Healthcare is a Gateway Disaster.

If healthcare form passes, and we don't protest to stop it- we may as well get ready for the government to ride roughshod over ever right we have. Call the Healthcare plan the Gateway to Socialism because once the gov sees that they can take away our rights and tax us for it-they will get more aggressive in limiting our rights.

We need to come up with a plan here on ATS. If you know of a local or national protest against the Baucus Bill please post it. This may be our last chance to demonstrate that we will not have policy slammed down our throats. Next we will lose our gun rights, right to travel, GMA food will be forced on us, and every liberty will be eroded. We already have lost our privacy, our right to protest taxation, and the belief that our government actually gives a damn about us.

We are slaves. We own nothing. Our value is in our ability to provide services and pay taxes. We are manipulated, lied to and completely disrespected. And we do nothing but take it in fear of imprisonment or to protect our reputation from being considered a freak.

I will go anywhere to protest this bill. This is our last chance to be heard, before we are silenced and the rulers impose absolute control over our lives.

9/11 worked just as planned. We have lost our voice and our freedoms...in the name of protecting us from the enemy. We are the enemy and once our healthcare is socialized we will receive substandard care. We will die earlier because we won't have access to life saving technology. This is doomsday. What can we do?

[edit on 14-10-2009 by lostviking]

LOOK AT WHAT I JUST WROTE.


www.abovetopsecret.com...


This bill has to be stopped or we are doomed.

Originally posted by lostviking
If healthcare form passes, and we don't protest to stop it- we may as well get ready for the government to ride roughshod over ever right we have.

Can you elaborate on why you believe that to be the case?

Call the Healthcare plan the Gateway to Socialism because once the gov sees that they can take away our rights and tax us for it-they will get more aggressive in limiting our rights.

It is my understanding that the "public option", the item for which most people have been inspired to lose their minds, is no longer included. As such, how do you justify the statement you just made?

This may be our last chance to demonstrate that we will not have policy slammed down our throats.

Where were you when the cronies of a major financial institution took over the monetary polices of this country? (A far more serious issue)

Where were you when two inappropriate wars were initiated? (A far more costly issue)

Next we will lose our gun rights, right to travel, GMA food will be forced on us, and every liberty will be eroded.

Can you elaborate on your research that has brought you to such a provocative conclusion?

reply to post by mister.old.school


The Bacus Bill doesnt have a public Option, but the rest of the bills in the house and senate do.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
but the rest of the bills in the house and senate do.

And could you elaborate on why you believe the "public option" to be a problem?

All of you better just bend over and lube up because its coming. There's no stopping it at this point.

Strange times we're living in now. Despite all the protesting this thing is going to be rammed down our throats like it or not.

Originally posted by hecticskeptic
All of you better just bend over and lube up because its coming. There's no stopping it at this point.

Another "highly intelligent" contribution worthy of red-faced spittle-spewing newsertainment talking heads.

Does anyone have any actual data, facts, or otherwise real information to contribute to this discussion?

Originally posted by hecticskeptic
All of you better just bend over and lube up because its coming. There's no stopping it at this point.

Strange times we're living in now. Despite all the protesting this thing is going to be rammed down our throats like it or not.

yup, and all those people going bankrupt because of medical expenses, and children and adults that don't have any healthcare...THEY WILL GET HEALTHCARE!!! DAMN THOSE LIBERALS!!!

if they get cancer, and don't have the money to get treatment...let em' die!!
and all those homeless people that don't have jobs...let em die if they get sick.
that's the patriotic and christian thing to do...i got mine, so F U

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by hecticskeptic
All of you better just bend over and lube up because its coming. There's no stopping it at this point.

Another "highly intelligent" contribution worthy of red-faced spittle-spewing newsertainment talking heads.

