God and Lord God are two different gods

I decided to turn my posts into a thread of its own because this topic fascinates me...

Basically I definatley believe in the Extraterrestrial account of Earthlings' creation ( The Annunaki). I stunbled on this very question and it makes perfect sense that God and the Lord God are two different beings alltogether ( Enki and Enlil)...

Yes it is Lord Enlil ( aka the Lord God) that's always bringing chaos and evil to the mix...He's arrogant, ruthless and as he admits "a JEALOUS god" which would be too petty of a characteristic for an omnipotent being...

Enki ( aka God) was more kinder, caring, and sympathetic to the humans..
He was alos the lead scientist who carried out the cloning of mankind from Annunaki DNA with homo erectus DNA...

Take a look at the Ten Commandments for example ( to see a 'split personality)

-thou shalt not kill
-thou shalt not covet another's wife
-thou shalt not steal
etc

these sound like commandments of a more rationed minded, fair god.

-thou shalt not worship idols( money, jewels, etc)
-thou shalt not speak the Lord's ( aka Lord Enlil) name in vein
-thou shalt not worship any other gods before me (?????)

sounds like an arrogant, upity, ruthless, and sinister god

But how can an omnipotent being posses such petty, human -type characteristics ( jealous, anger, arrogance)?

And how does one interpret God and Lord God being one and the same? If you read Genesis or any other part of the bible for that matter, notice that whenever 'God' is mentioned, it's about peace and showing kindness to the humans.

And whenever 'Lord God' is mentioned, there is chaos, destruction, jealousy, and anger...

They are not one in the same...God is a term and not a proper name for one being....

Lord is a title...this was how the ancients deciphered the more 'ruling' type of God....

God and Lord God

one is leaning to his own understanding, which is not all that incorrect, for example gen 1:26 mentions God as more than one being. but its murder, not kill. There is nothing wrong with killing if its for the right reason, killing its ending somethings life thats not innocent. where as murder, they have done nothing wrong. but hell, we will never know for sure until some one gives proof. but your pulling bits and pieces from here and there, either you take the bible as it is without outside influences you think may or may not have happened. or you leave it be.... the bible says don't lean to your own understanding.

S+F for bump....

[edit on 13-10-2009 by clever024]

There is only one God mentioned in the Bible. Two different words are used to describe two different attributes of God, but it refers to a single God. These are the attributes of Justice and Mercy.

Most of what OP claims is based on relying on faulty translations of the Hebrew. Things are much clearer in the original Hebrew.

The Ten Commandments are mistranslated in the King James Version. It says Thou shalt not murder. Elsewhere, God commands people to kill - execute criminals, wage wars, etc.

As for Gen. 1:26, this does not refer to there being more than one god; it has to do with God speaking to the heavenly host.

You have to understand that religious people have had thousands of years to explain away all the inconsistencies and quirks you may think you've found. It is highly unlikely that any of us will be able to come up with a question or objection that hasn't already been raised and answered. Most of us are especially hampered by not being able to read the original languages, meaning we must rely on translations. Each translation is flawed in some way, and none is objective. They all pick and choose the words to fit into their particular religious views. This only serves to confuse the issue.

The deities OP mentioned are, I believe, Sumerian. Not Hebrew. Neither appears in the Bible.

Dear OP,
This (the reason there is confusion about the contrasting character of God) is because the current population at large has missed the concept of balance in paradoxes that exist and are explained by many scriptures, but primarily the Judeo-Christian theology. It is generally easy to explain, but I have found it more than difficult to clarify to people when they are so wrapped up in the current, terrible doctrines of our age.

Gods have expressed themselves in a two-fold way. At our current point in history, the J-C theology understands those to be Comfort (aka the Holy Spirit) which proceeds from the Father, and Christ (the Anointed) which proceeds from the Father. More specifically, Comfort proceeded from Christ which proceeded from the Spirit of the Lord, which was expressed alongside the Word of the Lord. Not so coincidentally, it was the Word which was being expressed directly in Christ. So then, the primary and first expressions of the Creators in this world were Order/Charity. In the times of old, they were known as the Spirit of God (mentioned above), the Word of God (mentioned above), and there are other names as well. One more specific pairing, commonly used by the Jews for being or not being under God, is Counsel and Understanding.
---
Deu 32:28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
Job 12:13 With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.
Pro 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
Pro 20:5 Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out.
---

So then, the paradox of balancing Order (justice, peace, design, etc) with Charity (giving, compassion, freedom, etc) is completed and perfected in what we understand to be "The Father," or Elohim. They are the fullness of existence, or also known as YHWH, etc.

