No plane theory is a Hoax!!!

Originally posted by ugie1028

if your stating that the likes of dave are the ones who push the theory, wouldn't he be gleefully agreeing to the NPT?

i dont think he is, unless i am mistaken.

Read spreston's post again. He's not saying that I agree with the NPT. His post is a not too well veiled accusation that I'm some secret gov't agent sent to discredit you all, with one tactic I'm supposedly using being the NPT to make you all look like kooks by association.

The thing is, this is circular logic. The truthers clearly think that there's a conspiracy and coverup orchestrated by the gov't, so anythign which refutes them...or in spreston's case, anyone who subscribes to even weirder conspiracies...just has to be coming from secret gov't agents as well. It's not proving anything, it's expanding the original statament in an attempt to prove itself.

For the sake of our agreement on this point I'll hold off on going into that any further, so I'll simply say that regardless of whether there is or is not a conspiracy or a coverup, it's still undeniable...yes, pinch yourself, spreston, it's really true...that there really and truly are genuine crackpots out there who'd be pushing out fringe stories exactly like the NPT. Not everythign in the world has to be a secret gov't plot or another.

Heck, there are people who even think the 9/11 attack was committed by shapeshifting alien lizards from outer space. Try to figure THAT one out.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


No, the debunkers would love nothing more then the Truth Movement to fade into oblivion.

I mean, seriously who else has such a motive? You have seen Sept Clues correct? Most of the stuff there is deliberate deception.

That some people post here believing this stuff doesn't mean they are part of the debunker crowd or Gov, it just means they bought into the most ludicrous of ideas. The idea itself is to make and poke fun at the Truth Movement.

Now who would have a motive to do such a thing?

The motive has to be with Debunkers.

Who else tells a group of eyewitnesses that they never really saw a UFO? Only debunkers do stuff like this. The other is the Gov.

Who else is trying to tell hundreds if not thousands of people that they didn't see a plane?

If something other then a plane flew over New York City of all places, there would be a riot. I think we can agree on that.There is no way the Gov could control all the Talk Radio/ Amateur Footage, Other News having their private footage etc and etc.

So this theory is ridiculous. I can only think of two who have such motives.

#1. Debunkers
#2. Gov as in Conintelpro

reply to post by ugie1028

Kudos to you for posting a vantage point shot of where you were when you saw the first tower hit! You are in a very select group of people to have actually seen that impact.

You were quite a distance away from the towers. The aircraft would have banked to show you it's belly before the impact. The belly would have been dark in shadow at that time of day. Here is your description of the planes:

the planes were all silver, solid silver. if anything, the planes were no American airliners, but planes DID IN FACT hit the towers!

I think on a witness stand a good cross examiner might be able to force you to admit that you couldn't be sure that the planes were painted or not, given the possibility of narrow striping or a belly painted that couldn't be discerned in shadow.

When you say that the planes were not American airliners, you echo the words of a lady from Brooklyn captured on film at the time of the second hit who said the same thing. If I were cross examining you, I might ask what distinguished these planes from American airliners in your mind at the time.

What was it about them?

I'm not doubting what you are saying, but for eyewitness testimony to be worth anything it has to contain detail that lends it credibility.

I wish you would post a vantage point shot showing where you were when you saw the second impact. That would be outstanding!

There have to be only a few people outside of George W. Bush's limosine who actually saw both aircraft impact the towers live. Wow! What are the chances of that? To see both of the aircraft impacts that day! Incredible!

And you're from Jersey City? How about that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury? That's got to be the dream of every kid in Jersey City, to see New York get smacked twice in one day. You gotta be a celebrity over there in Jersey, huh ugie?

Believe me, the cross examination would go on for longer than it takes to read this post.

Why are you sure the planes weren't American airliners?

Originally posted by ugie1028
reply to post by ATH911

 

really what are you trying to get out of this? an honest answer?

ive been honest, and ill stick by my statements, PLANES hit the Twin Towers.

take it as you want, im sticking by it. i saw what i saw, and im 100% certain W/O a doubt that PLANES hit the towers. i saw them hit.

there is a difference between the pentagon and the WTC, i saw the ones hit the WTC. i didint see a plane hit the pentagon because i was not THERE.

