Gary McKinnon suicidal following U.S. bullying

reply to post by SkEpTiCiSM

Although this is probably a slightly outlandish statement - he does have no evidence of what he saw. However, given the US government's reaction to the whole thing, you don't need a PhD to work out what he probably did stumble upon.

And this is what makes the whole thing a very not funny joke,

"He broke into our safe and should be hung, but it's not true what he says he found in our safe (whose door was left open) that's a lie he didn't see anything but we'll hang him for what he didn't see"

Originally posted by Mogget

Let's keep our heads when dealing with this person! He committed a crime and he has to pay for it. The dealing between nations has nothing to do with the basic crime. He is a criminal.

If this had been the other way around (ie. if a US citizen had hacked the computers in a British installation), would the US government allow that person to be shipped over to Britain to face trial?

This is what is lost on some Americans: of course the US government wouldn't allow it. Just look at what happens in 'friendly fire' investigations. The drawbridge gets raised and the actual reality of this 'special relationship' is revealed for all to see.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by SkEpTiCiSM

 

Although this is probably a slightly outlandish statement - he does have no evidence of what he saw. However, given the US government's reaction to the whole thing, you don't need a PhD to work out what he probably did stumble upon.

And this is what makes the whole thing a very not funny joke,

"He broke into our safe and should be hung, but it's not true what he says he found in our safe (whose door was left open) that's a lie he didn't see anything but we'll hang him for what he didn't see"

Precisely. To quote Scooby-Doo, "Ruh oh!". To be honest, if what he says he true (and personally, I do think it is. The lack of evidence on his part can be explained by the fact he has admitted several times that he was under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol at the time that this was happening - and given the government's reaction we can assume he's not faking), if this was to ever be disclosed to us by the government, and if McKinnon was extradited, jailed and thus resulting in his probable suicide, the US would have alot to answer for.

This information (if they possess it - which I can say I'm 90% sure they do) should've been disclosed a long time ago. Not disclosing this info causes the people of the world to "assume" and "conspire" about what the governments and institutions *might* (read: probably) possess. The longer they keep it, the more egg they have on their face (and in this case, potentially blood on their hands, if they haven't already popped a cap in someone over the whole thing).

Originally posted by TheNetherlands

...Is it really a crime?

...Lets look at the facts.

..Its just so #ing hilarious... Actually its kinda sad. What a sad sad country!

I find it equally hilarious that you do not even know the facts of the case and are so quick to judge based on a lack of information.

Originally posted by TheNetherlands

Is it really a crime?

YES.

(Wiki) The US authorities claim he deleted critical files from operating systems, which shut down the US Army’s Military District of Washington network of 2,000 computers for 24 hours, as well as deleting US Navy Weapons logs, rendering a naval base's network of 300 computers inoperable after the September 11th terrorist attacks

Originally posted by TheNetherlands
...Lets look at the facts.

Can I ask you something? You are so smug in your responses but do you have any reason to be? Aside from a poor understanding of facts and probably an unhealthy hatred of the US... Do you go through life looking at the surface of things without learning the "facts" and making decisions on that lack of information? because if you do, that my friend.. is the real "sad" part of this.

Originally posted by TheNetherlands
NASA is not a government agency, it is paid for by the people, not by the government. So the people have the right to know about everything do do, did, plan to do and found out. If they keep secrets than it is your right to get it out in the open. Its a public organisation, not a governmental agency, so dont #ing cry when you keep secrets and the public is trying to get it out in the open. Its our right!

You are just chock full of ignorance on so many levels and it is quite comical that you aren't even aware of your errors here.

1. NASA IS a United States government agency.

(Wiki) The National Aeronautics and Space Administration is an agency of the United States government, responsible for the nation's public space program.

2. It is a crime to break into or circumvent the security of publically funded organizations and agencies in almost every country in the world.

Publically funded doesn't mean "Hack Me".
Publically funded does not mean Joe Blow can come in and rifle through the files anytime he or she wants.
(electronically OR in person)

3. You also said "It's our right" but I suspect you are not American.
(tell me if I am wrong here) If you are not, you have NO access to any US public agencies, organizations, etc...

In this case Gary McKinnon IS NOT AN AMERICAN, so even if your INCORRECT and ridiculously wrong assertion held true that it's a public agency and therefore there is no crime as the public is privvy to all data...