Further...

If Elohim truly is the Fullness of Existence, the concept of Void is, in and of itself, nonsensical. While it is nonsensical, it is the paradox created and entered into by the Creators. So, for those who ask, "Can God create a rock He cannot lift?" The answer is both yes and no. Everything created Nothing in order to even exist in that. A paradox answered by a paradox and the best example is the contradiction of our own world and our own lives. Mankind is capable of seeing the Order of the stars and elements, but lacks Charity and have become Pride. Mankind is capable of being Charitable through tolerance and non-violent action, but lacks Order and has become Chaos.

Digressing, life grew up from the Void by the breath of the Creator. This is what we understand to be the universal Soul of life (Spirit through the Void). Also, life came down from above. This is what we understand to be the Spirit (Spirit from the Fullness). All have the same Soul, but not all have the same Spirit. More so, as our Flesh (Flesh from below) is all one which came from the Void, Christ (Flesh from above) came down from above and is One with those who are likewise given His Spirit.

Whether seen, or unseen, from the Void, or from the Fullness, the Creators have created, entered and mastered all things and this is exemplified in those (the Elect) who They are unified with in Faith and therefore eternity and in those (the carnal man) who They simply use as a "frame" to display the arts of OrderCharity.
---
Jhn 10:24-38
Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly. Joshua answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Joshua answered them, Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. Joshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.

Jhn 17:20-26
I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.
---

more...

[edit on 10/13/2009 by Dasher]

Something else that must be clarified is the understanding of Christ being inside of a person, and Comfort (commonly understood to be the Holy Spirit) being inside of a person. Those who have Christ and Comfort, they are the Children of God, and like Christ, will be glorified through eternal unity with Elohim.
---
Rom 8:18-30
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
---

Order without Charity is Pride.
Charity without Order is Chaos.
Pride and Chaos are Void.
OrderCharity are the Fullness of Existence.
Who are you a son of? Who/what will you be when you mature beyond this age?

Mar 12:30-31
And you shall give to the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: You shall give to your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

reply to post by chiron613


its all on interpretation, your right its not really about more than one God, It's about the Godhead.... something that isn't really taught, the trinity is taught, but the Godhead is misunderstood.... do i wish to share more? i wish i knew more to share.

reply to post by clever024


The Trinity is a bastardization of the concept of the Godhead and limits the understanding of how and in what God is manifested.

The Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Word Proceeds from the Father. If the Trinity is truly co-equal as Trinitarians would have you believe, who does the Father proceed from? If He does not proceed from anything, and it is the Spirit and Word who proceed from the Father only (which is the case), then we see a gradient of One being which also encompasses other manifestations such as, Spirit of the Lord/Word of the Lord, Comfort/Christ and also the individual believer (if you believe Christ's words).

While Father, Son, and Spirit (in terms of Trinitarian doctrine) are meant to make it easier to see the paradox of God, it drastically compartmentalizes the Creators and enables very unwise men to set up false idols based on false images of God. Christianity, at a very early point in it's history, became Paganized. For example, Christmas was never suggested as a holiday by scripture, but rather, it was initiated by the ruler of the Empire of the time, who is known as Constantine. Look him up, it's really sad and twisted. Christianity is almost nothing it claims to be, very similar to Judaism in the time of Christ and Spiritualists in the time of Abraham.

Look to Elohim and know them, the One true Gods.

You will go where you set your eyes.

Hi Chiron--

Actually there are several clan-gods mentioned in the canonical post Javneh 'old' Testament, upon which the 'new' testament is built.

Take a look at the book of Job for example which is written in 2 styles of paleo Hebrew, the 2nd far older than the first: (the introductory 'prose' chapters 1 & 2 written around BCE 300) used YHWH (i.e. Yahweh) for the divine name, whereas the poem itself beginning in chapter 3 and lasting until the next to last paragraph in the book, and written in Elamite Hebrew dialect) uses ELOAH for the divine name; some copies of the book change ELOAH to YHWH in the Whirlwind section as does the later Masoretic Pointed Text of AD 960.

