The Atheist agenda?

reply to post by whateverponcho


interesting concept. Thanks for posting it. So you actually fell compelled to change or remove religion to make people more aware of this life. That is a noble cause. I realize that might sound patronizing, but it is exactly what I was looking for. Honest answer. I may not agree, but then again I may not be right.

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Originally posted by network dude My intent is to understand why atheists think the way they do.

Because in my eyes all religions aren't real, they are man made, and i can't understand personally how some very smart people believe in some of the things they do.

Their personal choice, but still!

Its similar to how when you feel really bad and down, you feel better if someone else you know has a really hard time as well. "At least I'm not the only one" type of thing.

Atheists should be out there attempting to spread the word. I myself am "amost atheist" - I retain a lot of cultural aspects of religion, but I realize such beliefs have no material or rational basis.

So.. .Why should htey attempt to spread it? Because every human being on the face of the earth has the right - I would almost say the duty - to be a free-thinking individual.

How many of you have known children who live in fear of not being good enough for their parents? Middle-child syndrome, perhaps? Whether it's due to parental overexpectations or neglect or just the child being paranoid or having low self-esteem, these poor kids are miserable, because they think that the one force of love they feel in the world... May actually not love them back. It's a living hell.

That's religion. every religion on earth focuses on whether or not you are "good enough" for the being or beings that supposedly created you. Whether you are an advocate of a jewish sky-god, or you pray at a shrine to your ancestors, or whatever, your goal is the same - to prove yourself worthy to a caste of entities who, deep in your heart, you know you will never truly gain the acceptance of.

Billions and billions of people, throughout history, have tortured their psyches and even their bodies over this, over not being "good enough" for their gods. This week, children were tortured in Nigeria for not being "good enough" for god - they were called witches. In Arizona, new-agers packed themselves into a sweat lodge until three died from the exertion and fasting. All around hte world, Catholics and Protestants pray themselves hoarse in the very real hope that their god will not throw them into an eternal torment. In India, castes are stratified by religion, with one caste at the bottom just as fervently believing they deserve to be at the bottom, as the caste on top believes it deserves that place. Scattered around the middle east, Jihadi muslims kill and get killed because they believe that will guarantee their place in heaven.

All this, because these people have convinced themselves that god might not love them, because they feel they are not "good enough".

Atheism is freedom from that. It is a liberation, where a human can look in the mirror and see, not a ragged lump of sinful flesh, destined for eternal torment after their death, but a man named Frank who has a wonderful family, who could spend a little more time perfecting his bass playing, who enjoys the hell out of BLT sandwiches and does not need his parent's approval to be a worthy human being. A person can see themselves not as their husband's pet, a baby-maker destined to pain because of her greatest-grandmothers' choice of cuisine, blamed and barred from holy life... But instead as Amira, mother of two, daughter of two, who has the knowledge and power to tell her overbearing husband to # off and walk out of the abusive relationship, rather than submitting because the Koran demands it.

Atheism isn't so much the abandonment of god as it is the realization of humanity.

We all have the right to believe in what we want. Im an Atheist (strangely that to sounds like a religion which isnt of course) But I believe in science.
I dont recall any atheist pushing its believes on someone that is Christian or Muslim or any other religion. From my experience its the other way around.

On trainstations, on the streets to the front of my door I get people that want to promote their Christian (its only Christians that come to me) religion onto me. Understandeble, cause the churches are getting more and more empty so they have to promote it to make it more attractive again for people to come back. But its not going to work on me.

Originally posted by network dude
What I don't understand is the motive for an atheist to try to convert people to their way of thinking. What is to be gained by this? By all means they have just as much right to do this as someone would to ring your doorbell and attempt to tell you all about God. But what will they gain other than a little company? I would appreciate any and all responses. I am not trying to convert any atheists, or condemn any Christians, just trying to understand this.

While I don't do this (I really don't care what you do or think as long as you leave me alone) I think my fellow atheists do this because a lot of us view the religious the same way you would a bipolar person in the middle of a manic episode. You talk to the person and try to get them to see that something is not real despite their absolute certainty that it is, or the way you would talk to a kid and convince him that Santa Clause is in fact a lie. Those might sound like arrogant and condescending examples, but if you really think about it, is it really that different?

As far as an "atheist agenda" I don't believe that at all, atheists are NOT an organized group. The only thing we share in common is that we do not believe in any god or gods.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Get over yourselves.

I'm an atheist and not once have i ever tried to convert people into my way of thinking.

