Aliens must think American human culture is void of any value

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen

Originally posted by Just Cause

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla
They have never heard the insightful words of people like Tupac Shakur and Nas. KRS-One, T.I., there are many greats. They will never know that there is depth to this. They judge without knowing what they judge.

They've never listened to Talib Kweli or Mos Def. I doubt they've listened to Jay-Z. And I doubt they had no knowledge of who Kanye West is outside of the MTV Music Awards.

Though fictitious, this is is the perfect embodyment of what advertised and mass-broadcasted airplayed hip-hop is viewed as by mainstream media: www.myspace.com...

and before you say I am generalizing or judging, flip on MTV for a weekend and catalog everything played, do the same for the top 10 radio stations in the nation. I agree with pretty much all you are saying about insightful words from a certain handful of artists you mentioned but the majority of hip-hop TODAY(not decades past) nearing disclosure in 2009-2010 you must admit is crap or wherever you might categorize people like Britney, Lil' Wayne, Miley and Flo Rida. Explain how their 80-90% of the marketshare of the airwaves their sending garbage signals out into the heavens helps to make a case for humans on a grand world-scale?

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Just Cause]

So let me get this right. You're bashing a whole genre of music because the songs that make it mainstream are rubbish? Which I'm sure most hip-hop fans would concede(mainstream being rubbish).

Unfortunately, it is only that rubbish and majority mainstream that counts and represents this planet right now at such a pivotal point in history. As a standard of any intelligent life examination based on the way human scientists might research a species of anything, they look first at the mean or average of what that species might do and how they interact as a basis of cataloging them.

How is that any different than me rubbishing say the entire rock/metal genres because Avril Lavigne and Linkin Park are commercial pish?

It is no different, all you mention is also garbage in my mind but hip-hop has more of it on WIDE DISPLAY

Hip Hop like every other genre of music is an art form. And there's good art and bad art. Because the Hip Hop you see on some commercial tv station is garbage proves nothing other than that most people lack taste.

Again, it is still representative of what most of the current culture likes and can be interpretted as a staple of human life. Yes, the garbage of it, not whatever you might consider the insightful part of hippo-hop. The Kanye part of it blasted out there toward the cosmos is most of what is out there to listen to. You really think an advanced race of aliens is going to delve into some obscure sub-culture somewhere in Australia and IGNORE the other 90% of crap and state, "this intelligent and insightful broadcast that covers 2% of what humans broadcast must represent this planet"

Most good Hip Hop is underground, most good Rock is underground, most good Jazz is underground, most good music period is underground.

this point is moot. no one is arguing that. and because its underground, it will not matter when the time comes.

If an Alien needed greater understanding of humanity, I'd implore them to listen to some underground Hip Hop artists. They'd learn much more of value from it than they would any other genre, that's without question.

You can implore all you want but they need to listen to the masses and right now in this point in time, the masses like the ignorant bitchez and bling.

Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla

snip

You said: " The notion that hip-hop causes crime or violence is completely false. Those problems are problems formed of poverty and depression; if hip-hop never existed these problems would still be there."

These problems were here before, during, and after hip-hop. The added problem is the awful, talentless "music." Hip-hop is an insult to the standard music industry. But, everyone has a right to their taste. It's just not mine.

Well, what hip hop have you listened to? And what other types of things are you open to? Because if you are not an open minded persona nd you come from a wildly different time and perspective, it may just be out of your grasp to appriciate.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by BaronVonGodzilla]

Without naming names as the selection of artists is too numerous, I give everything an opportunity since I don't reject anything outright. My reference is my age, 71, having been exposed to everything from latin music until I was 17 at which time I was on my own after I joined the Air Force. It started with country - Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells, Chet Atkins, etc. Then Top 40 radio, classical music, big band, west coast jazz, IOW, eclecticity. So when I say that I don't care for hip-hop/rap it's based strictly on my desire to hear harmonious music whether vocal or instrumental. Of course, there is a hit in every one of us, but hip-hop/rap will never approach the beauty of THE BEATLES, my music standard. Hip-hop/rap runs counter.

