Abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia

Abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia

First I ask what your opinion is on each of these and then for an explanation as to why you take that stance.


Abortion for the most part I am against this. I believe that an abortion is murder. I also believe that life starts at conception simply because if left alone the embryo will grow into a fetus and further into a child if nature allows. Nature normally only causes a miscarriage or still birth if something happens throughout the pregnancy.

Of course I have heard the parasite issue many times and it does not hold water with me. The reason for this is that young children and many older adults (not to mention unforeseen life issues for those in between) are just as helpless as a fetus in a womb. I have heard the argument that a child or others can be taken care of by others, while this is true the truth is they still require someone to take care of them regardless of who it is. Meaning they cannot survive without care making them in a sense no better than a parasite.

I have also heard the argument that animals often kill or leave for dead young that will not survive on their own (funny how when humans want something they point to what animals do, yet we try to be civilized). Animals also do things such as kill rivals, mates, and those who would harm the herd should we start doing that as well, legally? What about the fact that some animals eat their own feces? Does that sound appetizing? There are cases though were animal let young live that need extra help or that will certainly die more easily in nature (in our town right now there is an albino deer that roams the neighborhoods in a more wild area it would certainly die by predator quickly). I have seen animals born with three legs, when it is supposed to have four and the mother cares for it just the same. Just because animals do it does not mean people should, while we are animals are we not supposed to be a higher life form? I agree that not everyone is above animal instincts, but that does not make it right. Animals and humans are different regardless of how much people want to point to things animals do that humans want to do.
If we are to allow abortion at what point should we have a stopping point? The average pregnancy last 40 weeks any born before that is considered premature birth.

www.mayoclinic.com...

There are cases of children being born as early as 21 weeks and surviving.

www.nysun.com...

My first son was still born at 22 weeks and he was certainly a small human. He had fingers and toes, eyes and a nose. His brain was formed (still growing but that happens for years after birth as well). My second son was born at 32 weeks and is a very healthy pain in the rear that I love.
Knowing that children have been born at 21-37 weeks and survived, we can say that a fetus at this point is a child. Some may take more medical treatment to survive than others but they still could survive. There are many adults who have required medical treatment to survive. Does this make them any less human?
By week 5 the baby’s brain and heart is developing. At week 7 their face starts to develop.

www.mayoclinic.com...

Should there be a limit or should we just allow for abortions as long as the woman wishes it to be done. If we allow for them at any point this is the results we can expect to see.

WARNING VERY GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN LINK PROCEED WITH CAUTION!!!
www.priestsforlife.org...


Partial birth abortions depending on where you read are considered to take place from 18-20 weeks on up.
www.nrlc.org...
www.youtube.com...


This despite the fact that fetuses can feel pain as early as 8 weeks.
www.bmj.com...
bham.academia.edu...

Though there were studies that say even later.
www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.nytimes.com...

Strange though considering a child can be born at 21 weeks or more and still live and feel pain when born. I guess it is some magic trick that when you exit the womb you can suddenly feel pain? I highly doubt the validity of the third trimester claim myself, if for no other reason than premature births.

I will reluctantly agree that at times there might be need for an abortion for the sake of the mother and possibly for the sake of the child (again I am reluctant to go say it though I will). I have seen and personally know people who doctors have said their child would be in some horrible condition when born and would be unhealthy for life. Those very people chose to keep the baby despite what the doctors recommended. Those same people now have a healthy baby boy that never was in any real danger like the doctors thought. He had a few operations for some issues but has actually been healthy the whole time. The doctors were wrong; yes the doctors were very wrong.

I think the worst is when someone uses abortion as a form of birth control. I would rather the child be put up for adoption. If put up for adoption the mother will not have to worry about how to care for the child as someone else will. In some cases you could even find people that would gladly pay the bills surrounding the birth if they could adopt the child.

I am against abortion. But if it is to be done let it happen no later than 5-7 weeks along. I hate even saying that but being that humans will be humans and seek it regardless lets allow it to a certain point for the sake of the child.


Continued in next post.