Does anyone have any actual data, facts, or otherwise real information to contribute to this discussion?

you mean a conversation with facts??? c'mon, that not the way this is played. we need more hyperbolic and misleading information. we need scare tactics, we need the insurance companies to threaten to jack up our rates and drop sick people. we need more money going to insurance companies bottom line...this is america, for christs sake

Sometimes I feel that only a handful of people ,including myself, see the true benefit of the public option. If I can choose between the USPS and Fed-ex, A public university or a private one, why can't I have a choice in regards to public vs. private insurance? If goverment insurance sucks, the healthcare idustry will laugh all the way to the bank. Somehow, I think they are not laughing for a reason. The joke is finally on them.

*crosses fingers for public option*

*calls state Senator as well*


..and before the outrageous cost of universal healthcare, remember this: The FED "lost" about NINE TRILLION dollars of our money and will not account for it. Imagine how many Americans could be covered with that money...All of us. We have the money for healthcare, trust me. We just have to pry from the vice-like talons of the money grubbers in our government.

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by hecticskeptic
All of you better just bend over and lube up because its coming. There's no stopping it at this point.

Another "highly intelligent" contribution worthy of red-faced spittle-spewing newsertainment talking heads.

Does anyone have any actual data, facts, or otherwise real information to contribute to this discussion?

Clearly you're just another angry democrat spouting off . Why so serious? Here's a little actual data for you.

I don't think anyone will argue that the system is in need of reform. My problem is in giving the government more power and control over our lives.

Originally posted by hecticskeptic
Clearly you're just another angry democrat spouting off

. Why so serious? Here's a little actual data for you.

I have no party affiliation, not now, not ever. My only affiliation is to that of truth.

The link you provided appears to be nothing more than opinion poll results, which, when properly manipulated, can yield any data one desires.

My problem is in giving the government more power and control over our lives.

Can you express how, in this context of healthcare reform, "more power and control" would be imposed on our lives?

The government couldn't operate a can opener without consultants, lobbyists, special interest groups, tax increases, the FDA, FBI, CIA, DOD et al., and without treading on our rights (you must own a can opener, depreciate the asset, and always go clockwise or face prosecution). The public option will be expanded once the government finds that by denying care they can make more money and collect more taxes. If you think they give a damn about your health, your freedom or your quality of life you are sadly mistaken.

It comes down to freedom of choice and rights. Medicare and Medicaid are already public health options that DON'T work (first follow protocol by trying three cheaper, older drugs and when they fail we might pay for the latest efficient drug with fewer side effects). I don't care if there is a public option as long as I, as a tax payer, do not have to pay for it. And I will. No where in the Constitution does it say that health care is a right.

I am not a cold hearted soul, but government options fail. Look at the bailouts, the 9/11 investigation, the Cash for Clunkers, the DMV- all such efficient, honest systems to benefit the general public. Oh yeah...a flu shot with enough squalene to cause autoimmune disease- but at least we have a 50% less chance of getting the flu (give me a lifelong disease because I sure don't want to be sick a week).

Anyone who believes the government does anything in your best interest is naive. It is about money, power and control.

Maybe a better idea is allowing nonprofit organizations to operate health care. As a country we should explore options for those who are uninsured but it should never be forced upon those who don't want it, and we sure as hell shouldn't have to pay more tax for every governmental program forced upon us. I bet I bring home less than 40 percent of my annual paycheck by the time I pay for social security, income tax, food tax, product tax, property tax, licenses, and all the other fees to simply exist. Government has infiltrated every thing I do on a daily basis and I don't like it.

The healthcare bill will impact Doctor's earning capacity, drug and medical device technology, health insurance companies, and hospitals. It is unconstitutional and illegal to force someone to pay for a service or product they don't want. Will the government tell us next what kind of car we can drive, what kind of food we can consume, when we can marry, and how many kids we can have?

Nine years ago I would have said this could never happen, and now it is obvious that our voices aren't heard. The government can create huge bailouts for corporations, they can spy on our communications, they can prevent us from traveling without a driver's license, and they do so by intimidation, fear, licensing and laws.

It is time to take back our liberty and let TPTB know that we have rights, that we demand that the constitution is followed and perhaps make it a crime for law makers to make law that violates the constitution.


