Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

They have made a gas piston modification for the M16/M4 for over 20 years but the government won't buy it.

yes it would help buy its only part of the problem.

People, it is NOT the weapon system and it is NOT the ammunition.

What this comes down to is extremely poor or nonexistent Fire Discipline! Pure and simple.

It also comes down to a lack of Command & Control by fireteam or squad leaders.

From the early introduction of fully automatic submachine guns, American soldiers have fired off whole mags with their weapon on automatic, hoping in hell to kill whoever they aimed at.

It does not work like that.

We all laugh out loud at some jundie or other in let's say Iraq or Somalia blazing away with his AK on full auto, whilst holding it over a wall.

Well, IMHO, firing a weapon on full auto is exactly the same! A couple of rounds on target and the rest of the ammo is converted from live rounds to empty cases!

Or how about firing a pistol - one handed, whilst holding it sideways. Another Hollywood favourite on the moment which conveniently forgets that with each round fired, the pistol points closer and closer to the flkoor or ground!

When we Brits got hold of our first fully automatic L85A1, we used to burn through barrels like there was no tomorrow.

Then the School of Infantry let it be known that fully automatic fire was only to be used when a Banzai charge was about to engulf your trench or foxhole; you were clearing an enemy trench or you were room clearing during OBUA.

What people fail to realise is that ammo burned unnecessarily in the heat of the moment is ammo needed for the next engagement.

We Brits perfer to double tap (or at least I did) but then again and without wishing to incur any wrath from PaddyInf, I did use a proper rifle, the FN SLR - 7.62mm. 'Nuff said!

If our American cousins had a half decent assault rifle like the L85A2 and learnt to shoot like we Brits do, then they would have few (if any) problems.

This is'nt the first time something like this has happened, for example the m4, which is used by many Special Ops units, can jam, or blow up in your face if taken to enviroments where it could be exposed to water, sand, and mud.

reply to post by fritz


Have you heard from Paddy Inf recently ? Hope he's well.

Originally posted by Jakes51

So it is not Soviet propaganda anymore, but a reality, that the M-16 is a piece of junk and has always been. Even in Iraq, it has been used to an extent, instead of the US issued weaponry. Just look at the video below and you will see. Scroll to time 2:13 and you will see what Kalashnikov is talking about in the flesh.

[edit on 11-10-2009 by Jakes51]

Sorry to be a bit late on this one - just noted the thread. If you look at the time frame you cite you may notice that the two guys firing the AKs from the window are actually Iraqis. The old pattern chock chip cam and the dodgy accents kind of give it away. The only American there is carrying an M4.

However you are right in that many Americans do carry AKs in Iraq, the principle reason being that many troops are only scaled for M9s (pistols) due to their trade/rank. Madness I know. Others just like to have a few pictures/vids with a fancy weapon to show the family when they get home. Therefore it is not uncommon for a septic squaddy to 'acquire' a long barreled weapon from a 'non-regulation' source.

During one of our recent Afghan tours some of the liason officers (notibly a certain ex-RSM who is now a Captain who got a MC for that particular tour) were well renowned for carrying AKs so as to 'fit in' with the locals, despite being very fond of our issue weapon.

the M4 does need replacing with something with a barrel of at least 16" (preferably 20"), and a decent gas piston set up. A 416 with a 20" barrel would probably do the business, as would any number of other weapons.

As an aside - What are the USMC reports about weapon failures/failure to stop targets etc? They don't use the M4 instead favouring the increased barrel length of the M16.

BTW Fritzy and Fang - I'm alive and well, thanks for asking. Still sitting on Christmas leave, picking my nose and scouring ATS. Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

our .223 doesn't have enough 'grunt' to reach out and touch someone with any degree of accuracy beyond 200 meters.

Depends on barrel length. The m16a2 is good to 800 meters and deadly accurate. The AK may work dirty but its the one not accurate.

lolol i would be so pissed off

Originally posted by tinarg
lolol i would be so pissed off

About what?