BUT, one of my favorite tunes is "WHITE LINES" by Grandmaster Flash And The Furious Five. Also, "WORLD DESTRUCTION" by Bambaataa, ex-Sex Pistol/Public Image Ltd. leader John Lydon, and producer/bassist Bill Laswell.

Originally posted by Just Cause

Originally posted by KingAmongstMen

Originally posted by Just Cause

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex

Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla
They have never heard the insightful words of people like Tupac Shakur and Nas. KRS-One, T.I., there are many greats. They will never know that there is depth to this. They judge without knowing what they judge.

They've never listened to Talib Kweli or Mos Def. I doubt they've listened to Jay-Z. And I doubt they had no knowledge of who Kanye West is outside of the MTV Music Awards.

Though fictitious, this is is the perfect embodyment of what advertised and mass-broadcasted airplayed hip-hop is viewed as by mainstream media: www.myspace.com...

and before you say I am generalizing or judging, flip on MTV for a weekend and catalog everything played, do the same for the top 10 radio stations in the nation. I agree with pretty much all you are saying about insightful words from a certain handful of artists you mentioned but the majority of hip-hop TODAY(not decades past) nearing disclosure in 2009-2010 you must admit is crap or wherever you might categorize people like Britney, Lil' Wayne, Miley and Flo Rida. Explain how their 80-90% of the marketshare of the airwaves their sending garbage signals out into the heavens helps to make a case for humans on a grand world-scale?

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Just Cause]

So let me get this right. You're bashing a whole genre of music because the songs that make it mainstream are rubbish? Which I'm sure most hip-hop fans would concede(mainstream being rubbish).

Unfortunately, it is only that rubbish and majority mainstream that counts and represents this planet right now at such a pivotal point in history. As a standard of any intelligent life examination based on the way human scientists might research a species of anything, they look first at the mean or average of what that species might do and how they interact as a basis of cataloging them.

How is that any different than me rubbishing say the entire rock/metal genres because Avril Lavigne and Linkin Park are commercial pish?

It is no different, all you mention is also garbage in my mind but hip-hop has more of it on WIDE DISPLAY

Hip Hop like every other genre of music is an art form. And there's good art and bad art. Because the Hip Hop you see on some commercial tv station is garbage proves nothing other than that most people lack taste.

Again, it is still representative of what most of the current culture likes and can be interpretted as a staple of human life. Yes, the garbage of it, not whatever you might consider the insightful part of hippo-hop. The Kanye part of it blasted out there toward the cosmos is most of what is out there to listen to. You really think an advanced race of aliens is going to delve into some obscure sub-culture somewhere in Australia and IGNORE the other 90% of crap and state, "this intelligent and insightful broadcast that covers 2% of what humans broadcast must represent this planet"

Most good Hip Hop is underground, most good Rock is underground, most good Jazz is underground, most good music period is underground.

this point is moot. no one is arguing that. and because its underground, it will not matter when the time comes.

If an Alien needed greater understanding of humanity, I'd implore them to listen to some underground Hip Hop artists. They'd learn much more of value from it than they would any other genre, that's without question.

You can implore all you want but they need to listen to the masses and right now in this point in time, the masses like the ignorant bitchez and bling.

That's all well and good but that isn't what you've stated through the rest of the thread, is it.

You've made numerous attacks on the Hip Hop genre itself. What I'm trying to do to you is explain that your attacks are misplaced. Hip Hop is not the problem.

There was crappy commercial music being sold to the masses before Hip Hop, and it will continue long after Hip Hop loses its perceived coolness amongst the masses.

To simplify what I'm saying, you basically attacked Hip Hop as a whole. And that's ridiculous.

Not liking a genre as I mentioned is one thing, but It's pretty obvious you have some irrational and I'd go as far as saying unwarranted hatred for the genre, based on nothing but a dislike for commercial music, and probably a dislike for the hip kids at school who listen to Lil Wayne then steal your school lunch.