If we don't make a stand now, later it will be too late and anthing the government decides to do will be done. We are being worn down with so many assaults on our freedom, our choices and our livelihood.

On a closing note. Obama says that illegal immigrants won't be covered. Yeah, they won't be because he will make them legal citizens. How much more do we have to sacrifice, how much more do we have to pay? Why are the successful punished and forced to pay for the less successful or hardworking? I sacrificed a lot of my life to get where I am today, and everyone wants a piece of it. I have no right to say NO anymore. It makes me feel powerless and like I should just give up because I feel cheated. If you want socialized health care- move. If you want government to take care of you- move. That isn't what this country is about....or at least it didn't used to be.

reply to post by mister.old.school


Pg 22: A mandate for the Government to audit the books of all employers that self insure.

Pg 30: A Government committee that will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.

Pg 42: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You will have no choice!

Pg 50: HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise.

Pg 58: Government will have real-time access to an individual’s finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59: Government will have direct access to your bank accounts.

Pg 65: Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions and community organizations like ACORN.

PG 85: The Government will ration your Healthcare!

Pg 95: The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 85: Specifics of Benefit Levels for AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.

pg 124: No company can sue Government on price fixing and there can be no “judicial review” against Government Monopoly.

Pg 145: An Employer MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.

Pg 126: Employers MUST pay for healthcare for part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149: ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who does not provide public option pays 8 percent tax on all payroll.

pg 150: Businesses with payroll between $251k & $400k that don’t provide public option pay 2-6 percent tax on all payroll.

Pg 167 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5 percent of income.

Pg 170: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay).

Pg 195: Officers & employees of the Healthcare Administration (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans’ finances and personal records.

PG 203: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.

Pg 239: Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241: Doctors—doesn’t matter what specialty—will all be paid the same.

PG 253: Government sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgment, etc.—literally, the value of humans.

PG 272: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Pg 317-318: Government will mandate that hospitals cannot expand.

Pg 354: Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!

PG 425: Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations for seniors‚ end-of-life prodding.

Pg 425: Government will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

PG 425: Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in how to die.

PG 429: “Advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!

PG 430: The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

Pg 469: Community-Based Home Medical Services/Non-profit orgs. (ACORN Medical Services here?)

Pg 494-498: Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.

reply to post by hecticskeptic


You've done an excellent job of copying and pasting sensationalism from another (highly biased) source.

You were asked for your own opinions and actual facts. Instead, you did nothing.

Shall we examine these one at a time perhaps? Provide your rational and back-up data for this rather alarming point: "Pg 30: A Government committee that will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive. "

Originally posted by mister.old.school

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
but the rest of the bills in the house and senate do.

And could you elaborate on why you believe the "public option" to be a problem?

Maybe you can explain how $699 Billion dollars can be removed from Medicare funding and at the same time add 13 million + to the system without causing a major crisis within the system.

This financial shortcoming will fall on to the backs of the taxpayers and possible increases in existing health policies and retirement plans.

Reduced payments to doctors will thin their ranks and discourage others to go into other fields of medicine. My Doctor of Internal Medicine will retire rather than deal with a "Public Option" Many others plan to do the same.

If Medicare is broke or will be shortly, and with the possible "Public Option" looming ahead, what happens if there is not enough money and not enough doctors willing to handle 13 million more patients for less pay. Send them to Canada?

How do you explain the position for the "Public Option"? Spell it out for us, will ya. It really needs explaning!!!!!!!!



[edit on 14-10-2009 by Oldnslo]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


I do not feel it is the Federal Goverments place to get in the healthcare buisness, I have heard from the GAO that were broke, right now the goverment is adding more and more debt on to us; Somewhere along the way we as Americans forgot what it was like to be truly free with out sticking your hand out to big brother for help

Edit* What's this doing here?*

[edit on 15-10-2009 by IlmInsa]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

I do not feel it is the Federal Goverments place to get in the healthcare buisness, I have heard from the GAO that were broke, right now the goverment is adding more and more debt on to us; Somewhere along the way we as Americans forgot what it was like to be truly free with out sticking your hand out to big brother for help

That's been a well known fact, the US has been broken once it was back out of debt. The question everyone always asks but what we get in return is rheotirc is 'what do you propose should be done?'.