Lets try to stay on topic here. this was about the NPT with the WTC, and not the pentagon.

no more pentagon questions please.

why? because it screws up your logic and you have to rethink your THEORY about seeing planes at the WTC when theres no consistency in the theory at the pentagon? While the OP was talking about the wtc, when discussing NRPT and calling it BS, you can't ignore the lack of proof of a PLANE hitting the pentagon and the contradicting testimony there as well. SOME DID, SOME DIDN'T. And the evidence imo is overwhelming there was ANOTHER massive deception at the pentagon as CIT have proven... If no plane hit the pentagon, then why use real planes to hit the WTC? Or iow, the impacts at the WTC were ALSO DEDUCED... imo NRPT has two primary points of view... 1) the objects were missles disguised to look like planes or appeared to be what looked like planes from a distance...... AND 2) the planes were deduced and nothing hit the towers...

I put the most credence in the FIRST pov.

but the MSM were used to broadcast cgi fakery to reinforce the deception of REAL PLANES... which were missles or nothing at all and cgi planes were inserted.

Actually, I have found the No Plane Theory to be one of the most Laughable of the 911 trueth movement - right next to super thermite, holographic planes, alien involvement......

Blah....Blah....Blah....yadda.....yadda....yadda.

But there is more evidence for NO Planes than there is, for planes

Originally posted by nwodeath
But there is more evidence for NO Planes than there is, for planes

That is not even true. You have loads of EMP who witnessed the plane (are they all lying?)

Who have eyewitnesses in the building who saw it coming.

Who have New York City watching the event unfold.
In fact all of it is--

You saw this debate?
video.google.com...#


The theory of No Planes requires people on mass to shut up.
Requires an enormous amount of people to be outright involved and we are talking the ordinary joe's out there.
It requires all amateur footage to be in the hands of the Gov, which is plumb impossible, and if possible then what the heck is anyone allowed to discuss it for?
It requires that the Military is so stupid that they would risk such a plan with all of New York watching, with countless camera's and other news organizations looking.
It requires that the Airline's themselves are involved.

Eyewitness Testimony is not always accurate. But when it is corroborated by people in good position then you have nothing left to argue.

Even *IF* you don't want to accept the explanations on a lot of this stuff, video fakery would only mean that there was video fakery and not NO PLANES.

The fact there was Planes is supported by the Corroborated Testimony and the Amateur footage on the day.

EDIT

This is a good example of what different angles can do

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 20-10-2009 by talisman]

Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by ugie1028

 

Kudos to you for posting a vantage point shot of where you were when you saw the first tower hit! You are in a very select group of people to have actually seen that impact.

You were quite a distance away from the towers. The aircraft would have banked to show you it's belly before the impact. The belly would have been dark in shadow at that time of day. Here is your description of the planes:

the planes were all silver, solid silver. if anything, the planes were no American airliners, but planes DID IN FACT hit the towers!

I think on a witness stand a good cross examiner might be able to force you to admit that you couldn't be sure that the planes were painted or not, given the possibility of narrow striping or a belly painted that couldn't be discerned in shadow.

When you say that the planes were not American airliners, you echo the words of a lady from Brooklyn captured on film at the time of the second hit who said the same thing. If I were cross examining you, I might ask what distinguished these planes from American airliners in your mind at the time.

What was it about them?

I'm not doubting what you are saying, but for eyewitness testimony to be worth anything it has to contain detail that lends it credibility.

I wish you would post a vantage point shot showing where you were when you saw the second impact. That would be outstanding!

There have to be only a few people outside of George W. Bush's limosine who actually saw both aircraft impact the towers live. Wow! What are the chances of that? To see both of the aircraft impacts that day! Incredible!

And you're from Jersey City? How about that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury? That's got to be the dream of every kid in Jersey City, to see New York get smacked twice in one day. You gotta be a celebrity over there in Jersey, huh ugie?

Believe me, the cross examination would go on for longer than it takes to read this post.

Why are you sure the planes weren't American airliners?

i am sure because my vision was next to perfect in 2001. if it was brought up in court, i would provide documents proving my good sight. i would LOVE to take a polygraph.

Stuff like this is engraved in my mind, it still feels like yesterday. i remember my school be used (during the days after 9/11) as an emergency blood center since we had a medical lab there. (random point to remember.) but yea, i remember it like rewinding a video. i still cant believe i witnessed it, but im here to help any way i can with getting the story right.