Understand? It's irrational and I'm sure the aliens wouldn't have much time for such irrationality and illogical disdain.

reply to post by KingAmongstMen


im pretty sure they dont know much about the music genre and think it to be just one whole thing.

Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
They've never listened to Talib Kweli or Mos Def. I doubt they've listened to Jay-Z. And I doubt they had no knowledge of who Kanye West is outside of the MTV Music Awards.

Well, you're right. There are many people who are just amazing, insightful, intelligent, soulful people, that can really reach people and put ideas in their hearts. But I don't think some people would care about that even if they knew it to be true.

It's easy to overlook the gold if all you're looking for is garbage. And I think that is what is going on here. I have yet to see anyone specifically site what they listened to, how they decided to listen to that, and why they came away feeling like it was something awful. I just see generalities and broad brushes painting a hell of alot of people who have been involved in hip hop over a long time now.

As for Kanye, I respected him around the time of Through The Wire, and bought a few of his records, but lately he is just so over the top I barely know what to think of him. He's gone out of his way to make an ass of himself though, which, if people look back, is something alot of really famous people once did. Madonna or Drew Barrymore on Letterman, for example.

The truth is, these are the types of disconnects that make our nation more about 50 states than about 1 country. We fight about dumb stuff, and our arguments, which don't matter anyway, drive a wedge between us and make us forget how similar we all really are.

You can look at ANY genre of music, and find TERRIBLE, boring, disgusting, outrageous, ignorant music, and probably a variety of other descriptions too.

This thread just singles out one genre of music, broadly accuses it of being entirely without value, and in a backhanded sort of way, implies that anyone who is associated with it in any way, even just as a fan listening, is a bad person, who America could be ashamed of.

That's just ignorance, plain and simple.

If we could get over stuff like that, and just agree to disagree, we'd be alot better off. But instead we make these threads that just divide us.

We're now so clearly divided, and yet we'll all be surprised when we're conquered.

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

Originally posted by BaronVonGodzilla

snip

You said: " The notion that hip-hop causes crime or violence is completely false. Those problems are problems formed of poverty and depression; if hip-hop never existed these problems would still be there."

These problems were here before, during, and after hip-hop. The added problem is the awful, talentless "music." Hip-hop is an insult to the standard music industry. But, everyone has a right to their taste. It's just not mine.

Well, what hip hop have you listened to? And what other types of things are you open to? Because if you are not an open minded persona nd you come from a wildly different time and perspective, it may just be out of your grasp to appriciate.

[edit on 12-10-2009 by BaronVonGodzilla]

Without naming names as the selection of artists is too numerous, I give everything an opportunity since I don't reject anything outright. My reference is my age, 71, having been exposed to everything from latin music until I was 17 at which time I was on my own after I joined the Air Force. It started with country - Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells, Chet Atkins, etc. Then Top 40 radio, classical music, big band, west coast jazz, IOW, eclecticity. So when I say that I don't care for hip-hop/rap it's based strictly on my desire to hear harmonious music whether vocal or instrumental. Of course, there is a hit in every one of us, but hip-hop/rap will never approach the beauty of THE BEATLES, my music standard. Hip-hop/rap runs counter.

BUT, one of my favorite tunes is "WHITE LINES" by Grandmaster Flash And The Furious Five. Also, "WORLD DESTRUCTION" by Bambaataa, ex-Sex Pistol/Public Image Ltd. leader John Lydon, and producer/bassist Bill Laswell.



Pretty high standard you have there. There really isn't much coming close to The Beatles, period.

I can understand how you'd dislike Hip Hop, especially todays, given the tracks you named. Both artists are from an era where everthing was very cartoony and much more emphasis was placed on the 'funk' if you will.