Rhetoric is rather boring, even the most heated partisan sociopath will get annoying in under 5 words. Once it's been rehashed why bother saying it again.

Originally posted by jimmyx

yup, and all those people going bankrupt because of medical expenses, and children and adults that don't have any healthcare...THEY WILL GET HEALTHCARE!!! DAMN THOSE LIBERALS!!!

if they get cancer, and don't have the money to get treatment...let em' die!!
and all those homeless people that don't have jobs...let em die if they get sick.
that's the patriotic and christian thing to do...i got mine, so F U

Why does our unwilingness to be FORCED to supply these people healthcare automatically mean that we are opposed because we think they should all just roll over and die?

Did it ever cross anybody's mind that those of us that are going to be now taxed to cover these people stand to lose everything that we have worked for and earned all of these years??

These are not good times for the rest of us either. Is it sad that there are so many falling ill and dying because of a lack of health insurance? Absolutely!

However, it was the government that failed these people from the start. Remember the whole Medicare and Medicaid program? Had both of those programs been managed correctly, and provided what they were actually intended to, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

People tend to think of those with health insurance as cruising along on our yachts and speeding down the highway in our brand new corvettes. It's not true.

What do you think is going to happen when this healthcare bill goes through? Do you have any idea that the foreclosure rate will inevitably rise? Why? Simply bvecause a HUGE number of Americans right now are only one paycheck away from foreclosure.

Many of us, my family included, if forced to pay as little as $200 more per month, will quickly fall behind on our mortgages.

I can only speak for myself, but we are living on only 61% of what we were taking home two years ago. Same job - same hours - less pay. On top of this, our expenses continue to go up for food, electricity, and property tax.

At one point, in February, we were only bringing in 47% of what we had made only a year before that.

We are not living high on the hog. We bought our current house 5 years ago -- at the peak of the real estate market. Since then, our house, due to no fault of our own, has depreciated 38%. Our initial 25% down payment is gone.

Perhaps it makes me a selfish individual. But I am not asking anyone else to pay my mortgage, cover my taxes, or provide food for us. I see no reason why I should stand to lose my house so that I can pay to fix the failings of the government once again.

Do you think being homeless is going to be good for our health? Well - it's not:

More Than One Third Of Homeowners In Foreclosure Suffer From Major Depression, Study Shows
ScienceDaily (Aug. 19, 2009) — The nation's home foreclosure epidemic may be taking its toll on Americans' health as well as their wallets. Nearly half of people studied while undergoing foreclosure reported depressive symptoms, and 37 percent met screening criteria for major depression, according to new University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine research published online this week in the American Journal of Public Health. Many also reported an inability to afford prescription drugs, and skipping meals. The authors say their findings should serve as a call for policy makers to tie health interventions into their response to the nation's ongoing housing crisis.
Link: www.sciencedaily.com...

This issue involves more than just allowing others to die because of a lack of health insurance. The ramifications of this healthcare reform are astounding when one begins to look at the people that will ultimately have to pay for them to live.

There are actual people that have to pay for this! This money is not faceless. For people that receive insurance through their employers -- and have no say on what policies are purchased in bulk -- their costs will go up as well. The employer's costs are going to rise -- many company benefits' packages will now be considered "luxury insurance coverage" -- and will then pass on these expenses to their employees.

This is a very slippery slope. One that has consequences beyond the initial benefits.

As a final note, at the very VERY least, with a pricetag of $829 billion, we still aren't covering every American. There is still going to be 3% -- roughly 9.2 million people -- that still WON'T have health insurance.

This is not a solution -- it is a band-aide. Unfortunately, this band-aide is more likely than not to cause even more 'bleeding'.