The threat of “martial law” is a red herring

I DO believe that the threat of martial law MAY BE a red herring as you state, but I have one disagreement with your figures. It's irrelevant, but I don't think you can use population density, OR square miles. Either one of these will lead to misperceptions.

I'm sure some uniform-wearing bean counter has figured it our somewhere, but as one stated above, this isn't so much a mathematics issue.

If it were all about math, we wouldn't BE the United States of America. To push the american people into a statistic will only back fire. There certainly ARE a lot of people that would reluctant to stand up, a lot of people that will be traitors to their countrymen and, in my opinion, a lot more that will resist in ways so minor, but compounding as to be a major force to be considered.

On the other side of the coin, I don't think anyone would necessarily HAVE to control the whole country and it's ENTIRE population. If you control a few key elements, as stated above, of this nation, you eliminate the majority of the resistance.

Fuel, communications, food...just those three will smack an awful lot of folks into line. Given the prevalence of monopolistic control of these necessities, control will be much easier than I think a lot of people care to consider.

As far as the red herring, we have seen the threat of martial law used by members of our governing body to speed up the adoption of legislation. It was unwarranted in the context it was used, but the warning of it IS apparently a very favored method for motivating skeptical lawmakers.

What some fail to consider, but I know some also don't is that the United States is not made up of battleships and missile launchers and nuclear weapons and high-tech killing machines. It's made up of Americans. The elite might have STARTED all of wars, but it was the rank and file American that finished them.

reply to post by KSPigpen

I DO believe that the threat of martial law MAY BE a red herring as you state, but I have one disagreement with your figures. It's irrelevant, but I don't think you can use population density, OR square miles. Either one of these will lead to misperceptions.

OK, what are the misperceptions? You didn't say what they are.

As far as the red herring, we have seen the threat of martial law used by members of our governing body to speed up the adoption of legislation. It was unwarranted in the context it was used, but the warning of it IS apparently a very favored method for motivating skeptical lawmakers.

If you are referring to the passage of the "stimulus" bill, you are wrong.

Here is the "martial law" you refer to, and it has nothing to do with the military taking over:

... Under the martial law procedure, longstanding House rules that require at least one day between the unveiling of significant legislation and the House floor vote on that legislation — so that Members can learn what they are being asked to vote on — are swept away. Instead, under “martial law,” the Leadership can file legislation with tens or hundreds of pages of fine print and move immediately to debate and votes on it, before Members of Congress, the media, or the public have an opportunity to understand fully what provisions have been altered or inserted into the legislation behind closed doors. This is the procedure that the Leadership intends to use to muscle through important bills in the next two days. ...

Source

Really it's as simple as cutting off power, water and sewer service. Three to five days without those and people will gladly relocate anywhere as long as those needs are met. After that it's simply a matter of picking the right locations for the people to be stabled so that a small number of armed guards can control a huge group of people by controling their food and water. Once you have those two elements in control it's not hard to break spirits and physically weaken the people to the point they become as docile as a puppy with a full stomach.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by PSUSA
Who exactly is going to enforce it?

Interesting argument, but flawed. Martial Law isnt merely the state of actual military personnel patrolling the streets to enforce military laws. It's the state of military rule trumping civilian laws (ie Constitution) and control being administered top down from the military over civilian rule.

So in this light, if 'martial law' were decreed, military rule would trump civil liberties, and all federal, state and local authorities would work underneath military forces to execute military laws. Non military forces would be militarized. The Constitution / Bill of Rights would be out the window.

Correct me if I'm wrong in my definition of martial law, but under my definition we're technically about half way under military rule. If you don't believe me, go out and start protesting in the streets. May you not be proven wrong with a rubber boot kick to the face and constant electronic surveillance from that point on. Ods are by posting at this site you're already under more electronic surveillance than you would be, if thats to be any gauge to the notions of martial law / police state.

If you manage to pull up the actual numbers of all domestic federal agents and their more local police force counterparts and then add that to your first number of military personnel that might be some chance your OP is plausible, but I personally doubt it.

