragged skin, and butt the tear tightly, but not so snug that the sutures tear or wrinkle the skin.

You might want to acquire a few 3M skin staple kits. These are particularly good for scalp lacerations, and fairly easy to use. I wasted two of the kits just getting the hang of them (practicing on very thick plastic sheeting).

I also have a couple of these Suture and surgical kits. Good quality. Sutures, even those in foil packs, will "go bad" after a few years -- they get dried and brittle and decompose. Sterile, and I mean REALLY sterile thread can be used in a pinch.

You might also want to get extra sutures, a good set of medical shears, curved irrigation syringe, and some betadine.

I have used iodine to clean wounds, but remember that tincture of iodine is somewhat poisonous, and many people react to it. Betadine -- providone iodine -- is a much safer microbicide.

I'm not a doctor, just a mook with a tad of training that wants to be prepared. Hope this is helpful.

reply to post by argentus

You might want to acquire a few 3M skin staple kits. These are particularly good for scalp lacerations, and fairly easy to use. I wasted two of the kits just getting the hang of them (practicing on very thick plastic sheeting).

I just looked at this. Great!!! How did you use it (did you just pinch the area and staple)? Also, is it easy or difficult to do?

Thanks!

reply to post by Siren


The most difficult part of using these skin staplers -- at least for me -- is maintaining sterility. Yes, you basically hold the cleaned (trimmed, if necessary) wound closed -- butted, not overlapped -- and press down to deploy the staple. 3M also makes a medical staple remover, as well as adhersive skin closures..

Some of the skin stapers kits are disposable and you can even get a handle that is supposed to make them easier to use, and then the kit becomes a cartridge for the handle. I have no experience with the handles, so can't advise about them.

I should clarify about sometihng -- I said that the skin staplers are particularly good for scalp lacerations. This is JUST MY OPINION; I said this because of the vast amount of blood that issues from scalp wounds (making it difficult to suture) and also wounds without much flesh beneath them are more difficult (for me and my elementary skills) to suture.

This stuff falls under the heading of "stuff I hope I never need, but want to have it if I do."

cheers!

I agree a sterile environment is a plus but this you can do if need be pretty well yourself. I have hospital grade disinfection products. inside a canvas tent or enclosed area would be best. I have purchased gloves and surgery sheets for around the wounded area. I have antibiotics and a surgery kit that is stainless steel. I have read up on sterilization by a pressure cooker, this can be heated by wood. The one issue is your patient, how do you make then feel no pain. Lidocain may help. I am looking into other pain relieving products. Topicals for skin wounds are easy to purchase but I think that in that case a butterfly stitch may work best.
You really have to know what you are doing to put anyone out, unless they are already out.
You know I just thought of something. I know someone who repairs anisticia machines. I will be calling them!

[edit on 29-10-2009 by saralee]

You folks may laugh, but in combat we quickly learned that the Army "90mph" tape, or reinforced duct tape will handle a number of wounds that would normally require lots of stitches.

In our work with blade knives, we frequently enough (yeah, we're slow learners) will lay our hand or fingers open.

My guys saw me grab the duct tape, push the parted tissue together, and then carefully tape it. They said that wouldn't work, that it would re-open the wound when I removed it, on and on.

They assumed I would be removing it within the next few days - which I wasn't.

It binds the tissue almost as well as the finest of stiching jobs, it protects the wound area, it's relatively waterproof, it definitely stops the flow of blood, and you can get right back to work.

Now, they all have imitated my actions, and get a kick out of how well it works.

Stitches are a pain to perform, painful to pull, they create more sensitive tension points, and they're a pain to remove.

Just a thought for those interested.

Oh. That super glue? Works better if you also have some butterflys to hole the shallow wound together.

Or, one piece of duct tape.

reply to post by saralee


Not feeling the pain is a plus, but, depending upon the circumstances, it is bearable. When I was about 12 I had about twenty sutures to my head (internal/external) done in a doctors office and he did not give me anything to dull the pain. I felt every stitch.

