New FDR Decode

Originally posted by TiffanyInLA


Do you know what a "pig" is weedwhacker?

Oh.. I do I do!!

It's when a guy is banned from ATS.. and comes back with a girl sock puppet!

Rob Balsamo will know!!

reply to post by TiffanyInLA


I believe you may be out of your depth. However, I will try to politely explain.

Are you saying control surface deflection, TAT, weight, speed, static pressure, dynamic pressure, density, fuel load, oil temp, oil press, N1, N2, N3, and all the other parameters/data are not considered and calcualted in a Level D sim?

Have much experience flying simulators? I have, many years' worth.

No...I have never been checked out to operate the Instructor's position. BUT, I do have eyes, and ears...and can SEE what they're doing, how they set up parameters, etc. Not all our sim sessions are spent up front, ya know!

I wish I had $5 for every time we've been "re-positioned"...know how that owrks? There are different terms...I've heard "fast slew", or just plain old 're-position'...sometimes prefaced by "You guys may want to close your eyes, it disorients some people..." (or words to that effect...this, when the visuals are on, of course).

It's never bothered me, though. Or, I busy myself getting out approach plates, or setting up, whatever...the re-positioning happens VERY fast...of course, this will depend a lot on the manufacturer, and technology of different machines.

But, point is....the SIM is a COMPUTER...and all those parameters are selected BY the instructor, per the syllabus. DIFFERENT from real world, with ACTUAL instruments that measure them, fuel quantity, engine parameters....they are SIMULATED!

Are you saying these parameters cannot be recorded to a flash device similar to an FDR?

You really think a flash drive, and an SSFDR are that similar???

In a "real-time" sort of data acquision manner??? Wow!

Are you forgetting about the MECHANICAL components on a real airplane, that have position sensors, and are recorded REAL TIME as well...that do NOT exist on a SIM?

Puzzled by this misconception that persists....

Oh, wait...maybe THIS expalins it...

You can even produce a .fdr file and a .udp file with Xplane and Microsoft Flight Simulator for less than 50 bucks, save it to a flash memory, and plant it in a "pig".

Oh...(chin in hand....) Do tell!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
But, point is....the SIM is a COMPUTER...

And the data saved by a FDR on a real world aircaft is read by what?

That's right weedwhacker, a computer.

Again weedwhacker, a .fdr file and .udp file, the same files produced by a real world aircraft, can be produced by 50 dollar software you can buy in Walmart, saved to flash memory, and planted in a "pig".

A "pig" is a CSMU.

Do you know what CSMU means?

Originally posted by weedwhacker


Therefore, and ergo, my point being: The "flying" profile that is "flown" in a SIM cannot be directly and completely downloaded into a real SSFDR, and then subsequently installed into a real airframe, with the intent to "fool" investigators into thinking that THAT unit (SSFDR) was 'recording' before being "staged" at the crash scene....which seems to be a continuing assertion by some in the so-called "truth movement" camp.

See why, yet? I'll help: BECAUSE of the hundreds and hundreds of components and their separate readings and functions that are monitored and recorded in the REAL airplane...these items do not exist in the SIM, and so, they would have NO INPUT into this alleged "faked" data set.

Weed, you are clearly out of your league here.

You fail to answer my simple questions.

#1. WHen you are sitting in the Level D flight SIm and looking at your
Primary flight display, does the altitude, speed, altimeter setting, etc.
all show up and appear to function like a real aircraft?

#2. Tell me the object (piece of avionics circuitry) that is installed and
connected PRIOR to the SSFDR

Here's a clue:
www.ntsb.gov...

You seem to imply that sensors are connected directly to the data recorder
portion of the system which is TOTALLY FALSE.

Answer the question, and then I will prove in several ways how these
sensors (which are NOT installed on a sim) are emulated to function
just like a real aircraft in flight.

Here's a tip: The SSFDR is just one part of the IDARS which is the part
that RECORDS data. In some aircraft the SSFDR stands alone; in others
it's integrated within the IDARS.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by turbofan]

reply to post by TiffanyInLA


I wouldn't go that far. Even though you're on my side of the debate,
it should be pointed out that the file structure output from a PC game
is not the same as used by a proprietary airline.

The file could be fabricated by a level D flight simulator which uses the
same avioncs, Flight management computer and data structure as the
real world counterpart.