[edit on 10/8/09 by Raist]

The death penalty I am against this. I do not feel it is my right to chose for another to die. Unless of course they are attacking my family or me, in other words defense is the only reason I see for killing another person. I think for the most part those that are given life in prison could find it to be a worse offence than death if we took some of the softness out of the prisons. In other words quite letting them watch TV, get the better medical treatment than the average citizen, and in many cases get better meals than the average citizen. They go to jail they can get three meals but why give them great meals give them no more than they need to live on. Give them a cot and a cell without all the comforts of home like the perks they can gain for not causing trouble such as soda, candy, or whatever else. I have seen some of these documentaries where their cells are set up better than some college kids dorm rooms. Quit letting the criminals have it easy, make it so that jail is a real punishment.

As for those who would harm a child though I believe they should get the special treatment of lifelong torture. This is most likely a morally corrupt issue and for that I would ask for forgiveness from God but that is how I feel on the situation. Death is too easy and quick a way out for those who harm children. As for the other criminals they could be given life in jail for murder I have no issue with that.

Back to the death penalty though I feel that killing someone in other than self defense is wrong. Now if someone busts into your home and you have the means take them out. I cannot read their mind and would not be in the mood to talk it through with them. Regardless of their intentions I will assume they are there to hurt my family (who I will protect to the death).

Most would rather not spend life in jail because they are still missing much of their basic rights, despite the fact that they get many perks and do not have to work for them. You can find many inmates that would rather die than spend more days in prison.

www.swissinfo.ch...

If they think it is that bad then by all means keep them there. Of course take away some of their perks but make them see that prison is someplace they do not want to return to if they get out. Do not let them think of it as a vacation or some type of long stay at a day spa. A place where prisoners do not want to leave? And this is considered punishment? Strange punishment indeed.

www.newsvine.com...


Euthanasia is certainly a slippery slope. Given all the talk over government run health care there is likely to be such events taking place regardless of our feelings. The money for the care has to come from some place and I find it difficult to believe that our government cares about someone who is 80 and not going to be putting money into the tax system.

Aside from that though, I have rather mixed feelings on euthanasia. I truly do not know if I can take a full stand on either side for it. Given that I will speak less on this subject myself but encourage others to give their view it they have more. I see how it would be kind to allow a person to leave their suffering behind but at the same time I am very against suicide (something that has affected my family therefore I am strongly biased against it).

I think that if the person is in a condition of being brain dead the “plug” so to speak should be pulled as their life is one in which they have no joy what so ever. Those who live but a life with pain or one where they will be dead soon I would rather see them find a way to ease their pain so that they could have joy in the last days with their family.

What about those (terminal patients) though who cannot afford nor could their families afford the medical bills? Should they be “put to sleep” if only for the cost savings? If that is the case what about letting anyone die just because they cannot afford healthcare? What about those who would rather die on their own terms than the terms of their illness? If we go by that should we just allow for suicide help for anyone who is asking for it? Certainly there are many who wish to commit suicide who feel they suffer daily in life from either real or conceived torments.


Raist


[edit on 10/8/09 by Raist]

Abortion

Personally, I would have no part in it. That being said I'm not going to stand in anyone's way who wishes to go through with it.

Death Penalty

I'm not comfortable with how the DMV operates. I'm definitely not comfortable with the same state authorities deciding life and death.

Euthanasia

If it's your personal choice then more power to you. If you've been convinced it's a 'good' or 'proper' thing to do whoever or whatever did the 'convincing' should be euthanized in your place. Oops, I just violated my position on the death penalty.

Abortion:

It's none of my business what a women does with her body as long as it doesn't cause me harm.

Death Penalty:

Easy way out. IMHO it is worse to rot in a state prison for the rest of your life. Don't give any of the 'comforts' you get in prison such as visitors, tobacco, books, television.

Stick them in a small cell with nothing but a blanket and a jumpsuit. They will want to die after awhile, a living hell.

Euthanasia:

Once again, why is it anyone's business if someone is going through horrible pain and is tired of living?