And even if that leaves us with an abysmal number in police forces, to answer your question, it appears as if they're already steps ahead on thae number of domestic military personnel in the form of civilian military draft noise, and Obama's "civilian national security force" "just as large, just as well funded as the military". Following that, the military has a nearly $1 trillion budget that is mostly spent outside the US, meaning $1T in the US in addition to the existing police apparatus would be a monster the world has never witnessed.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

reply to post by IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Ods are by posting at this site you're already under more electronic surveillance than you would be, if thats to be any gauge to the notions of martial law / police state.

I used to think that. I don't anymore.

Frankly, I'm just not that important, and no one else here is either. And, there's too many of us to monitor.

Are they doing this? I really don't know. Even if they are, it's pointless to stop now. Personally I don't believe anyone should let the mere threat of surveillance stop them from speaking out. This self censorship does seem to be the goal here.

Following that, the military has a nearly $1 trillion budget that is mostly spent outside the US, meaning $1T in the US in addition to the existing police apparatus would be a monster the world has never witnessed.

But they dont spend money like we do. You dont steal from the kitty, or pay people off, do you? If you have $1000, then you get $1000 in merchandise. When they spend a grand, they get a few nuts and bolts. The rest is in kickbacks.

Just before 9/11, didn't Rummy say something about 2 trillion that is "missing"? 9/11 covered up that story for them very well.

reply to post by debunky


You're right, it is dependent upon the level of control you wish to exert. Again, they do have the capability of setting up roadblocks and such to cut off cities if they wish, but on a national scale, they're at least one order of magnitude short of the force levels required to control what happens inside all of those cities. If they were to attempt to level a city as an example, it would have less than desirable effects, to say the least. If they're that ruthless, people would realize that they have nothing to lose by fighting back.

Ultimately, the key to success or failure of such an action would be public perception and whether they believe the illusion of full control that a military force was attempting to establish. As someone said, cut the fuel, electricity, food and lines of communication and many people will have their spirits broken and fall in line. But if push comes to shove and the public rises up, the military is spread too thin to actually enforce full control on a national basis.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by vor78]

Originally posted by PSUSA
And, there's too many of us to monitor.

Their artificially intelligent machines have what it takes. And their power grows exponentially, unlike the growth of human population.

Personally I don't believe anyone should let the mere threat of surveillance stop them from speaking out.

I agree. In fact if EVERYBODY 'raised red flags' in their comms it would definitely give the machines a run for their money. And besides what are they going to round everyone up? So the problem is not enough people raise red flags.

But they dont spend money like we do. You dont steal from the kitty, or pay people off, do you? If you have $1000, then you get $1000 in merchandise. When they spend a grand, they get a few nuts and bolts. The rest is in kickbacks.

Youre right about the kickbacks, but the real 'losses' arent lost. Instead those funds go to black projects... such as the machines they spy on us with.


[edit on 18-10-2009 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I was having this same thought driving through rural tx and going fishing on the coast. There's so much space, and there's still plenty of people who can take care of themselves.

If this martial law does go down, it will be because of some crisis or crisi. They're not just going to roll out and declare, "We're taking over."

They would shut down the internet and communications. Leave everyone guessing. Let two weeks go by, make sure everyone is nice and hungry, then roll out the tanks throwing out food like a homecoming parade.

They'll send Mercs to take care of holdouts.

It could be a pandemic or bioweapon like practiced in NLRE 09 or nuke-city with an EMP. Hopefully this never happens but...

Sounds like a good plan to unleash the largest military in the world on the largest armed populace in the world. Both stand in the way of world government so why not sacrifice the greatest country in the world for the sake of everyone else, to make a global government necessary. It's not meant to succeed, it's to take us out of the game.

Well it's just my opinion anyways,

All they have to do is control the roads and the food supply.

reply to post by calstorm


Actually, its even easier. Forget the military. That's the hard way. If you want to control the populace, turn them into a bunch of government dependents. Once they're on the government dole and expect the feds to take care of them, you can make people do whatever you want them to.

If you promise the moon and then deliver on it, the lemmings will willingly follow you off a cliff.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by vor78]

reply to post by wylee

Sounds like a good plan to unleash the largest military in the world on the largest armed populace in the world. Both stand in the way of world government so why not sacrifice the greatest country in the world for the sake of everyone else, to make a global government necessary. It's not meant to succeed, it's to take us out of the game.