Furthermore, to enable the upload of the sim file, you would need a proprietary
hardware and firmware system that can interface with the Flight Data Recorder
to enable uploading and downloading from the memory module.

Level D Airline simulator with the same electronics - yes.

A video game - not the same data structure, word format, etc. When
compared to a data frame layout for a specific aircraft type and MFG,
the PC game file would not match at all.

I hope this helps, let me know if you need more of an explanation.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by turbofan]

Originally posted by turbofan


I wouldn't go that far.

Click

Second line.

reply to post by TiffanyInLA


Sorry, all I get is a Google home page?

reply to post by turbofan

#2. Tell me the object (piece of avionics circuitry) that is installed and connected PRIOR to the SSFDR

I don't even have to go look that up. Th FDAU.

IT receives the data from the hundreds of disparate inputs.

Maybe I'm still zeroing in on your (and "Tiffany's") confusion...by mentioning MS Flight Simulator, or any OTHER home-based hobbyists' SIM program...

Both of you are focusing ONLY on the specifics of instrumentation displays, and how that data is recorded.

That is, the aspects that pertain ONLY to the actual flying maneuvers, performance ...airspeeds, pitch/roll/yaw, etc, etc.

I will TRY one more time...here's one example: In a REAL airplane the ACTUAL outside temp (either OAT/SAT, and/or TAT, as appropriate, for whichever function) is directly measured/calculated ("calculated' in the instance of 'SAT' --- Static Air Temp. In flight, in a REAL airplane, the Rosemount probes measure TAT....and that is an elevated temp, due to speeds and airflow compressiblity and friction conditions).

The SAT has to be computed, which is one function of the ADC. BUT, it takes an ACTUAL reaading, from an ACTUAL device measuring the overall temp, and THEN it looks at ACTUAL airspeed readings, and then COMPUTES the SAT, based onmathematical formula programmed in.

A SIM has to use the parameters determined FROM actual flight testing information, in order to modify the SIM's performance to closely match what the RAEL airplane doesk, in REAL world, due to changes in temperature. It is an ESTIMATE,, based solely on manthematics.

REAL world is close...but there are so many variables in REAL life, not all things can be completely, exactly simulated. BUT, it is close enough to be a fabulous training apparatus.


I see you still avoid the uncomfortable facts about the hundreds of other many, many inputs that are ALSO recorded...here's just one example of that, for you:

In the SIM, you selct "Flaps 5". The SIM computer looks at the hydraulic system 'status", determines it's normal, looks at the "airspeed", determines it's within limits, etc...and then moves the needles on the panel, for the Flaps/Slats iposition indicators at the speeds that have been seen to occur IN REAL LIFE, on the real ariplanes, in the same conditions.

The SIM has no actuators for the flaps/slats...no valves move, no actual hydraulic pressure fluctuations occur....but on the real irplane,the SSFDR records these things directly, in addtion to recording actual flap/slat postionin info, from sensors on those devices.

This does NOT exist in the SIM!!! An "FDR file" (from a SIM) would NOT have this info...and if it were missing from an SSFDR recovered at the Pentagon, and presented to the investigators, they would HAVE NOTICED!!!!

There are hundreds of more examples.....

Originally posted by weedwhacker

IT receives the data from the hundreds of disparate inputs.

That would be 'discrete' but I'll let that slide since you're not a technical
person.

I will TRY one more time...here's one example: In a REAL airplane the ACTUAL outside temp In the SIM,

This is easily computer geneterated or fed into the SIM using a weather
station real time weather stats.

The SIM has no actuators for the flaps/slats...no valves move, no actual hydraulic pressure fluctuations occur....but on the real irplane,the SSFDR records these things directly, in addtion to recording actual flap/slat postionin info, from sensors on those devices.

NO IT DOES NOT! THe SSFDR does NOT directly record these inputs!

You just contradicted your response in the previous paragraph. The DFAU
receives the inputs. The displays in the cockpit receive the data in real time.
The FDAU sends words of info to the flight data recorder as updates (polled information) depending on the word status and polling frequency.

Therefore, that SAME info you get for flap position on the EICAS in the SIM
is the SAME information sent to the SSFDR for recording.

If it shows up in the SIM cockpit displays, it's also sent to the SSFDR
digitally!

Everything and anything that is controlled by the FMC is also sent to the
SSFDR.