For me, I will collect all the methods and stock at least two. As of now, it will most likely be the butterfly closures and the QR powder. Triple antibiotic oinment has some pain relieving properties, but, I don't know if this can be used in conjuction with the methods stated. In the case of the butterfly closures, perhaps, if carefully applied on the wound itself and the outer area rubbed with alcohol to remove the oil the butterfly closure will hold. Both of these methods appear to be the least painful and simple option.

I will still explore options available.

I will use the duct tape as a backup (who would have thought - great).

FYI... Further reading has indicated that permission from the injured person is needed to administer first aid.

First Aid/Consent

First aiders should always err towards treating a victim. Your actions may be covered by a Good Samaritan Law, and where this does not apply, most countries give much leeway to those acting in good faith.

en.wikibooks.org...

[edit on 30-10-2009 by Siren]

[edit on 30-10-2009 by Siren]

Originally posted by dooper
Or, one piece of duct tape.

So many uses!

In my heart of hearts I really hope there is just one old guy somewhere who owns the duct tape patent, he would of woken up one morning, said a ha! today I shall give the world duct tape... And well that's it, he retired at 30 lives in a modest house and blew the rest on women and gambling

Ha, duck tape thats to funny. I have plenty of that! Good idea. I bought the skin staples from www.valleyvet.com... along with any lidocaine based sprays or gels they also have gauze ,flex rolls, triple antibiotic ointments , sutures, wound dust, needles ect.
Great posts and links, I will try the pig ears this is a good idea. Did you know that many swine meds can be used on humans at a human weight dose? So I dont know why I did not think of that myself.
Thanks all of you.

P.S Where is everyone getting antibiotics?

[edit on 1-11-2009 by saralee]

reply to post by saralee

If I can make a suggestion. Antibiotics are good if you can get them, but you'll need some other options if you can't.

For field use, to treat wounds, cuts, deep abrasions, slashes, punctures, and so on - there are a couple of options.

If you can afford it, purchase a few .999 silver coins or 1 oz. .999 bars. Silver is one of the most powerful antiseptic/antimicrobials that exists. Just file a few grains off and place them directly on the wound. NOTHING will get infected.

Even fine silver wire can be used to address deep punctures to keep them from getting infected.

One other thing that you may want to stock up on is Thyme. Thyme is a strong antimicrobial as well, and Thyme oil is super powerful. Make a strong tea, apply to bandages, and then fasten with - what else - duct tape!

Not only is Thyme an herb that can and is used in cooking, a strong Thyme tea is most beneficial in treating sore throats, controlling coughs, and treating bronchitis.

It's also a strong anti-fungal treatment.

And then there's bread. If you have nothing else to treat a wound, moldy bread, with the mold pressed to the wound will control the infection.

I used to be in Special Forces, and since we were to be in the field for extended periods of time without any support and were required to make do with whatever became available, we did just that.

A tidbit here, a tidbit there, and after a while, you realize that some things have so many uses beyond what is apparent.

One other thing. There is little that heat and salt can't handle. From an upper respiratory infection to boils. Heat. Salt.

Originally posted by Siren
I have found another product that will stop bleeding and is simple to use:

Ferric powder sold as "Quick Relief Stop Bleeding Powder". There is a video there to show how it is used.

They also sell the antiseptic wound wipes (very necessary, I think).

www.firstaidsuppliesonline.com...

[edit on 29-10-2009 by Siren]

This is the best link for medical supplies its easy to order and understand.
Thanks

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by saralee

 

If I can make a suggestion. Antibiotics are good if you can get them, but you'll need some other options if you can't.

For field use, to treat wounds, cuts, deep abrasions, slashes, punctures, and so on - there are a couple of options.

If you can afford it, purchase a few .999 silver coins or 1 oz. .999 bars. Silver is one of the most powerful antiseptic/antimicrobials that exists. Just file a few grains off and place them directly on the wound. NOTHING will get infected.

Even fine silver wire can be used to address deep punctures to keep them from getting infected.