HE ISN'T AMERICAN. Again... Gary McKinnon ISN'T AMERICAN.

Non Americans have no valid or legal access to US publically funded agencies, organizations or any data they handle, produce or store. (again assuming the ridiculous assertion that it's OK to hack publically funded agencies) The FOIA does not apply to Non-Citizens.

Again, putting aside reality and pretending it is legal to hack a PUBLIC agency.. You seem to either not know, or are purposefully leaving it out, that it isn't just NASA he is claimed to have hacked, you forget to include the Pentagon also, that is most certainly a United States government MILITARY agency.

~~

The problem is that people like you don't see a crime here, and it is simply because you are in his corner. Kind of like politics where it's OK for your side to lie and be hypocrites as long as they are on your side.

That's just another form of ignorance. Ignoring all facts and focusing soley on your personal injustice.

He was hacking for "ET" files, so it's all OK? No criime here, move along.

What if he was hacking for schematics of the USS Clinton to find it's weak spots? Would it be OK then? Or how about if he were simply hacking to browse the ICBM Launch facilities data files?

I guess it's all relative right?
Hacking for "ET" is OK then right?

Hardly anyone here even considers the possibility that he is full of crap and came up with an innocuous excuse to gain sympathies from people exactly like you.. the non fact checkers who hold ignorance rallies.

He should be prosecuted, if he is innocent, then he can troll ATS like everyone else, if not, may he get bed sores in club fed.




This planet is getting dumber by the minute.

reply to post by gormly

The problem is that people like you don't see a crime here, and it is simply because you are in his corner. Kind of like politics where it's OK for your side to lie and be hypocrites as long as they are on your side.

At the end of the day if a crime has been committed then charges along with evidence should be brought.

The big complicator is that extradition is required, sorry buddy no can do, extraditing to nations that indulge in torture is a no no.

Originally posted by gormly
The FOIA does not apply to Non-Citizens.

FOIA Basics

What is the FOIA?
Enacted in 1966, The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is a federal law that establishes the public's right to obtain information from federal government agencies. The FOIA is codified at 5 U.S.C. Section 552. "Any person" can file a FOIA request, including U.S. citizens, foreign nationals, organizations, associations, and universities. (source)

You are just chock full of ignorance on so many levels and it is quite comical that you aren't even aware of your errors here.

I applaud your fervent search for facts and in light of that I thought you should be aware of your error. You're welcome

reply to post by converge


In the end, I do agree with you, my friend.

The problem is, and what real bothers me, is the impact that this has in this community. This guy will end being a joke, and we (the ones who like to take ufology seriously, being a believer or skeptic) are the ones who will pay the price for this.

reply to post by Malcram

There are so many reasons why this case should get attention and be of real concern to us all.

Oh really?

Do you know how many times, I see people in the airports being arrested and put to jail and not being citizens from that country? I make a lot of legs to Amsterdam, and I even got one dopped guy on my plane once.

People look like rain drops falling for crimes in foreign countries. And believe me, some of them are innocent. Sometimes, it's even the guys who put the bags in the plane who put the drugs in there.

Imagine that you are simply travelling, and someone puts drugs on your bag, and you get caught. Not a very fair thing, isn't it? And guess what, if you are in your country, and you are accused, you'll be extradicted to where you commited the crime. Being american, british, or whatever...

If you are concerned about innocent people being through a lot, start reading about this drugs cases, and about people who get extradiction for something that they didn't do.

THIS guy is a joke, has a face of a lunatic and ACTS like a lunatic. Provably, he only has a good lawyer who is causing all this talk.

Not so. I'm infinitely more interested in the immorality and inhumanity of this case than it's connection with UFO's.

Again, I think you're pointing the wrong direction. If your motives for this thread are those, then you have a lot more cases, and even worst, for you to fight and debate for.

Make no mistake. This guy gets his publicity because of the word "UFO". Many hackers have been caught and got the same treatment. Why aren't we discussing them?

No, there is far more to this case. You just don't seem to accept it when people point it out.

No, it's the other way around. You are the one who isn't accepting the reality of this case.

This is about UFO's and "hacking the system". Because if you take that out, you have a criminal that was extradicted so he could have his punishment.

Again, do you really how many times this happens around the world every weak?

If it was like you are saying it is, we would be debating a lot more cases.

reply to post by Mogget


Yes.

And it happens a lot more than what people think.

...and many times, the embassy does nothing to help, or can't.