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Thanks for the response.

But with the abortion thing should there be a limit or should it be a free for all?

With the information of premature infants surviving should we not take that into account?

I agree on the death penalty with you. I have looked into it and seen many who were wrongly imprisoned. On the other hand there are a majority of those on death row at the moment that are guilty. Though I think life in prison would be more of a punishment myself.

Raist

reply to post by lucentenigma


Thanks for the reply.

Interesting view on the jails. I agree with you they are far too easy on the prisoners.


As for the abortion thing though what about a limit on when it is done, say over a certain point provided it is not a medical issue? Look at the number of premature babies that survive even from as early as 23 weeks along. Is there a point or should we allow up until the day prior to birth?


As for euthanasia and people not wanting to live. What about those who are depressed and just do not want to live? That could be considered when it comes to euthanasia. There are those who are terminal that would rather die sooner than later.

Raist

Originally posted by lucentenigma
Don't give any of the 'comforts' you get in prison such as visitors, tobacco, books, television.

You DO know that there are many innocent people wrongly convicted in prison right?

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Thanks for the response.

But with the abortion thing should there be a limit or should it be a free for all?

With the information of premature infants surviving should we not take that into account?

Free for all. If some woman doesnt have an issue with repeated abortions or knowing a perfectly viable 8 month along would-be child is about to have it's brain sucked out I'm not sure I want that offspring running around. The less chance a person like that has to procreate the better.

Deep.

Abortion:
I'm a man, thus I have no right to tell any woman what she can, or can't do to her own body. Personally I don't like the fact that people have abortions, but it is legal. I would rather reduce the amount of Abortions and increase the available choices for women instead of having an abortion. But they are legal. A lot of things are legal that I don't agree with, and many things are illegal that shouldn't be.

Death Penalty:
Once again, we are one of the only western industrialized nations that kill it's prisoners. I'm not against it completely, but I think it should only be applied if there is absolutely NO doubt. Texas, and other States are now faced with the proposition that they have executed innocent people.
If we can't be 100% sure, than we shouldn't do it.

Euthanasia:
Another personal decision in my belief. Nobody should decide this for someone else, but if a person decides it for themselves, who am I to say they can't. Dying slowly, from a terrible disease, can be extremely painful, so if someone is facing that, I have no problem with them deciding this for themselves.
But NOBODY should make that decision for anyone else.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by uaocteaou]

I do not agree with abortion as birth control. Take responsibility to avoid pregnancy if you don't want a baby. Does that put the onus on women? Mostly. That is their decision to become pregnant or not. Once pregnant why is it the woman that decides that what was put in motion be stopped? There's no voice for the living tissue in this decision. You don't know what that child may become. Adoption is a better option than the inconvenience to the mother. I know this will be unpopular but I think taking responsibilty BEFORE the fact is a better route.

This will also not be popular and even contradictory. Might also be biased as I work in Corrections but I support the death penalty. Not as retribution but to remove people that can't possibly be rehabilitated.

As to euthanasia I'm all for it. Give people that have no hope and in great deal of pain the dignity to die peacefully. 8 years ago my grandfather had terminal liver cancer. They kept upping the morphine until he passed peacefully. One of his nurses was a close personal friend. The other option was to let him and the family suffer for 2 weeks to a month. No one deserves that.

Originally posted by Raist
Abortion, the death penalty, and euthanasia

First I ask what your opinion is on each of these and then for an explanation as to why you take that stance.

Wow Talk about tackling a difficult subject.

I'll answer before I read the rest of your post.

Abortion:

I am Pro-Life. I don't however base this on my religious beliefs but rather on logic mixed with personal experiences.

While attending college in Southern California in the early 70's I knew two girls who had abortions. One a good friends girlfriend and the other a close personal friend. Both were of course pro-abortion prior to having one and both became pro-life afterward based on how it affected them mentally.

My close friend told me immediately afterward that she actually changed her mind in the middle of the process but that since she had already been sedated by the clinic workers they refused to listen to her and proceeded with the abortion against her will. She was never the same afterward. She went into a deep depression she was never able to recover from. It was a painful process to watch which brings me to point one.