One other thing that you may want to stock up on is Thyme. Thyme is a strong antimicrobial as well, and Thyme oil is super powerful. Make a strong tea, apply to bandages, and then fasten with - what else - duct tape!

Not only is Thyme an herb that can and is used in cooking, a strong Thyme tea is most beneficial in treating sore throats, controlling coughs, and treating bronchitis.

It's also a strong anti-fungal treatment.

And then there's bread. If you have nothing else to treat a wound, moldy bread, with the mold pressed to the wound will control the infection.

I used to be in Special Forces, and since we were to be in the field for extended periods of time without any support and were required to make do with whatever became available, we did just that.

A tidbit here, a tidbit there, and after a while, you realize that some things have so many uses beyond what is apparent.

One other thing. There is little that heat and salt can't handle. From an upper respiratory infection to boils. Heat. Salt.

Great suggestions and info. 1 question will dried thyme and fresh both work. Where did you guys get silver at that time? Was it supplied? Just curious.Thanks


[edit on 1-11-2009 by saralee]

dissolving sutures are the ones to have.
the non dissolving type are to sew up the skin and that can be replaced by Steri-Strips.
www.steristrips.com...

i had 5 way bypass surgery done in 2006 and this was what they closed the skin on my chest and leg where they got the grafts.

I did not have to have any stitches removed.

I have stitched up a few dogs and horses over the years and the hard part is the knots.
uncooked chicken is a good place to start for practice.
The one thing you really need to practice is suturing blood vessels.
plus know what vessels need to be reconnected and what can be tied off.

Also you need wound drainage material in some cases for deep wounds.
a trapped abscess can kill faster then letting a wound drain in many cases even with antibiotics.
en.wikipedia.org...(surgery)
In the field something like a Bard Penrose Drain will work in many cases

And in field conditions finding IV antibiotics will be next to impossible.
You will have to do your best with oral antibiotics if you are lucky.

I have a few herbals on hand one of which is Collodial Silver 30 ppm, which is an antibiotic. Another good one is Aerobic Oxygen, I got it to purify water and found it has many uses. The herbals are good for about 3 years (label). Some say longer, depending upon what it is. Collodial Silver and Aerobic Oxygen have no expiration date that I know of. Aerobic Oxygen must be diluted to use on the skin.

Recently, I discovered Yarrow. In addition, to stopping bleeding it is an antibiotic as well. Just ordered this in capsule form.

More on Yarrow:

Yarrow was commonly used by Native American tribes for bleeding, wounds, and infections. It is used in Ayurvedic traditions, and traditional Chinese medicine credits yarrow with the ability to affect the spleen, liver, kidney, and bladder meridians, or energy channels, in the body.

health.howstuffworks.com...

Also found this, but, I can't remember where:

Herbal Compress to Stop Bleeding
1 teaspoon tincture of yarrow (or other suitable herb)
½ cup water
Soft cloth
Combine ingredients. Soak the cloth in the liquid, wring it out and apply it

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Siren

I do have Thyme essential oil also (forgot to mention). Want to add that I have used dried herbals and spices longer than 3 years and they were okay, but, it is the herbal caplets that have an expiration date. Just wanted to clarify.

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Siren]

reply to post by saralee


Thyme either fresh or dried will work. The bulk of the antiseptic as I understand it is in the oil. Thymol.

We always had a Christian or Buddist with a bit of silver around their neck. The older silver coins were 90% silver, and worked well enough.

I'm just saying that .999 silver coins or one ounce ingots is easily enough found, especially in pawn shops.

And you know you have pure stuff.

reply to post by calstorm


My husband used it on our dog who had a cut down to the bone (on her shoulder). He was a medic in the army, and swears by it. The wound healed nicely and did not get infected.

I considered the same in my SHTF preparations but decided without proper training on how to suture wounds I would probably end up doing more harm than good. Plus they're painful as hell to put in without antiseptic.

My advice would be a good supply of butterfly bandages or steri-strips, liquid bandage (basically super glue, except medical grade) and Quik-Clot.