[edit on 13/10/09 by Tifozi]

[edit on 13/10/09 by Tifozi]

Im but a simple person by nature with a simple protocol to follow.

You were not invited

You were not welcomed

You will need to pay the price.




People often think were as dumb as the other 80%, there are those of us who make sure back doors are kept unlocked with our knowledge for purposes like the individual involved.

Enjoy your stay

Originally posted by Tifozi
In the end, I do agree with you, my friend.

The problem is, and what real bothers me, is the impact that this has in this community. This guy will end being a joke, and we (the ones who like to take ufology seriously, being a believer or skeptic) are the ones who will pay the price for this.

Yeah, but I have bad news for you Tifozi, if you worry about every single individual or case that sheds negatively on serious UFO research and discussion, you'll never get around to actually address or focus on the positives. There's plenty other cases that reflect even worse on the UFO field than McKinnon's. And many from people who call themselves researchers and are actually, in some shape or form, involved in the field. Those to me are much more worrying.

And contrary to what you perhaps believe, I think this is a marginal case and people aren't wasting that much time and effort with it. If you look at the commentary from most serious UFO researchers on this they don't give any or much credence to McKinnon's claims of his findings, or don't even talk about the case at all.

Also, if you look at most of what the mainstream media is saying, especially the British media, it's almost entirely devoted to the UK-US agreements and legal issues and civil rights angle.

And that's my interest in this case as well -- the legal and civil rights issues. If McKinnon admitted to having seen secret information about the war in Iraq, wiretapping abuses or whatever, I'd be equally interested and raising the same points that I have.

Originally posted by Tifozi

Oh really?

Yep, really.

Do you know how many times, I see people in the airports being arrested and put to jail and not being citizens from that country? .... And guess what, if you are in your country, and you are accused, you'll be extradicted to where you commited the crime. Being american, british, or whatever.

This case isn't about drugs or a crime committed on the soil of another country so your comments here aren't really relevant. It's about someone in his own country looking for illegally and immorally suppressed info on UFO's and clean energy via the internet and using computers that weren't password protected to gain access to that information. His extradition is illegal (IMO, we'll see what the ECHR says) and is based on lies, manipulation and abuse of new 'ant-terror' laws by the U.S. (IMO) ad the threatened punishment does not fit the crime.

If you are concerned about innocent people being through a lot, start reading about this drugs cases, and about people who get extradiction for something that they didn't do.

LIsten, I'll look into and talk about whatever case I want to. There is a gross injustice here with McKinnon's case. You argument seems to be 'well there are lots of injustices so who cares?'. Well, I do. And I care about all such cases that come to my attention.

THIS guy is a joke, has a face of a lunatic and ACTS like a lunatic

.

LOL. Thanks for that. Perhaps you should conduct the US prosecution case? I'm sure it's going to be pitched at about that level. BTW, if he's a 'lunatic' then shouldn't he get off with a plea of insanity?

Again, I think you're pointing the wrong direction. If your motives for this thread are those, then you have a lot more cases, and even worst, for you to fight and debate for....

Well, the UFO forum wouldn't be the right place to discuss them, would it? And what are you, the psychic motive detective? lol. Stick to arguing the case rather than complaining that it is being discussed or pretending to know everybody's motives for discussing it.

Originally posted by tristar
Im but a simple person by nature with a simple protocol to follow.

You were not invited

You were not welcomed

You will need to pay the price.




People often think were as dumb as the other 80%, there are those of us who make sure back doors are kept unlocked with our knowledge for purposes like the individual involved.

Enjoy your stay

So don't complain when US get butchered in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Tut, tut, hypocrite.

reply to post by Jinni


I am not complaining,


Just make sure you know who to welcome when the tables are turned upside down.

Originally posted by Tifozi
THIS guy is a joke, has a face of a lunatic and ACTS like a lunatic.

That settles it! Look at his face! I mean, come on, look at his face. He's got a funny face, he's got to be guilty!

This part of your post looks like it could have been from an early draft of 'The Crucible'.

reply to post by Skeptical Ed


So you justify any law that is created. Even a law that makes you a terrorist for no aparent reason? A law that locks us in like pigs?
If so congratulations for being a prime example of what not to be like, for being a perfect example of what the united states want us to be like. I hope you know that the government doesnt like people who spread disinfo on fourm site, they might just come and get ya!