The day you have atheists in white shirts knocking on your door is the day you can claim an agenda.

If you believe in God - fine. If you don't - fine!

heh, you just said it better than I could. I tend to drag everything out into a long post and I don't think anyone reads it.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Raverous]

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Get over yourselves.

I'm an atheist and not once have i ever tried to convert people into my way of thinking.

The day you have atheists in white shirts knocking on your door is the day you can claim an agenda.

If you believe in God - fine. If you don't - fine!

Yeah really, I mean are'nt there like 14 atheists worldwide lol. On a more serious note, I have a close friend who is pretty much an atheist, bright, bright individual. He admitted to me straight up, that he is not ready to understand the word of God. That he has built an enormous structure of thought over the years, and he simply does not want to start over now. I have a great deal of respect for him, and I can fully understand his viewpoint.

If a person wants to talk about God, only then will I share my opinion of such matters. I don't ask why don't you believe, or say you are going to hell if you don't see as I do. Truly the person who says such things about hell will experience it firsthand. There are few that are truly righteous, and most likey are not affiliated with organized religion to begin with. And, certainly have no right to determine who and who does'nt go to hell.

Wow...

To me, the only thing more reprehensible than an intolerant religious zealot, is a self-righteous Atheist know-it-all who assumes everyone that believes in some sort of "higher power" is a delusional dolt!

Some of the replies in this thread from those who do not believe in any form of a higher power, are simply rude and uncalled for. The original poster was simply trying to gain an understanding of something which he/she knew little about, and yet instead they receive quite a few snide and snarky remarks.

In all fairness, a few of the Atheists that posted were quite helpful in sharing their own opinions on the subject in a very informational manner, and I learned a few things from their insights. However, on the other end of the spectrum there are a few arrogant, rude individuals who act worse than the very people they claim to rebel against!

If I may offer a little of my own experience and opinion, I would like to caution those who believe that everyone who claims to have a personal experience or relationship with a higher power is either lying or crazy. Just because someone may have an experience that you have not, that doesn't mean it isn't so! I speak from first hand knowledge in this respect, and I am so secure in my own spirituality that I feel the word "belief" no longer applies.

However, this doesn't mean that I expect everyone else to feel the same way about the subject as I do, rather I think everyone would be well served to keep an open mind about subjects of this nature. I would never force my own spirituality on anyone else, and I believe that anyone who attempts to do so only does a disservice to whatever it is they practice. We should all be tolerant of one another no matter what our personal opinions, experiences, or beliefs may be.

reply to post by bigdaddy7ftr


I've had personal encounters with what I can only describe as "supernatural" - I simply fail to see any reason why such encounters should inspire me to worship these chance happenings, much less build an entire philosophy around them.

I don't think people with "personal encounters" are crazy or liars. I just think that their worshipfulness is misguided

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by bigdaddy7ftr

 

I've had personal encounters with what I can only describe as "supernatural" - I simply fail to see any reason why such encounters should inspire me to worship these chance happenings, much less build an entire philosophy around them.

I don't think people with "personal encounters" are crazy or liars. I just think that their worshipfulness is misguided

With all due respect for your own personal opinion, this is basically what I was getting at. I think it's fine that you choose to believe whatever you do about your own supernatural experiences. However, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge whether someone else's beliefs are "misguided"?

I'm absolutely sincere when I say that I don't mean to say this in an antagonistic way, but simply as a question.

We all have our own reasons for believing, or not believing, whatever it is we choose. I have no authority to say that you, or anyone else, is wrong in your own experience and assumptions, because they belong exclusively to you.

Why is it that some people feel as if they can correctly interpret the beliefs of others, when they have not experienced the same phenomena, or lack there of, as those people?

To put it simply blind faith in religion leads to ignorance and atheism leads to arrogance.

Originally posted by bigdaddy7ftr
With all due respect for your own personal opinion, this is basically what I was getting at. I think it's fine that you choose to believe whatever you do about your own supernatural experiences. However, who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to judge whether someone else's beliefs are "misguided"?

I'm absolutely sincere when I say that I don't mean to say this in an antagonistic way, but simply as a question.

Let's take for a moment, and say that the gods, spirits, angels, whatever your experience was with actually exist - I'm not certain they do, and lean towards saying they don't. But let's say they do.

What entitles them to your worship, your reverence, your servitude? What makese these entities, experiences, and encounters any more deserving of your faith than a respected political leader or a skilled athlete, someone tangible all the time to you, and to others? Why is worship of the material "crazy" while worship of the immaterial supposed to be respectable?

