Where is the Left's apology to Bush?

Undomiel I coudn't agree more with what you say. I had no problem with Islam until the Islamic extremists, OBL among them, started saying that they want Islam to dominate the world, and althou most moderates don't agree with the extremists they also want Islam to rule the world but are looking to do it in other ways.

If the laws of Islam are to be taken literally and they are not an evolving law, as the scholars are saying in above post, then they agree with what the Muslims tried to do in the 7th century, trying to conquer and bring the world under Islam by the sword.

I said it before and I'll say it again: If it's a choice between 2 meglomaniacs I'm going to choose the one that supports my freedoms and my ability to practice my faith. If indeed George Bush Jr. is a meglomaniac, and if indeed he is defending my rights as an american citizen not to be blown to smithereens, to exercise the freedom to leave my house without being draped in a shroud, and gives me the same voice in court as a man, and so forth and etc, then he's my guy! He may not always be right, but he's more right than the other meglomaniac as far as I'm concerned.

so christianity isnt trying to take over the world either? with their missionaries and bush throwing his morals at everyone? you really show your ignorance in your words. i agree there are some muslims who would want the world to be islamic, but the moderate ones are happy with a multi-religious world. sure they may want islam to be in charge, but i think anyone would want their religion to be the dominant one. and if you bring history into it, what about the inquisition forcing people to convert to christianity and torturing them if they didnt? you bag out on islam yet you are too blind to see that the christian side is and was just as bad. just because the christian fundamentalists have legit armies behind them deosnt make them any more right

Aye, it's more like... we are muslim. We don't want you to be hurt, but if the terrorists manage to bring you to your knees, then Allah has given us the victory and so we shall take it. It's human nature. It's not their fault. What is the problem is the terrorists are using the premise of islam by which to inflict their ideals on the rest of us, and their ideals are unbending - there's no personal freedom in sharia law. It's a poor substitute for democracy.

What the hell is this...

One second it's a war for oil, the next it's a holy war...

When will you guys make up your minds?

The fact is, Muslims hate us because we are not Muslim. We are not attacking them because they are not Christian, we are attacking them because they are not willing to stop this "jihad" that has claimed thousands of innocent civilian lives in Spain, America, Israel, and innumerable other non-Muslim or multi-religious nations around the world.

Killing people is bad, all right? No matter who's doing the killing, it's bad. But there are three ways to resolve this "jihad": one, America surrenders its most basic freedom and becomes a Muslim nation. Two, America refuses to surrender but acts as a pacifist nation, and continues to sustain terrorist attacks. Or, three, we fight back, we crush the extremists, and we go home until some other ill-advised radical takes it upon himself to blow something of ours up again.

Options two and three will result in human deaths. One of them will result in unprovoked civilian deaths, men and women that might be your mother, your son, your brother, or the woman who would one day discover the cure for cancer. The other will result in the deaths of volunteered soldiers on the front lines of a long and difficult war. If you like the first option, of course, I have a towel, a white flag, and a ticket to Afghanistan that's all yours.

You seem to see this as a fight for world domination... it isnt... but in my eyes both sides are as bad as the other, i would rather that they both blow the crap out of each other. and despite what you may think america isnt the free-est place on the planet (certainly more so than many islamic countries but not the free-est, and yes i know thats not a word). but this debate is getting stale. we have someone thinking the world issues are as simple as two parties wanting to rule the planet (the only party with that wish is the US party, the other party just wants the US to # off out of their region), andthat terrorists represent all muslims... obviously mis-informed

and xenographer, your post suggests that you feel only civilians who die in america count? all the options cause civilian lives, in fact the third option causes more civilian lives than the other two combined? but i guess if their not american then they dont count.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by specialasianX]

I must admit that this subject is never an easy one, and it has no hard and firm answers. Everything is fuzzy and undefined when it comes to philosophical approaches to politics, and as a result, we are both likely to be saying the same things in different ways. I think just as many islamic people would rather forego all the violence, as americans, so really, this is the non-issue part of the discussion. The real issue boils down to the terrorists wanting to exercise their domination via terrorism on whoever they see fit. And they do, and they have, and they continue to do so. Nothing is going to stop them from doing so, this much is a given.

As Xenographer pointed out our options are limited and none of them are attractive by any stretch of the imagination. I recall many years ago, worrying that we would be taken over by communists here in america until one day a guy said to me - "Sorry, but that will never happen. There's just too many guys in the backwoods and in the mountains and in the cities and in the sixteen wheelers and on their motorcycles and in the farms and in the desert, etc, with guns, who know how to use them, who can organize and fight, who will NEVER let that happen." I went away from that conversation feeling much relief, as I value my freedoms as an american. But terrorism is a whole 'nother situation altogether.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Undomiel]

But the same can be said about the US stopping at nothing untill their ideals are splashed across the world. Like i said both sides are in the wrong, its just i get upset when people generalise against islam coz i have roots in islamic culture just as i have roots it western culture. so for me i'm caught in the middle of this west vs islam thing (you should see out family dinners:shk: lol)...