Here is where i was when i saw the second plane strike...
(image below)
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ce0ad26e5b03.jpg[/atsimg]
files.abovetopsecret.com...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/549b18a8ef4e.jpg[/atsimg]
files.abovetopsecret.com...

the red dots show where i was when i saw the second plane hit. if i ever get around to going back to county prep, ill see if they let me take a few images of where i was standing and show you guys the skyline. for now i have to rely on GE.

for being on the witness stand, no ones going to force me to do anything, or cause me to retract my statements, i know what i saw.

for your celebrity comment, wow, random as hell. i dont know how to respond to that!

[edit on 10/20/2009 by ugie1028]

Thanks for posting the second photo, although I am disappointed that you didn't include a graphic representation of where in the picture the towers would be, as you did with the first picture.

Originally posted by ugie1028

From post by ipsedixit
Why are you sure the planes weren't American airliners?

i am sure because my vision was next to perfect in 2001. if it was brought up in court, i would provide documents proving my good sight. i would LOVE to take a polygraph.

The cross examining attorney would say:

What did you see, with your next to perfect vision, that made you think it wasn't an American airliner? Your vision must have noted some difference between what you saw and an American airliner.

What was that difference?

The jury wants you to take the court into your confidence and share that intelligence with them so that they could also be sure that the planes were not American airliners.

As the photo's show, the planes had markings. You saw very diffuse light which is what "silver" is.

reply to post by ipsedixit


i wish i could give u a better photo from the school but i was showing the second floor in the first one, and the GE view from right above the school.

that's why i tried to explain that if i go back to the school or pass by that i would ask if i could take a picture from the exact spot like in the first image i provided.

IF i do go back to the school i will see if the same video teacher is still there. HE MAY have video. you can hear the reactions in the video, you can even hear the kids breaking down because they feared for their parents lives....

blah, horrible recollection. ill work with what i can work with.

Originally posted by jimbo2167
reply to post by ugie1028

 

What if the planes you saw were missiles designed to look like planes, would
that also be a hoax?

Thats a very good point. Who aint to say they wasnt missles with long wings on them. Hmm Ill give ya a star for that.

What is truly the argument here? There is no productivity from this. The points were made on the first page. Don't you realize that simply by dwelling you play their game?

reply to post by matronmedusa


The argument, or more the OPs argument is that because (s)he claimed to see it happen, no one is allowed to post a NPT as it obviously hurts his/her feelings. And being as the NPT is mostly based on dubious video footage, the fact that the OP completely dismisses it because (s)he was allegedly there is denying ignorance in my opinion.

It's pathetic and petty. Posting about how you hate a conspiracy theory, on a conspiracy website? Talk about snorezzzzzville.

It's the same old crap spouted by the invisible truth movement, who themselves can't agree on anything between them so they constantly attack the NPT. All they ever do is accuse those posting as being disinfo artists and holding back the TM, which ironically does absolutely nothing for the cause anyway.

A lot of the TM phonies here only ever post on NPT threads anyway. It seems to be that's all they are on ATS for. (hello bonezzzzzzzzzz).

Originally posted by talisman

No, the debunkers would love nothing more then the Truth Movement to fade into oblivion.

I mean, seriously who else has such a motive? You have seen Sept Clues correct? Most of the stuff there is deliberate deception.

You're seriously asking for the motive for why crazy people believe what they believe? Well, Charles Manson believed the Beatle's song, "Helter Skelter" was directing him to murder white people and frame it on black people to instigate a race war. Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon becuase he thought he was reading secret passages in the book, "Catcher in the Rye". John Hinkley tried to kill Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. I even know one guy who told me in all seriousness that I should never shine a flashlight up in the sky at night, because that will attract the UFOs and they'll come and kidnap me(!) If you can figure out how they originally wound up believing these wacko ideas to begin with, then you're a better man than I am.

That's not to say that all people who believe the NPT are crazy, far from it. I also include A) gullible, and B) have some financial stake in putting out such rubbish. If memory serves, the whole "cruise missile at the Pentagon" idea got started when some French guy wrote a book on it.

That some people post here believing this stuff doesn't mean they are part of the debunker crowd or Gov, it just means they bought into the most ludicrous of ideas. The idea itself is to make and poke fun at the Truth Movement.