And what of those people who never once have this sort of experience themselves, and instead give this kind of faith to entities supposedly encountered by others, sometimes yesterday, sometimes three thousand years ago?

Thus why I call worshipers misguided. It's not meant as an insult. If you choose to worship, that's your business. But that doesn't make what you're worshiping worthy of it.

We all have our own reasons for believing, or not believing, whatever it is we choose. I have no authority to say that you, or anyone else, is wrong in your own experience and assumptions, because they belong exclusively to you.

Why is it that some people feel as if they can correctly interpret the beliefs of others, when they have not experienced the same phenomena, or lack there of, as those people?

However you do have the authority as a (supposedly) rational being to point out if my conclusion is flawed.

If I told you my dog is telepathically telling me to kill and eat people... well, you can't really say he is or isn't, as you aren't experiencing what I am, right? However, you can tell me that there's no real reason I should do what my homicidal telepathic dog is telling me to do. it's just a dog - a really weird one, if my experiences are correct, but still, just a dog.

More importantly why do people from any Belief system try to convert others to their way of life?

It does not really matter which groups is doing it, they all do it. So each is a bad as the rest, if we are going to perceive such action on one side as bad.

Why not let people have their stuff and you go about your life shining in your own way. There is no reason for you to save anyone except yourself if you have the Belief. Those who do not hold to the Beliefs don't care for it.

"Each of us shines in a different way, but this does not make anyone less than another."

reply to post by Tayesin


Actually it's pretty much just christianity / Islam, and those religions strongly influenced by them. The majority of world religions are very reluctant to let in outsiders. You can't really convert to Hinduism or most branches of Judaism without doing some heavy lifting - you can say "I'm a Hindu" or "I'm a Jew" if you like, but it "doesn't count" with other Hindus or Jews. Just ask Madonna.

So why do these two religions and their sprouts do it?

Because they believe the end of the world is tomorrow and they don't want you to suffer in the eternal torment set aside by their loving god. Or for some christians, they look at it like a school fundraiser - the more signatures htey collect, the bigger the prize they get at the end. Any number of reasons, but the first one is the "official" reason.

I always try to convert them to each other's religions when htye come after me. Never mess with an atheist who has a sound grasp of seveal holy writs and no shame in showing off

Religious right wing terrorist here, sorry not to be able to answer why an atheist tries to convert anyone. I believe everyone should be allowed to believe what they will.

Just a funny to add to the thread. Here is how you get rid of people coming to your door trying to convert. A roommate and I were once watching football when the Knock at the door came. We have been visited quite regularly over the past few weeks. Frank answered the door and they asked him if they could come in and read the bible. Frank being a smart ass said sure they could come in because we were just starting our prayer session. The Jehovah's Witnesses asked what scripture were we reading from and Frank said we are just starting with the 3rd scripture of Lucifer in the 4th book of Beelzebub. They ran out faster than greased lightening. I said that wasn't very Christian of him, Frank being Christian, stated, "I cannot stand religious zealots". I could not stop laughing.

To each his own. Peace.

Here's my view on this subject:

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by ljib777

 

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding.

Wow...just wow...now we can't even think for ourselves...I'll refer to some recent posts of mine...

Religion: Usually informing it's followers that everything in the universe (including humans) was created by a God of some description, it relieves followers of the need to ask questions about reality, history and our origins. It totally strips you of any chance at independent thought, Christianity for example, a whole freaking book that dictates how you should live your entire life...was written by man, not a God...I'm not saying God(s) don't exist, or even that they didn't create us or the universe, just that no book on Earth contains the will of such an entity if one does exist...enough said.

All religions are different and full of lies about reality, sure, some of the stories my be good life lessons, but it's still the work of man, and a lot of the time, it's just plain bad advice. We don't REALLY know if the universe was created by a God, or if Gods(s) really exist. It's silly to accept everything you are told without evidence. Now you don't have to ask questions at all. Seemingly, some great book has answered everything for you. You now know where you came from and how you got here, you don't really have to ask questions about reality. You now know what's right and wrong. How can you accept all this and be content with it? It's an insult to independent thought.

In my eyes, religion takes us on a road in the completely opposite direction to where we should be headed. We shouldn't be reading a whole bunch of crap, accepting it as truth, and throw our questions out the window, we should be denying ignorance, we should be seeking real truth and answers, we should be asking questions (with totally open minds), and we should be doing it all without being mentally enslaved and manipulated by reality overlords. If any God(s) do exist, this is the way in which we will be able to know and feel it's existence.