I'd still suggest trying to give todays artists credits where they're due though. Regardless of whether they're not to your taste, as musicians and wordsmiths theres plenty of artists as good and better than Grandmaster Flash and Bambaataa. The style has changed, but rappers today are generally more talented than in the 80's. With little doubt. And to suggest the genre is some sort of blight or anchor on the rest of the music industry is quite a reach. Given you can highlight the exact same trash in every other genre. And it's just as abundant.

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
Without naming names as the selection of artists is too numerous, I give everything an opportunity since I don't reject anything outright. My reference is my age, 71, having been exposed to everything from latin music until I was 17 at which time I was on my own after I joined the Air Force. It started with country - Johnny Cash, Kitty Wells, Chet Atkins, etc. Then Top 40 radio, classical music, big band, west coast jazz, IOW, eclecticity. So when I say that I don't care for hip-hop/rap it's based strictly on my desire to hear harmonious music whether vocal or instrumental. Of course, there is a hit in every one of us, but hip-hop/rap will never approach the beauty of THE BEATLES, my music standard. Hip-hop/rap runs counter.

BUT, one of my favorite tunes is "WHITE LINES" by Grandmaster Flash And The Furious Five. Also, "WORLD DESTRUCTION" by Bambaataa, ex-Sex Pistol/Public Image Ltd. leader John Lydon, and producer/bassist Bill Laswell.

Well, maybe it will shock you to learn that I have a huge musical taste and I am a big fan of alot of the same people and styles that you are.

I probably know 30 Johnny Cash songs by heart word for word, obscure ones at that, some of them. I'm a fan of classic country myself as well.

Maybe it's that these generations are just too far apart. What some people believe in and think is right may be different to someone who is born into something else.

I can tell you that as long as I have been alive, everyone around me seems hopelessly lost. Everyone is under a mountain of debt and stress. Maybe it's because I am used to being poor and having very little, but sometimes I get real inspiration from music, hip hop included.

Now that blasphemy is, I'm not a fan of the Beatles, and I just, I'm familiar with their songs like everyone is, but it just doesn't speak to me. I don't relate to it. And hopefully that is a bit shocking to you, to find someone doesn't like what you find to be great. I am not doing this falsely or for effect; I really honestly feel that way.

To me it doesn't speak to me, it doesn't come from where I come from.

Hip hop, well, that is to say, good hip hop, is about knowledge.

It may not musically fit your taste (or whoever's taste I mean, not just specifically you) but that certainly does not mean it is without value.

Many people have different perspectives about life and how to life it.

I cannot defend hip hop in alot of categories, and trust me when I say, I hate the mainstream hip hop as much as you do, and agree wholeheartedly that the MAINSTREAM hip hop industry is terrible. In fact I think 50% of hip hop fans would agree with you. But that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of what hip hop is, and what great, amazing music has come of it.

There are many intelligent people who can teach alot in their lyrics.

As for melodious or harmonious, there are many songs which are that. I would suggest, if you could try with an open mind, to really try hard to ignore the bad things he says and encourages, but just find the wisdom he shares beyond his frustrations with life and misguided ideas, Tupac Shakur is a very good place to start. He has alot of melodious songs, with alot of background music.

It's hard to encourage though, he had some very racist opinions, and was very outspoken about alot of bad things in life. He advocated alot of things that many people will never be able to look beyond.

Yet if you can dig through the emotional frustration, and all the garbage that goes with it in his songs, you will find he was a brilliant man, who the world is lesser for having lost.

I think someday he would have been a great leader in this nation, he was true and honest and brave and tough and everything America stands for. But he also would never take any sh*t from anyone, never back down from anything, never stop fighting until the last breath. And he was a cocky person. Mos Def or Common or someone is a better role model, but if you can handle real yet possibly upsetting or disturbing stuff, there is a deep well of wisdom, and a sense of bravery you can get from him.

Anyway, to say that something people feel so passionate about is without value is just ignorant.

Edit: This is a response to Skeptical Ed, KingAmongstMen, and whoever else.. I got a bit confused and wrote it in a weird way so, I don't know, I'm not great at putting thoughts together sometimes.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by BaronVonGodzilla]