Hang on, I'm recording and calling a few flight sim companies to settle this
once and for all.

reply to post by turbofan


????

Originally posted by turbofan

Originally posted by weedwhacker

IT receives the data from the hundreds of disparate inputs.

That would be 'discrete' but I'll let that slide since you're not a technical
person.

The meaning:
~~~~~
World English Dictionary

— adj
1. utterly different or distinct in kind

— n
2. ( plural ) unlike things or people

[C16: from Latin disparāre to divide, from dis- 1 + parāre to prepare; also influenced by Latin dispar unequal]
~~~~~

Originally posted by TiffanyInLA

Originally posted by turbofan


I wouldn't go that far.

Click

Second line.

Lovin' it....the old roommates, at it again! Turn it up!

reply to post by turbofan


Nope! Where did you get THIS notion about temperatures, in the SIM???

(The underlined bits):

This is easily computer geneterated or fed into the SIM using a weather station real time weather stats.

I wrote, I write, I explain....and some people don't seem to actually read my work! Cough, cough.

It doesn't matter; techs don't speak like that. The correct word to use is
discrete.

I have a 20 minute phone call to upload and I'm sorry to say you're not
going to be happy.

I'll link you once it's finished processing. I learned a GREAT deal of things
too; I almost feel sorry for wasting the guy's time...he was exceptional and
very open with me.

reply to post by turbofan


You're right....but, whilst typing, keeping it "simple", and considering the FDAU/SSFDR as a single unit, for ease of thought?? Apparently, you have issues with that, and want to nitpick.

SO, shoot me for NOT being 100% picky, picky technical at EVERY moment!!

NO IT DOES NOT! THe SSFDR does NOT directly record these inputs!

You just contradicted your response in the previous paragraph. The FDAU
receives the inputs. The displays in the cockpit receive the data in real time.
The FDAU sends words of info to the flight data recorder as updates (polled information) depending on the word status and polling frequency.

See? You said yourself, I am aware of the FDAU's role...if I omit it, it is not intended as decpetion...just convenience, maybe lazy writing....

Thing is....it is I with the actual, real-world experience IN A SIM...the real SIMs. Over two decades' worth of experience, in many different machines, from many different manufacturers, representing differing levels of advancement in design, depending on YEAR of manufacture, and airplane that it represents.

Compared to an "armchair googler" who is trying to equate what he reads online, with his knowledge of UNRELATED computer technology, and systems. Someone could stand to do more actual research:

Therefore, that SAME info you get for flap position on the EICAS in the SIM
is the SAME information sent to the SSFDR for recording.

ONLY, in your example above, IF you are talking about the hard insturments, and their position information...the ones mounted in the inustrument panel.

AS I SAID (if only people would thoroughly read my words) in the cited example: On the actual airplane, there are sensors, many of them, that directly report to the FDAU the positional information of the ACTUAL flap/slat segments. THOSE sensors, and their readings, ARE what control the Flap/Slat Position indicators (and the associated green/amber lights, and the EICAS messages, in the case of B-757/767, and others).

IN THE SIM? The sensors are in the Flap Handle postion information...its movement and postion send signals to the computer, which in turn send the appropriate and expected SIMULATED readings on the instrrments and lights and EICAS in the SIM's cockpit. There are NO SIGNALS to report the physical movement of the control surfaces, nor the hydraulic vlaves that have been actuated, nor the various microswitches that record their proper postioning and trigger the lights, in proper sequence, etc, etc.

It is VERY complex...it is designed INTO the real airplane. Again, it is a SIMULATION for the benefit of the pilots in the SIM, to recreate the same sorts of visual indications they'd expect to see once they get into the real airplane!!!

Hang on....I found a schematic for a B-737 pneumatic system...let me put it into My Pictures, and post it....(as an example...hard to find everything we're talking about, online at short notice)...

....Ah, (bad word!). The one I found is a .bmp/.gif, and ATS Media doesn't like it. Here is the link:

www.b737.org.uk...

See that? Just ONE system (although few systems are completely independent, as many interact with each other). There are a plethora of "discrete" readings and data that are recorded, from all around that system, to the SSFDR (through the FDAU! of course...).

In a Boeing 737 SIM, there is NO actual...oh, Duct Temp sensor....there is a program that sends a signal to a gauge, but the derivation of that signal is DIFFERENT, as it's computer-generated, than is the actual signal from an actual Temp sensor....