And really you dont have to worry coz islam wont take over the world anytime in the near future. As you can see in iraq and afghanistan, most of the hardline islamic countries can barely goven themselves let alone get the world under their wing. If the terror groups / arab nations organised themselves and wanted to take over the world. At the most terrorism is just a thorn in the western worlds side. Its just your government makes it out to be a lot worse than it is... like the communist threat. And believe me i'd rather live in a western society than under sharia law, but i did live in malaysia and brunei and those countries arent all that bad to live in. They have westernised while still keeping their islamic identities.

I can't help but think our response was fairly civil in comparison to the response we had at Pearl Harbor. When our military was hit at Pearl Harbor, we went ballistic and nuked Japan! Now that was a big reaction. It was almost a surprise to me that we didn't have a bigger response to the world trade center situation, as the victims there were all civilians. I think the reason it wasn't a nuclear response is primarily because we realized after Nagasaki and Hiroshima that such a response was just all kinds of wrong. Strategic removal was the new solution. Hunt down the cells and eliminate them, rather than wipe out entire cities populations in response. Sigh. War sucks.

Anyway, yes I've read about the moderate islamic nations, they have limited sharia laws, which makes them habitable by human beings. I say human beings because you'd almost have to be a monster to treat women the way sharia law requires when in full effect.

Originally posted by specialasianX
Undomiel

There is no evidence that any terror groups have any WMD's and there is little to no chance they will take over the world. as for sharia-law, it isnt actually an islamic teaching,

Do I need to say more about the above post?

specialasian, first, any evidence of wmd in the hands of terrorists will be found in the form of another terrorist act, unfortunately. Second, many high ranking officers of Al Qaeda, and other intelligence groups outside of the US, have said the terrorists (Al Qaeda included) do have at least some wmd, and through the Russian black market anyone, including terrorists, can buy wmd or anything else.

As for there is no chance that they are taking over the world, it seems they are trying hard. I posted the view of a French man who talks about what is happening in many cities in France as France accepts more and more radical Islam, even thou there are some things they have done against it, they are still accepting it.

You also should have read the one post by another member that from the state about some people getting mad with a city accepting the Muslim calls for prayer which starts at 6 am.

Refer to this thread.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also, althou I do agree that what the Christian crusades did was horrible, you have to ask yourself why did it start? The first crusade was the Muslim crusade which subjugated Spain, Italy, and France among others for over 600 years, then came the Christian crusades.

In these times Christians understand that committing violent acts on others to change their religion is not what Christ was supposed to have taugh.

Do you see any Christians sending their kids with bombs strapped to their chests? or using any violent act killing thousands that do not share their views?

Look at history and see the difference between the actions of Jesus and Muhammed. Sharia and Islam is a non-evolving religion...

I am not Christian but I would prefer to live, like we are living now, under a Christian country rather than an Islamic one.

Muadib i never mentioned the crusades, i was more referring to the inquisitions, but islam in the middle ages did more for the world than christianity did. As for islam being non-evolving, thats utter BS! the countries i have stated above have evolved islam to suit a modern world. Kuwait has doen the same. there are many muslims who live a modern (i.e western life and still embrace their beliefs). Sharia law is something i dont agree with but it isnt actually something that is stated in the quran (trust me i've read it to find out), its just the way the people of the region have evolved their culture.

And no i dont see christians sending kids with bombs on their chests, thats coz the country who represent christian power has more technology under their belt, and yes i do see the USA's christian president sending his people totheir death and killing thousands of civilians, i see it on the news everyday.

in response to what specialasian?

In response for the murder of 3,000 civilians that Islamic extremists committed, and the deaths they have committed in Spain and other countries.

Islam did more for the world in the middle ages? You mean like attacking caravans and Muhammed himself killing with others jewish people that had surrended and taking over slaves and wives of 9 years old?

BTW, under Islamic law you are a bad Muslim and Islamic extremists kill people like you because they do not follow the Quran to the letter.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Muaddib]

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by MacMerdin]

Originally posted by TrueLies
You say invade others say liberate.

When the German's ran over to west germany for freedom it's because America went in there and "invaded" them, tore down the wall and let people go free from a communist murderous government.

I haven't finished the thread yet, so if this has already been commented on....forgive me. I wasn't aware that we "invaded" Germany in 1989-90 when the wall came down. Since I was in Berlin in 1991, I'm sure glad I didn't become another Nick Berg due to this war. Please explain....I'm confused.

My last post didn't quote right, so I had to change it.....sorry.

and xenographer, your post suggests that you feel only civilians who die in america count? all the options cause civilian lives, in fact the third option causes more civilian lives than the other two combined? but i guess if their not american then they dont count.