Abortion is irreversible. Dead is dead and no amount of grief can restore that life that was taken. It is very common for a woman having an abortion to change their minds afterward and to suffer for their decision that was likely made while in no state of mind to make such a decision. A decision to take your own child's life is no small matter.

My close friends girlfriend also changed right after the abortion. She also became depressed and in her case she became angry at the world. Within weeks they canceled their planned wedding. She became a bitter angry woman who before the abortion was a sweet mild tempered girl that we all loved.

After this I realized just what an emotional toll it takes on a Mother to make the decision to kill their own child. The price is terrible. So terrible in fact that McCorvey in Roe v Wade became Pro-Life after the decision.

The rest of my decision is based on the fact that no person can say what a child's life will be like in advance or what contributions they might make to society. The woman not wanting the child is a false argument for a number of reasons. Foremost is that there has always been a waiting list of willing Parents that would love to adopt. One other is that there simply are no accidental pregnancies (excluding rape) and the reality is that abortion is being used as a form of birth control no matter the misrepresentations of that fact by groups like Planned Parenthood.

It also seems to me that the child should have the same right to life as the Mother. Even worse the child can not defend itself against the willful taking of its life.

My apologies as I have to go to a meeting and I'll come back and respond to the other two subjects shortly.

Abortion: A poster said, it's none of my business what a woman does to her body. But the woman isn't doing it to HER body, she is doing it to the body of a baby inside her.

The only reasons I can see for abortion to be deemed acceptable are:

The child will suffer terrible pain and die soon after birth: This would be more mercy than murder. The child is doomed to die, and this is hopefully saving it from some of the pain it will have to suffer.

The mother will die upon child birth: You can't FORCE a mother to live for 9 months knowing the child she is carrying will ultimately cause her death. It's not a great situation, but it's the only 'semi-fair' option.


Rape: I'm sorry, and it sounds very harsh, but let me ask you this... Is it the babies fault?

9 months and it can be given up for adoption, if you really couldn't stand the thought of havging a child that is the product of rape, then this option is very fair. Why should the baby be punished, I know many women would not want to cope with that, but I'm sorry life isn't fair... but we do not gain the right to take a life because of what happened to us.

Any other reason your pregnant: It's kind of your own fault, theres plenty of contraceptive methods out there. Now I WOULD accept the morning after pill, because, even using contraception is could break leaving you pregnant. It's wrong, but the couple have taken precautions and it didn't work out; ideally they owuld keep any child anyway, but the morning after pill okay. And the same for rape, you have that pill and okay, but you go a few weeks before deciding and you miss your tiny window.


The death penalty: For now I will simple say, why do we get the right to murder someone, yet claim we are better than them?


Euthenasia: This is difficult, it should be allowed, but there would need to be very strict regulations, completely removing any other family members for a set-time period to make sure they are not applying pressure.


Sorry for the short reply, I ended up arguing with a friend over this and I'm trying to mop up the relationship

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I don't know if this has ever happened or will ever happen again, but I agree with you on all counts! We should mark this day on our calenders!

Originally posted by Raist
As for euthanasia and people not wanting to live. What about those who are depressed and just do not want to live?

If they are of an age that is considered to be the age of consent (maybe 21?) then they should be able to make that choice for themselves. But I agree with others. It should ALWAYS be a choice that one makes for one's self only, either in real time or by way of a living will. No one should ever make that choice for another person.

Interesting discussion!

Abortion:
I am a man, but the point remains that abortion is legal. It is legal because sometimes their are people that don't want a child or they can not provide for it. adoption is there but is not reliable a child can get out of the orphanage and have no substantial education. I see abortion as an option but only if the house can't fully provide for it. I've seen those celebrity having a baby and debating weather or not to "keep" it . It's sick.