Another good point:

most of you Christians have stated that we shouldn't take every word the bible says literally...and because it is a translation/interpretation from another language, which is probably an interpretation/translation from yet another language...how can we trust any of it? Assuming it was the work of God in the first place...how do we know man hasn't edited and changed it do his desire over time? How can we really know what to take as truth? How do we know what sections aren't the words of God? It's a guessing game...and I'm not for it...I don't need a book to tell me how to be a good person...I don't need the fear of hell or the desire for Heaven to help me be a better person...I don't need to be a good person so a God is happy with me...I am a good person without religion in my life...basically what I'm saying is...there is no point...we don't really know how the universe works...if a God exists...if we go to Heaven...etc...we really don't know...and you can't trust that bible to give you those answers...we need to decide for our selves...we need to do our own thinking...that way we might get some where...and maybe one day discover the truth...get some real answers...

Proverbs 3:5 “Trust in the lord with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding.”

If you think that will get you anywhere...think again...good day.

Just to make it clear...I am not Atheist...nor am I religious...

it's just as arrogant to say God doesn't exist, as it is to say he does exist IMO...so I just go about my life, being the best person I can...and that's all I can do...if God does exist...I just hope that's enough to get into Heaven...or at least avoid Hell...

[edit on 22/10/09 by CHA0S]

Ok.

I am an Atheist, and do actively engage any believer in discussion over their beliefs whenever I can. This being said, I do it non-agressively, as a teacher talks to a child. I have a very simple method. Confront them with one of the major contradictions in the bible (or other holy book), and explain the mechanism of faith. Show them that the mechanism of faith prevents them from acknowledging the contradiction. This generally gets people thinking, rather than blindly believing. Which is my only goal, really.

Why ? Because I am a humanist. I love my fellow man, without exception.

I was raised in very believing family. I have experienced true faith for god. I have felt that very comforting, blissful feeling.

As I grew up, I started asking questions. When these questions were not answered by anything rational, or simply could not be answered at all, I started to question. If god was real, why did he need me to believe in things that were so blatantly contradictory, historically false, moraly questionable ? As test of faith, I was told.

So then I looked into the psychological mechanisms of faith. I realised that faith is cyclic, it is built to prevent questioning. It is built in a circle : question=lack of faith=dismissal of question to the benefit of prayer for more faith. I stopped believing. I realised how crippled I had been by faith. How blinded. How it had prevented me from growing up. How it made me feel guilty and small. And how this had led me to the greatest folly of all : I had cast away my own species, for I believed that they were lost to sin. When actually, it was I who was lost in a small cultural dogma, which in the grand scale of things, will only be remembered as a source of conflict and division.

I have come far since then. But I have never forgotten, that rejecting god and organised religion set me free. I believe that if others experience that freedom, the world would be a better place. I became a better person. Less frightened. Capable of unconditional love. Capable of making my life what I wanted it to be. Capable of what allowed us to evolve as species : rational thought.

Hope this answered your question Op. As another poster said : atheism is less about rejecting god, than accepting humanity. I love my species. I want it to grow up, to evolve. Religion prevents this, is one of the factors which maintains the world as it is. I want the world to change, because we are better than what we have created. My faith now is in man. I just want man to have enough faith in himself.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Ismail]

Originally posted by Fromabove
It's all about convincing themselves of what they say they believe, all the while knowing that God is. It's a hard thing to do and it needs to be done daily. One slip and the ability to resist the truth of God could overtake them and cause them to accept truth.

I am agnostic - I don't believe or not believe - but the idea of a Big Brother style god as the bible, or koran or whatever portrays is nonsense.

I have no wish to 'convert' anyone - because it is impossible to remove beliefs from peoples minds - beliefs are not based on truth, and even rarely based on evidence - they are purely based on peoples desires. People believe what they wish, or what they want to be true.

Belief itself is entirely unfounded - which is why I am agnostic - I have no beliefs in regard the the topic at all - however, I do understand that I can threaten god and nothing happens. I also understand that if I pray for health, or luck, or even justice - it doesnt work.

You can believe what you want - but it doesnt change what is - only your perception of what is.

EDIT: I removed a bit of my post - I was pretty angry and I wrote a rebuke to God - thought it might offend people too much - sol removed it.

I dont fear god at all - so I was happy to attack him personally - but some religious types would have had an embolism reading what I wrote - so in the interests of peace - I removed it.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Amagnon]

reply to post by Ismail


thank you for your post. That was very well put together. And yes, that did answer my question.