That is why I think they could still try it. But I see .mil and the pigs being tied up in the inner cities.

Taking away peoples food and transportation etc. would only make more resistance.

It's a numbers game. Yes, I agree that a majority will probably roll over, but a majority isn't needed to take the enemy down. But I have a tendency to believe that this house of cards they built is crashing down on them apart from anything we've done or could ever do.

Unleashing martial law, IMO, would be done in a panic, as a last ditch measure to keep us in line after their system crashes, not as some grand plan to take over the world.

They'll send Mercs to take care of holdouts.

If they dont have enough .mil to take care of it, they sure won't have enough mercenaries to take care of it.

Besides, it's not as if we'll all be standing around twiddling our thumbs, you know?

I think that to make this work you would need to have some if not most of the population under control to start with. H1N1 spreads out enough to get the majority sick and then the sick will lean on the government for the aid they need. Plus you have elderly who would do as they were told. People who depend on medicine and other treatments just to make it through the day. They won’t have much resistance from any of these folks. You factor in parents who want to keep their families safe and they will play fallow the leader also. For this to work timing would be everything.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by I-V-X-X]

Originally posted by Helig
Really it's as simple as cutting off power, water and sewer service. Three to five days without those and people will gladly relocate anywhere as long as those needs are met. After that it's simply a matter of picking the right locations for the people to be stabled so that a small number of armed guards can control a huge group of people by controling their food and water. Once you have those two elements in control it's not hard to break spirits and physically weaken the people to the point they become as docile as a puppy with a full stomach.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Great post lets expound on it a bit.
Ok here we go , lets play a game.
The U.S. is devided into 10 FEMA regions. At the top it is decided that martial law is to be implemented in lets say FEMA region six for example. Easy enough to acheive. Winter being the best time to enact such a plan. first they cut off the natural gas supply. are you cold yet? say you got electric heat? 3 days later they selectively pul the jacks on the power lines. Think you will go and push them back in? guess you didnot notice they removed the HV fuses. now your oil furnaces or electric heat is off. Refrigeration is off as well. did I here you say that you have a 500 gallon propane tank burried in your yard and its full? Good choice if your stove doesnot need electricticy. Got 4 or so cords of firewood? good choice provided that your wood stove does not need electricity. Hope that is a wood COOK STOVE other wise guess you are hungery. Now the energy grid is shut down in region 6. Say you can cook outside on a fire? good choice provided the winter weather cooperates and that you have cast iron cook ware. Next they close the major food distribution centers. Grocery stores only carry a three day supply. Got food? Now you are cold and eating up your food to keep up your strength and body heat. Now they reduce your water pressure to a trickle, just as Israle does to the Palestine folke. Thursty yet? need a bath yet? week 2 guess you folke are cold , hungry, and getting sick. Now the looters start. Say you are going to flee the region? how do you do that with out gasoline? Chaos erupts, are you afraid yet? if not they continue to let the conditions deteroriate until the masess yield and beg for intervention. in comes the SAVIORS with food and medicine, only catch is that you must go to federal work camps. say you do not believe they exhist? guess you havent been reading the Federal Regester which containe the executive orders including the one that states that the people will be placed in these work camps under federal supervision, including the right to split up families. Did not know that. go read for your self. o but its too late you and your family got on the buss and arrived at the SHELTER CAMP and were seperated for Processing. You see it took no tanks or planes nor a vast army to subdue the people. We have allready defeated ourselves.Do not bother to call for help the communications lines were cut at the start. Remember Katrina?
Think about it . Its called the boiling frog approach. Drop a frog in boiling water and it will jump out, place the frog in cold water and slowely raise the temperature and the frog will boil to death.
Think about it.
Failure is not an option,
slayerof men

PS each region was affected in lets say one month intervals and during the five coldest months of the year 1/2 of the U.S is conquered.
To successfully beat your opponent you must learn to think like your opponent.

n comes the SAVIORS with food and medicine, only catch is that you must go to federal work camps. say you do not believe they exhist? guess you havent been reading the Federal Regester which containe the executive orders including the one that states that the people will be placed in these work camps under federal supervision, including the right to split up families.