Originally posted by Rooky This is'nt the first time something like this has happened, for example the m4, which is used by many Special Ops units, can jam, or blow up in your face if taken to enviroments where it could be exposed to water, sand, and mud.

Better purchase some L85A2's then mate because according to your post, the M4 ain't good for any theatre of war, anywhere in the world!

reply to post by fritz

Ah the good old SA80 as it was called in my day, Great weapon IMO, Could take down a fig11 at 700 metres easy,
Cant comment these days as i have hung up me amplivox and SLR/LMG cleaning kit a long time ago LOL...
And yes i did wear putties, So no old sweat digs

Good Lord, how many old & bold do we have on here?!?!

At least one of you is fron a decent regiment, eh foxhound (though that does look suspiciously like a Rangers cap badge, so no-one's perfect)!

As far as buying SA80A2s is concerned, they'll be lucky. The weapon went out of manufacture about 20 years ago.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

I suppose employing the well-practiced 'if the weapon stops firing, throw it to the floor and stamp your feet' stoppage drill didn't helped.

Fire controle does seem to have played a part in the tragedy. Saying that, the stated rate taught to British troops firing on rapid is 30rds per minute. That means the 12 mags would be burned off in under 15 minutes if fired continuously, including reloads. The weapons should be able to handle that rate of fire, though it's bad discipline.

Automatic fire should only be used if a position is in the process of being overrun. Up until that point, a deliberate rate should be maintained to conserve ammunition, with rapid only being employed during the assault. To blat away on rapid for this amount of time shows poor drills. I've been in patrol bases that are being attacked by large numbers of well organised Taliban from multiple angles. It's up to the commanders to keep a grip of the lads to control the rate of fire.

Put it this way. The attack lasted 12 hours. This one lad (and he wasn't alone) squirted off 360rds (12 mags) in the first 30 minutes. To keep up that rate he would need almost 9000rds of ammo. That's 10 full cans of ammo per rifleman. Three times that if you're a SAW gunner.

I'm not saying he did (or could) keep up that rate, my point is fire discipline needs to be controlled or else weapons will fail and ammo will dry up.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by PaddyInf]

Originally posted by PaddyInf Good Lord, how many old & bold do we have on here?!?

I see the seaon of good will has finished early then, you young buggar!

'course in MY day, you couldn't fire that quickly because you'd either land up with a black eye or a dislocated shoulder.

See you often got that Paddy, especially when firing a propper rifle quickly!



[edit on 29-12-2009 by fritz]

Depends on barrel length. The m16a2 is good to 800 meters and deadly accurate. The AK may work dirty but its the one not accurate.

A slight difference in accuracy means little in terms of automatic rifles. I'd rather trust a rugged 7.62 rifle over the unreliable 5.56mm M4 anyday. M4 is really only effective in clean urban environments anyways.

Got my regimental colours for winning The Parachute cup, With the good old SMG, Does anyone still rate this weapon anymore ??
9mm rounds in deliberate mode is enough to stop any advancing enemy IMO . And to give it its place the LMG you cant miss with that bugger..
It seems to me the quality of the metal used in the barrels needs to be investigated,
Does the armourer not hold spare barrels ??..

Originally posted by fritz

'course in MY day, you couldn't fire that quickly because you'd either land up with a black eye or a dislocated shoulder.

Fritzy, in your day rapid fire meant 3 rounds a minute in all weather

See you often got that Paddy, especially when firing a propper rifle quickly!

What, like the Baker?

reply to post by PaddyInf[/url]

Swift and Bold I ain't mate!

Anyway, I seriously doubt if I can afford the £12,500 for a genuine Baker Rifle. Even an original sabre bayonet costs between £5 and £7,500.

We have a replica in our Salamanca Club but whoever made it, cocked up! It's got a smoothbore barrel.

In my day Paddy old friend, we had to hack the enemy to pieces before we could get our arrows back!