Death Penalty:
I actually like this one, sometimes a crime is to great to keep your life. Killing five people and getting life in prison, no big deal in going to prison. sure there are people who get killed but you know honestly it's like being at home. I think if someone goes to death row they should be taken right out of the court room and shot With the jury watching so if they have any doubt they would not condemn them to die. would you if you thought there was any chance that someone was innocent would you say they should die? Yeah Texas did recently have some trouble them frying some people. But you know not that many people are falsely jailed.

Euthanasia:
Okay hard topic easy solution. I know people should NEVER decide whether or not someone else should die. And if the person that is sick wants to die well that's their choice. Saying they cant and the have to live painful day until they die is cruel.

reply to post by Raist


Philosophically, I am against abortion, the death penalty, and war. I am also against prolonging life unnaturally. I don't believe in life support systems, again, philosophically. All of these things are "unnatural".

Miscarriage, disease, accidents, or retribution are part of a "natural" order.

Emotionally, I would not be able to have an abortion, given the choice of putting my child on life support I would have the utmost difficulty not doing so, and I would have a great difficulty allowing my child to join the armed forces. BUT, I would kill someone who harmed my child and take the repurcussions in this life or the next that came with it.

The problem is technology, I think. It gives us the ability to make decisions we shouldn't have to or even ought to.

[edit on 8-10-2009 by A Fortiori]

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


You have no regard whatsoever for the child because you don't approve of the Mother? Very sad.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by lucentenigma
Don't give any of the 'comforts' you get in prison such as visitors, tobacco, books, television.

You DO know that there are many innocent people wrongly convicted in prison right?

[sarcasm] Don't you know that EVERYONE in jail is innocent?

No I didn't know that, I thought our justice system was perfect? [/sarcasm]

What's with the uppity smart # comments and talking down?

I really don't get your point other than flaming me since I'm pro-choice which we all know you are not.

That is the good thing about not killing someone and letting them sit in prison, if information does come to light that would prove their innocence they can be released.

What are you going to do if you kill them? Same thing they do now: Oops.....

Death Penalty:

I struggled with this for many years. In the end I'm opposed to the death penalty.

The only time a life should be taken legally is on the field of battle or in self-defense. Two wrongs do not make a right is a cliche but applies here I think.

People that dangerous should be humanely separated from the rest of society until their natural death comes. They should be literally warehoused, fed and provided with shelter. Nothing more. No torture, no death penalty just contained to protect the rest of us.

Euthanasia:

No person should ever be involved in the taking of another life, in particular an M.D.. If a person chooses to end their own life it should be at their own hand. If they choose to do so that is their decision to make and nobody elses business.

As to the idea of euthanasia being used as is being considered in Great Britain to end the life of newborns who are less than perfect, I'm horrified by that. To place such little value on human life is a slippery slope that will lead to atrocities in the future. I can't even fathom the sick mentality of a person who would even suggest such a thing. I'm always amazed at the cold heartless people in government who value money over life.

Originally posted by Bill_Door
Death Penalty:
I actually like this one, sometimes a crime is to great to keep your life. Killing five people and getting life in prison, no big deal in going to prison. sure there are people who get killed but you know honestly it's like being at home.

I really don't know anyone that would compare prison to being at home.
That statement is about as far from reality as you can get....

Have you ever been to jail or prison? I highly doubt it with that statement.

If you have I would hate to see what your home life is.

Do you get a 3 room suite and kitchen in fantasy land prison? How about having your wife and kids with you, a fully stocked fridge, entertainment system and every other creature comfort you could want. What country do you live in? I need to move there and become a criminal....





[edit on 8-10-2009 by lucentenigma]

I believe in personal choice - down the line - with "cause no harm" to another.

If you abort believing the fetus is a viable being - then you are causing harm by your belief.

If you abort believing viability is after physical birth - then you are not causing harm by your belief.

If a person on death row wants to die - they should be allowed to.

If a person on death row wants to appeal - they should be allowed to as the law stands.

However - - Laws of punishment involving Death - should be done immediately IMO. I do not support lengthy appeals. I do not support repeat offenders who cause harm to another.

BUT - since I believe our real being is the spiritual being - - that the physical being is an experience choice we make - - - what really is death?