Peace!

reply to post by ufo reality


He should of forwarded all the information to every ufo consultant out there, along with all aspects dealing with and in the ufology field. Usually the ones that have already worked inside the government would be the best bet, they know how to cover every angle.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America for which it stands one nation under god indivisible with LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

hopefully that means the government stops with the lieing and gets a pair of balls and gives the world what they can and can't handle we are no longer in the 1950's # OR GET OFF THE DAMN POT.

Speaking in general but that is a given, nice post ufo reality.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by menguard]

Originally posted by Armour For Victor
reply to post by Skeptical Ed

 

So you justify any law that is created. Even a law that makes you a terrorist for no aparent reason? A law that locks us in like pigs?
If so congratulations for being a prime example of what not to be like, for being a perfect example of what the united states want us to be like. I hope you know that the government doesnt like people who spread disinfo on fourm site, they might just come and get ya!

Peace!

This x 100,000.

Now you have to ask the question what kind of insane person would want all these laws? Must be a paid, brainwashed disinfo agent. I guess you can get people to believe and do anything with the right level of conditioning and hypnotism.

Sad how some people are so spiritually and mentally lost.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Jinni]

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed

Yes, it is a crime.

I know that the avalanche will begin as soon as I say this but NASA is a U.S. gov't agency. Our tax money is not doled out to them by us by Uncle Sam and NASA has deep pockets and the DOD makes sure most of that money is spent on their projects, covertly, of course. I'm not a conspiracist but only a fool would argue differently.

I'm not a happy camper in the USA. We have a shameful government that doesn't give a damn about those who support it. Almost every politician is owned by private interests. Trillions are wasted on useless projects that return nothing to those who sweat to support them. Even the church gets our tax dollars. Think of all of the schools, hospitals, textbooks, etc., that could have been erected and purchased with the fast disappearing money that tells us Mars or the Moon or the goddam universe is this or that. We know little about our planet yet we want to colonize other worlds and kill any inhabitants we may find for humans are naturally cruel. Just ask Columbus and those who followed him.

Yet one doesn't have to destroy stuff. If I went to some other planet and met aliens I would not suddenly go out and say, "Hey! Let's blow them up.". Nor would I do so.

But if it is "natural" to do it, and that equals "genetic", would you support the development of, e.g. genetic engineering technologies, to remove the "genes" that create the cruelty?

BUT! We still have a justice system that controls our lives with just and unjust laws. Until the unjust laws are replaced by just laws we are all slaves of the system. If you live a lawful life, you don't know trouble. If you violate the laws trouble finds you. McKinnon found the trouble he triggered.

So then how would it be FAR worse --- FAR worse than being "run by private interest" and wasting "trillions" of dollars on "useless projects that return nothing to those who sweat to support them" -- to "condone" "crimes" involving breaking "unjust" laws? I'm not saying whether I do or don't condone it, I'm just asking a question here.

(PS. "NASA" does not cost trillions of dollars. It makes up only a SMALL fraction of the budget. The military costs way more, that's what we need to get rid of. That's money spent on nothing at all useful, as it is all about destruction.)


[edit on 13-10-2009 by mike3]

[edit on 13-10-2009 by mike3]

[edit on 13-10-2009 by mike3]

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by gormly

 

The problem is that people like you don't see a crime here, and it is simply because you are in his corner. Kind of like politics where it's OK for your side to lie and be hypocrites as long as they are on your side.

No, not like politics. It was criminal to hide these things from us. He should be considered a hero, not a criminal. After all, he obviously hit on a secretive sore spot, otherwise, the rabid dogs wouldn't be so intent on jailing him.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Visiting ESB]

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Visiting ESB]

Originally posted by Visiting ESB
It was criminal to hide these things from us.

Ha, here it is again. The argument that the cover-up is a crime.

Just recently I tried to get people's input on why the cover-up is a crime and I'm still yet to be told what's the legal basis for this claim.

Perhaps you meant to say the cover-up is immoral?

The longest lasting sentence for hacking that I could find in the united states is 20 years. They are going to take this man out of his own country and give him up to 60 and some of you are saying the punishment fits the crime? It's 40 years more than anyone else gets. What makes him so special to keep him locked up for 60 years?

I'm sure he will be treated like a terrorist instead of a hacker. How can you people support this decision? Even if you think he deserves to be punished (which I do but not to this extreme) how can you honestly say the punishment fits the crime?