So right there in a single book of the old testament you have TWO names for the god of the story. YHWH in the prose section is seen with angels and satan in a divine court; the earlier poem (from about 700 BCE) sees ELOAH acting alone without any angels or devils to assist.

In Genesis chapter 1:1 to 2:4a you have ELOHIM ('gods') which is the masculine plural of ELOAH being used: in 2:4b to 4:26 you have YHWH-ELOHIM (KJV : THE LORD-God) for the divine name. Again different names.

In Exodus chapter 3 you have El-Elyon (a Canaanite deity) which the writer (whoever hre was !) idenfies with YHWH, as well as other Canaanite deities (pre-Yahwistic) flourishing in the Levant e.g. El-Shaddai. These are all separate from YHWH the post Exilic (i.e. post 480BCE) clan god of Eretz Yisro'el.

So even though the later editors of the text in the old testament believed that all of these different gods were 'revealed' under different names, but were YHWH all along, that is just 'syncretism' the mixing of different gods into a single god...e.g. Amon and Ra who were separate in an earlier period in Egypt but later were merged into Amon-Ra, a single god.

Likewise, Hapi and Wusir (Apis and Osiris to use their Greek equivalents) were mixed into a single god Hapi-Wusir (=Gk. Serapis), who was very popular in Rome around the time of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (aka "Jeezzuzz') when Egyptian and other exotic/foreign cults were flowing into the city from all over the Empire.

The same process happened over time in Eretz-Yisro'el when the clan god-EL aka (in the KJV King james Version) "GOD" (the Cannanite local bull god) and YHWH aka (KJV) "THE LORD" (the warlike and demanding desert-mountain god of the Hapiru tent building nomads who later invaded Canaan around 1350 BC) were melded into YHWH-ELOHIM (The LORD God, e.g. in the book of Deuteronomy, written during the period of Baruch/Jeremiah around 560 BCE--same language and syntax, bad grammar, bad spelling, word order, vocabulary and Weltanschauung etc. -- so we know it was much later period than the worhip of EL 1000 years earlier).

Read Deuteronomy chapter 32:8-10 which quotes an earlier form of Hebrew (in a passage much older than the time of the writer of the present book of Deuteronomy) where the clan god of Canaan 'EL' is quite a separate clan god from 'YHWH' who later became the sole clan-god of post exilic Yisro'el (Hear o Yisroel, YHWH is our clan-god, YHWH alone !)

The fact the post Exilic Yahwists had to speak this phrase over and over every week proves that there was a Tendenz in Canaan in earlier times for numerous gods (e.g. an echo of this is: 'Let US make Adam in OUR Image, after OUR likenesses !' in Genesis chapter 1).

You'll have to read the text in paleo-Hebrew to get the jist of all this, however !

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Read Deuteronomy chapter 32:8-10 which quotes an earlier form of Hebrew (in a passage much older than the time of the writer of the present book of Deuteronomy) where the clan god of Canaan 'EL' is quite a separate clan god from 'YHWH' who later became the sole clan-god of post exilic Yisro'el (Hear o Yisroel, YHWH is our clan-god, YHWH alone !)

The fact the post Exilic Yahwists had to speak this phrase over and over every week proves that there was a Tendenz in Canaan in earlier times for numerous gods (e.g. an echo of this is: 'Let US make Adam in OUR Image, after OUR likenesses !' in Genesis chapter 1).

You'll have to read the text in paleo-Hebrew to get the jist of all this, however !

Your first paragraph is a major stretch in logic, the second is not even remotely close to proof, and regarding the third paragraph, language is limited in EVERY form in describing things that go beyond the abilities of this realm to display and observe and a specific language is not necessary to follow the most important concepts we have been given in scriptures. Furthermore, once those concepts are given to a person, the more and more difficult mysteries begin to open up regardless of which scriptures are read or what language they are written in.

Please consider this basic example, if I referred to God as "God," "Father," "They," "He," "One True God," "One True Gods," "Elohim," or "Dad," they are all right and none imply separation. For example, the whole point of the name YHWH was to teach many things about God. That God is infinite, indescribable in Their fullness, etc. Man's need to compartmentalize is the same Chaos/Pride that leads to other forms of idolatry (which is looking at a point on a gradient of greatness and calling it a god, meanwhile ignoring the forever increasing depths of the perfection of the God of Gods).