I doubt it. If there were really any genuine gov't secret disinformation agents, they'd be releasing disinformation that'd be at least plausible sounding. They wouldn't be releasing utter nonsense to attract that one out of 100,000 people gullible enough to believe it.

Something just occurred to me- suppose the "controlled demolitions" conspiracy story is, in itself, gov't disinformation and some OTHER as yet unknown event actually occurred?? Wouldn't THAT blow your mind?

The motive has to be with Debunkers.

Who else tells a group of eyewitnesses that they never really saw a UFO? Only debunkers do stuff like this. The other is the Gov.

No, actually, I tell people that as well, becuase I know that 90% of the time they're misidentifying what they see. The other day I saw footage on TV that supposedly showed a mysterious UFO floating above a town, and I flipping could see right away that it was a cluster of helium filled balloons that got away from a party somewhere. Little wonder why so many people who gathered for a celebration downtown happened to see it.

Good analogy for the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, actually.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by talisman

No, the debunkers would love nothing more then the Truth Movement to fade into oblivion.

I mean, seriously who else has such a motive? You have seen Sept Clues correct? Most of the stuff there is deliberate deception.

Something just occurred to me- suppose the "controlled demolitions" conspiracy story is, in itself, gov't disinformation and some OTHER as yet unknown event actually occurred?? Wouldn't THAT blow your mind?

The motive has to be with Debunkers.

Who else tells a group of eyewitnesses that they never really saw a UFO? Only debunkers do stuff like this. The other is the Gov.

Good analogy for the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, actually.

Actually, goodoldave,
I think the "bombs in the buildings" was another red herring. I think there were bombs in the buildings, but it was not bombs that melted the steel and twisted it and evaporated it, that was something much more powerful, and it was not thermite, either.

The whole story is lies, and most of the 9-11 truth movement is pushing disinformation, either intentionally or otherwise.

No planes hit the world trade center on 9-11, and if anyone can prove they did, it would have been proven already.

Originally posted by nwodeath
Actually, goodoldave,
I think the "bombs in the buildings" was another red herring. I think there were bombs in the buildings, but it was not bombs that melted the steel and twisted it and evaporated it, that was something much more powerful, and it was not thermite, either.

Good GOD you're not referring to the "lasers from outer space" claims coming from Judy Wood, are you?

No planes hit the world trade center on 9-11, and if anyone can prove they did, it would have been proven already.

Well, that's the problem right there, isn't it? There were 100,000 real, live people in the vicinity (this WAS Manhattan, after all) who specifically saw that they were planes. There is video from every camera in Manhattan from every concievable angle that specifically showed there were planes. They found the parts of the actual aircraft in the wreckage of the towers that specifically showed it was planes. We even have one guy right here, the same guy who started this very thread, who saw with HIS own eyes that it was planes. It isn't the problem that there's no proof. The problem is that you want a different scenario to be true so you refuse to accept the legitimacy of the proof.

I invite you to prove me wrong- If you do not consider any of that to be legitimate proof, then what WOULD you consider to be legitimate proof, that planes hit the towers? I really don't know what's left.

I don't think any theory that anyone has should be kept secret. I think its good to hear others ideas on what might be. If you cant handle it or you think its wasting your time then I suggest you don't read it.

This is a conspiracy site, the whole point is to think outside the box. If you are happy with whatever version of events you choose to believe and don't want to consider anything else then I'm happy for you. You can go and take up another hobby, golf, art, knitting.

I enjoy hearing all the various theories about 911. I'm convinced the OS is incorrect. I havn't settled on my final version yet.

Originally posted by thesneakiod
A lot of the TM phonies here only ever post on NPT threads anyway. It seems to be that's all they are on ATS for.

I've noticed there are lots of people in the truth movement who only seem to in the movement to debunk NPT. I never really see them trying to debunk the official story.

Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by thesneakiod
A lot of the TM phonies here only ever post on NPT threads anyway. It seems to be that's all they are on ATS for.

I've noticed there are lots of people in the truth movement who only seem to in the movement to debunk NPT. I never really see them trying to debunk the official story.

THAT'S how I spot the disinfo clowns from the real truth researchers.
When you put tons of effort into one thing, like debunking No Planes Theories, then it becomes obvious there is an agenda taking place, not just some innocent interest in truth.