Emphasis mine.

Link? And I'm not talking about someones website that contains nothing but copied/pasted crap from someone elses website, but official sources. I'm not from MO, but you still gotta show me... You made 3 claims there that I dispute.

I'm sure we've all seen The List that people posted re: EOs that start at about 10990 to the low 11000's. I can't verify that infamous list either.

So, HERE is the Fed. Reg. EO website. Where is it?


[edit on 13/11/09 by PSUSA]

But suppose there is another army; a different kind of military.


And suppose there is no fanfare when they come and that their targets are selective.

And suppose this happens under the cover of chaos, so no one realizes it is happening.

Wont the swine flu be the catalyst for these events? If so, then we could see the population drop to about 40 people a square mile. (50%)

We can already see that this will be a global event and not just internally within the U.S. The UN troops will play a huge part and I'm sure that they have the necessary shots to avoid any casualties, similar to the German Army.

Also. Robots.

reply to post by PSUSA

Guess you do not have very much to dispute. Now that you can evidently find the federal register, spend some time reading in there instead of attempting to entice someone else to do the leg work for you. And while you are busy reading check into the United Stated Code.

slayerofmen
P.S. you arent one of keyboard commando types are you?

reply to post by slayerofmen


Nope.

I've looked thru that site. Many times.

None of what these people claim are there, are there. It's all BS, put out by people that are a little too paranoid. Or it is a copy/paste job from others that are too lazy to check things out for themselves.

P.S. you arent one of keyboard commando types are you?

Your little personal attack was rather silly. Especially considering your screen name. You slay men, huh? I'm skeered!




[edit on 14/11/09 by PSUSA]

Just off the top of my head. If it were me....
(not that I believe it will happen, but you never know)

* Create panic in which you tell the people that there will be patrols in order to 'contain' the situation. (terrorists, pandemic/plague, impending disaster, etc..) This way most people will see the action as one to provide help. Increase propaganda about how 'America needs your help' and get the people to patrol themselves. There are PLENTY of people with nothing in their lives that crave attention/power/recognition and would gladly rat out their fellow countrymen.

* Major cities would have troops stationed at all major thoroughfares. It doesn't take many to do this. This effectively places control over 99% of supplies going in/out of a city. They would do nothing at first to restrict movement, just be in place.

* Create teams to be ready to move into major power stations and assume control. There are not that many major hubs and controlling them will control most of the power for the country. Again, do nothing at first, just be ready to go.

* Rural areas would be left alone at first. Some farmland and dairy farms would be targeted for later confiscation once the major cities are under control.

Once things are in place you move in and lock down.

Doing just those things above could potentially control much of the country with relatively few military personnel.

I'm in NYC so I'll use that as an example.

Lincoln & Holland tunnels.
George Washington, Triborough, Verrazano, Whitestone, Throgs Neck, Brigdes.
A few minor bridges between the Bronx and Manhattan.

Cutting these off with only a few hundred troops would effectively control 9 or 10 million people. After a week or two when the food starts getting scarce most people will line up to be told what to do just for a can of soup.

Now you can fantasize about how you're going to storm the bridge and liberate it from armed soldiers, well just get over it. You would be dead. It would be very simple to defend against you.

Every city is different and requires it's own tactics but the rules are the same anywhere. You control what goes in and out and it doesn't matter what's going on inside. When food gets scarce people will fall into line. It doesn't take many troops to control a bridge or highway.

Of course people could sneak in or out but they will not be able to sneak supplies in for hundreds of thousands or millions of people so it really is irrelevant. The masses will crack and do as told. Once you start to punish the masses for the actions of a few 'rebels' they will turn on them and give them up.

Once the major cities are controlled you move in to strategic rural areas. It doesn't take many, just a few in the right places.

I believe less than the 3-5% would do anything to resist. America is divided and full of people who refer to other places as 'their country'. Most others, though talking very brave and tough on the internet, would cower in fear once the first shots were fired.