God is many, God is unified. It is more important for us to be looking to all of the things of the deep and secret places than it is for us to set up images of certain "landmarks" on those paths or even to have perfect understanding in this world.

Almost everything I have learned in life is about how little we can understand about our Creators, due to their perfection and our lives in a paradox. In essence, what is most perfect, real, reasonable, giving, and everlasting is impossible for us to fully grasp because we are so paradoxical, not the One true Father Themselves. When we see evil, disunity, etc, in God or religion, it is only the evil, disunity, etc, in ourselves that we are observing.

Please understand I mean for Order/Charity to be with you. I am not trying to harm you in any way.

Give to God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
Give to your neighbor as yourself.

If there is two gods one good and one evil where does that leave the devil since he didnt have any part in the commandments.?

Hi Dasher--

Maybe you are not fluent in paleo-Hebrew or have no working knowledge of the older Vorlage (Hebrew underlay) to the Greek LXX Seputaginta dated originally compiled c. BC 420, 3rd century BCE copies found amongst the fragments of the Dead Sea Scroll material, far earlier than the Masoretic (960 AD)?

Here is the text: you can see at a glance (this is clearer to those who can read paleo Hebrew especially) that in the ancient credo quoted in Deut 32:7-10, that YHWH is the son of EL, just as Ba'al was the son of EL: in other words, YHWH replaced Ba'al in the earlier preJudaean Ugaritic Canaanite literature:

Deut 32:7-10

Remember the days of old,
consider the years of many dorot (‘generations’):
ask your father, and he will show you:
Inquire of your elders and they will tell you.
8 When the EL-ELYON divided up the goyim as to their inheritance,
In the days when he separated the sons of Adam,
he set the bounds of the people
even according to the number of the ‘sons of EL’ (benei-EL)
(the later MT mis-reads: benei Yisrael (‘sons of Isra-el’)
9 And his people Yakkov fell to the the portion allotted to YHWH :
Even Israel, the lot of his inheritance.
10 When he found him , he dwelt in desert land,
and in the waste burning wilderness;
then he led him about, he instructed him,
he kept him as the apple of his eye.

This distinction between the TWO separate gods: EL / EL-Elyon and YHWH has been DELIBERATELY supressed in the later Masoretic text of 960 AD and in all the English translations of the MT which mask the actual language of the earlier Vorlage of the paleo-Hebrew found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (not generally discussed amongst the masses) to hide the fact that EL was the father of YHWH in an earlier stage of Israelite religion, preserved by the copyists of the Vorlage to the LXX (1400 years prior to the later MT Masoretic pointed text of Leningrad AD 960 which modern Jews and protestants read today...)

So we ARE in fact dealing with TWO clan gods here in the Hebrew text--whether you like it or not, there it is---staring you right in the face---and no amount of denial will change the fact----

And contrary to your unsupported claims, there is aboslutely NOTHING illogical about the fact that TWO gods are here mentioned in the earlier text copies, just even more proof of multiple gods being referenced in pre-Exilic Israel (although quoted by a post-Exilic writer, aka the Deuteronomist), although I can imagine your Shock and Awe at all of this being revealed to you for the first time as well as to any others on this thread like yourself who are not apparently very conversant with the material in paleoHebrew.

Have you thought about taking a Ancient Near Eastern history class to gain some more background on the Ugaritic literature found to be source material for much of the religious belief systems of the preExilic Israelites? Just a thought...

Gosh, I was hoping that I was making myself clear about idolatry in a quicker fashion. The problem is that I would be considered idolatrous as Christ was considered idolatrous. Within that problem lies another problem of people not understanding what idolatry really is. So in an unfortunately circular way, it will be very difficult to express why what your saying is right, but at the same time it does not justify actual alternate or subservient gods.

To briefly explain some issues... There is the issue of a God of single plurality moving into a realm which cannot exist (Void) and the resulting falling away of portions of plurality (don't misread this to be a condemnation of a specific name of god, nor mistake this for weakness on the part of the Creators, but rather, understand it to be sacrifice on a very deep level). There is the rising up of carnal animals who were increasing in spirituality and becoming "more" or "aware." There is the intermingling of these fallen spirits and rising animals in a paradoxical realm.