If it shows up in the SIM cockpit displays, it's also sent to the SSFDR digitally!

No, SIMs don't have an SSFDR.




[edit on 24 August 2010 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


For those who may be interested....I found a few example videos of actual REAL airplanes, and training flights. Just for fun, and so people who have never flown can see from a pilot's perspective, even if the video techniques are a bit dodgy at times.

In this selection, don't know the airline...but it's a B-757 and they're in England. Guess their SIM isn't that advanced, or else Great Britain requires the actual landings...they call them "Base Training", apparently.

This is what we used to call "Pilot Trainer" flights...in the days before the FFS Level D technology, at least THREE landings in the real airplane were required. Your better SIMs (the "Level D" types) are now "landing certified" (at least in USA, by FAA) so first time a new pilot, just trained on the equipment, actually flies the thing is on a live revenue flight.

As you will see, they're doing "Touch and Goes"...something we have stopped, since oh...the early 1990s, at least at MY company. We just don't need to do the Pilot Trainers anymore, except for some management types, the Check Airmen, when new equipment is introduced, or when they initially check out into that capacity.

(When we got the B-767-400s, for example....the Check Airmen had to go do their landings, get all signed off. THEN we line pilots --- just the Captains --- had to go on a revenue trip, with the check pilot, to get ONE landing each, to get qualified. This completed our so-called "differences" training).



Pay attention to the control wheel movement...seems exagerrated, but it's common to see that, even though the airplane doesn't immediately react...
Mentioning it, because you can compare to the AAL 77 NTSB video and see the control wheel's recorded movements...and in every other NTSB re-enactment done for other airplane accidents/crashes.





[edit on 24 August 2010 by weedwhacker]

Sorry to burst your bubble; I have a phone call recorded which says
you're wrong!

All that experience behind the yoke wont give you the technical knowledge
Weed...

The video is rendering, it will be completed this afternoon. I'll upload
to YouTube and link everyone.

So, start making up your excuses to tell me why this SIM instructor and
company owner is wrong about the flight data coming out of the level D sim!

WHile you're out looking for YoTube Vids, look up Computer emulation
and technology.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by turbofan]

reply to post by turbofan


Oh, am quivering with anticipation!!

Here, Tino, what can you make out of this? [***]

www.linuxjournal.com...

Have you ever wondered how full-flight simulators and CATS (computer-aided training systems, Figure 1) are made? The answer, as one might expect, is that they are made with a lot of high-tech hardware and a million lines of code.

~~~~~~
[***] "Johnny, what can you make outta this?"....








[edit on 24 August 2010 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by turbofan
reply to post by TiffanyInLA

 

Sorry, all I get is a Google home page?

It was a link to google with "udp fdr xplane" in the search window.

The udp file is the one produced by the alleged UA93 FDR.

The .fdr file is the file produced by the alleged AA77.

Xplane can produce them both with a little tweaking for the data frames. I know MSFS also has the same ability to output FDR Files, not sure if it as open source though to tweak the data frame layout codes.

Originally posted by turbofan

I will TRY one more time...here's one example: In a REAL airplane the ACTUAL outside temp In the SIM,

This is easily computer geneterated or fed into the SIM using a weather
station real time weather stats.

Correct.

And with the advent of the internet, you can actually have a live feed of real world weather data streaming into the sim as you fly. Doesn't even have to be input by a human.

For example, The physical simulator is located in Dallas, but you are shooting approaches at KBOS (Boston). KBOS real world weather can be fed into the sim.

Cloud formations can even be depicted based on Sat imagery in real time.

This can all also be done in Xplane and MSFS.

reply to post by TiffanyInLA


This is hilarious!!!

You guys are STILL talking about hobbyists' home flight sims, aren't you?

There IS a large sub-culture out there, it seems....I've seen some of these dudes ('dudettes?) post their efforts on YouTube.

I've seen a website/blog sort of thing, where a guy is BUILDING an entire Boeing cockpit replica, to integrate with his HOME computer programs.

These things are, of course, going to mimic the "real" thing....but, so what??

I'm not a computer programmer, but can't just about ANY computer language be used, by a professional programmer, to accomplish the same "simulation"??

IOW...you can run Windows software on a Mac, right?

Is there a computer techhie out in the world who would NOT notice the difference, between teh two softwares???