Did I say that?

Point out where I said that.

Did I not mention Spain and Israel, and, I believe, "innumerable other nations"?

Yeah, they're in there too.

People are gonna die. All we can do is see to it that the number of such people is minimized, and that they volunteered.

Now stop spinning... you're making me dizzy.

Originally posted by Faisca
Well see, I don't consider finding one shell filled with sarin gas to be justification for the entire war. Who knows where that shell could have come from? It could have come from any other country surrounding Iraq, maybe even something al Qaeda had.

I have no doubt that Saddam had WMDs, but this shell isn't enough to justify the war, to me... I don't really think any apology needs to be given.

well the only thing that matters is that our guys found it before it went off.

well the only thing that matters is that our guys found it before it went off.

This is wrong they found the bomb contained sarin after it exploded. The IED went off before it could be deactivated. The explosion didn't fully disperse the contents or the damage could have been worse.
ATSN link


Variable

Originally posted by Variable

well the only thing that matters is that our guys found it before it went off.

This is wrong they found the bomb contained sarin after it exploded. The IED went off before it could be deactivated. The explosion didn't fully disperse the contents or the damage could have been worse.
ATSN link


Variable

either way they were lucky

Originally posted by Muaddib
in response to what specialasian?

In response for the murder of 3,000 civilians that Islamic extremists committed, and the deaths they have committed in Spain and other countries.

Islam did more for the world in the middle ages? You mean like attacking caravans and Muhammed himself killing with others jewish people that had surrended and taking over slaves and wives of 9 years old?

BTW, under Islamic law you are a bad Muslim and Islamic extremists kill people like you because they do not follow the Quran to the letter.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Muaddib]

How about the thousands killed by US provoked wars ans sanctions? just because they weren't properly documented or they weren't US citizens doesnt make them less important. I dont see 3000 Americans dying as being more tragic than thousands of people in africa, the middle east and central asia due to US actions. We can get into a circular argument about who started the fight, but in the end the US is no more right than the terrorists, they are just more powerful so what they says is automatically (supoosedly) legitimate.

For a start in that era killing prisoners, taking slaves and marrying young wives was common across the world, so stop with your propaganda making it look like it was only muslim who were like that. In fact while the christain Europe was being held back by the church from the fall of rome right up untill the renaisance, the muslim caliphate was embracing new ideas, inventing and trading with the east. In the so called 'dark ages' the caliphate was a beacon of light for science and progress while the christian europe hid in fear of advancement.

Muadib, what evidence do you have to show i am a bad muslim, or even a muslim at all? none whatsoever! that was just an attempt to try and play with my faith. I will put you straight. No I am not a bad muslim. I am not muslim, i had been, but i have since renounced the faith. BUT i know enough about the religion to pass off as a good muslim when i visit muslim relatives. I can lead prayers, i can fast, and yes i can even abstain from alcohol and sex if the need be. And Muadib you obviously know so little about the religion so who are you to say if i'm a good or bad muslim! You know nothing about islamic law and following the quran to the book. You dont have to follow it to every letter. Yes there would be some muslim who feel it needs to be followed word for word but once again every religion has its fundamentalists. Your comments are consistantly really ignorant you know that

Hello again.

I think the difference here is in one instance there's some indication that war/battle/skirmish on some level is about to begin. In terrorism, no one gets that chance or advanced warning. It's immediate and outside the laws of any land I can think of. Name a country, anywhere on the globe, that has legalized terrorism of any kind outside of Palestine (lol that's a given). Let's say you live in France. You go to a streetside cafe' to have a nice cup of mocha-flavored coffee, when suddenly an explosion takes place across the street hurling tons of glass, twisted metal and broken cement block in your direction. Outside of worrying that your coffee might be ruined, there's a good chance you'd be saying really fast prayers to whatever God you believe in and running as far away from the explosion as possible. Now let's look at this from another perspective. You're sitting at the same cafe' having your mocha coffee when suddenly you hear a loud noise and having seering pain in your body. You realize you can barely breath and that everything is getting dark rather quickly. 2 seconds later, you're dead from a mass of machine gun fire to your head cause the guy that owned the cafe' you were eating at is french jew and a muslim terrorist has decided to end his little financial establishment. It doesn't matter if the guy is really is a french jew or not, all that matters to that terrorist is his perception of the guy. It doesn't matter if the guy has ever done anything wrong to that man in his life, maybe his brother's second cousin's sister's boyfriend's nephew worked for some corporation in 2 decades ago, that ended up building a factory that produced material that is sold to israelis among others and the terrorist has taken it upon himself to mete out judgement to everyone in the guy's family/friends/etc. really, terrorism needs no excuses at all, it kills at will, without regard, without purpose, without the law, outside the law, in direct contradiction to the laws of pretty much the entire world and the spiritual realm as well.

[Edited on 20-5-2004 by Undomiel]