I am not disputing that there were gods. I am trying to point at the idea that there were permanent Gods and impermanent gods. For example, 1/3 of angels fell. This is a very abstract concept and it should be for the moment.

In the opposite direction, you have 2/3 of the world (carnal or animal-men or bad judges - which makes one not a judge at all) taken aside and destroyed, meanwhile, 1/3 of the world (the good judges who were once animals or "blind") and they are lifted from the Void through the dirt (this realm) and on to glory (Perfection). Please reference Zechariah 13. Another related scripture would help in this case and is also quoted by Christ to convey exactly what I am speaking about regarding the direction of Void to Fullness. Please refer to Psalm 82 (specifically v. 6) and John 10 (specifically v. 34). Please do not dwell on the opposite idea for very long. The resulting fall of spirits and their interaction with early man does not prove much about polytheism unless you ignore the greater understanding of the process of animals coming from Void, becoming good judges and then unified with the Good Judges and the process of God entering the Void in order to Create something amazing.

While I appreciate your knowledge, it is one of intellectual understanding and not spiritual. It is similar to knowing geometry really well, living as though that it is all that there is, and telling someone who understands that there is also trig, etc, that they are wrong for not agreeing with their better understanding of one portion of math. While I don't understand paleoHebrew , I understand who we are. We are the opposite of what you see as polytheism. We are the impermanent sons of god and the permanent Sons of God. And as Christ explains well, we are all One. My name is David. What is yours?

very good discussion, all. i was thinking i was going to have to come in here and regulate...but dasher and Sigismundus are doing a wonderful job of covering all the important points.

obtaining an understanding of the creation myth is, IMO, the most important work a man can undertake in his lifetime. it seems like such a simple story, but really its more like a loaded gun.


carry on, carry on....

To paint a more clear picture:

Say I was able to travel back in time, a bunch of thousands of years ago..onto a differnet planet than Earth that had very primitive civilization....With me I brought a cell phone, an Ipod, a laptop, a 9 mil, and modern medicine kits...

What do you think the ancients would consider me as?

A God.

Based on the mere fact that I am far more advanced in science, technology and medicine....

Now add that with the fact that because this was interplanetary space travel, the ancients saw me 'descend' from space, or as the ancients called space '"the heavens".

If a traveled with an entire crew, we all would be gods to them.

Genesis is the historical account of creation as told by ancient man....they did not use modern terminology as we do today like "space", "aliens", or "surgery"....instead they said, " Heaven" "angels" and "miracles".

Genesis describes the creation story of Earthlings as best toldby the writers of the bible. The lead scientist on the Earth Expedition stated in Gen 1:26 "Let US make mankind in OUR image, according to OUR likings." This was when it was decided by the (Annunaki race) beings that they would need slaves of Earth to do the gold mining.....remember "God saw that there was no man here to till the soil".

Then in the DNA splicing process (Annunkai + Homo Erectus) that ONE PARTICULAR 'god' made mankind in his image.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by ButterCookie]

As the scripture would have it, the course of man is a very complex dance of the impermanent and permanent which glorifies and pleases the permanent.

Please make sure to read my above posts and the scripture below with much thought and little response until the end of reading. Then please take the entire picture and make assessments. Narrowing in on one aspect too much often causes much division.

For those who don't want to read the whole of the quotes below, I highlighted the most important points after, but I prefer to always post the context of the scripture, within reason.

Rom 8:13-30
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.



Further, to emphasize;

Rom 9:15-24
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



Highlighting specifically;

Rom 8:18-20
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Rom 9:22-23
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,




So, to address the recent post about aliens...
I would agree with you if there had been at least something else in the scripture after the creation story that began to lead us to creatures being the creators. Rather, the scripture is declaring the Fullness (everlasting) and the Void (fleeting) and is given to us to understand where we are on the "bridge" between them.

You wisely see that men of old would fear what they don't understand as "gods," but you unwisely surmise what you don't understand as "aliens." The Creators are much higher than our imaginations, other creatures or fears.

Consider, the God of scripture is the perfection of Charity (giving) and Order (structure). Aliens would be just as dependent on carnal (physical) resources as we are. Maybe they would be more perfect than ourselves, but imperfect nonetheless.

The scripture is not one of fantasy. It is one of Permanence revealing itself to the Void, not needy aliens revealing themselves to needy earthlings.

[edit on 10/14/2009 by Dasher]