DHS strips Arizona sheriff of authority to patrol for illegal immigrants

So I went and read "The Sheriff Project"

That is some damn scary stuff. Please start a thread on it - I am curious what others will have to say about it.

After reading some of your stuff (very right wing I might add) - - I still say NO NO NO NO. What I'm seeing is little future "power Kingdoms" - like Maricopa County.

I'm not supporting any organization without checks and balance. Federal agents need to work along side local law enforcement. I will never support Sheriff Joe or any other "Do-Rightly" with an ego to have full authority over Federal issues/jurisdiction.

How much legal power Sheriff's really have - IMO is kind of a give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves.

Something to WATCH - for sure.

It did say Military Orders take highest priority.



[edit on 12-10-2009 by Annee]

The power of the Sheriff's office is a check and balance. I'm not really concerned about your dislike of that because for one, it would take an amendment to the constitution to change it and second all changing that power would do is eliminate a check against rampant federal abuse of our rights. I know you don't mind giving the feds unchecked power while Obama is in office but you must realize a Republican will be president again eventually, don't you?

The check to an out of control Sheriff is the local population's power to elect them. As long as the citizens support his or her actions they will remain in office.

Your issue is that you are a political minority in a very conservative location. Since you don't have the political clout to remove the Sheriff you support the federal government somehow stepping in and doing it for you.

Sheriff Joe won't be in office forever. The next Sheriff will probably be younger, even more conservative and be just as impossible to get rid of.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Marked One

(For those of you who don't know truly? Gestapo is a contraction of "Geheime Staatz Polizei". Or "Secret State Police.")

Many Words & Terms - - are adopted in language to apply to certain criteria. (I don't need a history lesson)

# gestapo Of, relating to, or characteristic of terroristic police methods or operations: gestapo tactics.

No but you do seem to need a lesson on common sense.

And yes; cops are the real terrorists. Give me a break.

What you are is someone who fits the profile of a redistribution of wealth - loving, obama kool-aid drinking, bleeding-heart-knee-jerk liberal who doesn't mind open border anarchy and for illegal immigrants to have amnesty and run amock, wreaking havoc on our nation.

I sure as hell hope you'll still be thinking cops are the real terrorist--Gestapo--Jack-booted-Nazi-Amerika-thugs when they show up to save your ass from getting mugged from behind while your withdrawing cash from an ATM machine. Or when they show up to arrest the person who raped and murdered your kid.

Even though I don't like you. I would still save your sorry ass--because it's my job. Still knowing that I may very well not be appreciated for it afterwards.

Believe me this is not as much of a police-state as you think it is. Because if it was?

For starters;

#1. Arpaio wouldn't have to deal with people suing him AT ALL! There would be no possible way anyone would be able to so much as try to sue him. Period!

#2. You would be in a penitentiary for thinking the way you do.

I could go on and on but I got better things to do right now than argue with an equivocator. I'm off to work...

...bye!

Originally posted by Marked One


No but you do seem to need a lesson on common sense.

And yes; cops are the real terrorists. Give me a break.

What you are is someone who fits the profile of a redistribution of wealth - loving, obama kool-aid drinking, bleeding-heart-knee-jerk liberal who doesn't mind open border anarchy and for illegal immigrants to have amnesty and run amock, wreaking havoc on our nation.

I need common sense? That's a treasure.

I'm simply stating what is going on. He is profiling and he is using aggressive "gestapo type" tactics. This information comes from first hand accounts in local newspapers and local discussion boards.

Yet - I haven't given my personal opinion on whether or not I agree with Sheriff Joe or his methods of curbing illegal immigration.

This is not about opinion. Profiling is illegal.

Where did I say I support Obama?

Maybe you should leave the drama out of the discussion.

I have lived in Phoenix for the past 18 years and NEVER absolutely NEVER seen a police blockade to check citizenship. That is ridiculous and has never happened. There is a check point at the boarder and about 30 minutes north of the boarder.

I support and I'm happy that Sheriff Joe said he wouldn't listen to ICE, screw them, they don't live here nor do they care about the people here. What the Sheriff does it investigate tips on companies hiring illegal immigrants and he raids and busts them. Good for him, it's illegal to hire illegal immigrants. So what's wrong with that?

What cracks me up is when these raids make the news and the owner of the company is upset like they are victims and they've done nothing wrong. And that sheriff Joe is drunk with his power and has some personal animosity towards them and there business . It's laughable that these scumbags trying to cheat on taxes want sympathy. And the worst part is that some brain-dead liberals give it to them .

In the next 5 years Mexicans will be the majority in Phoenix, so to think that the sheriff is racist and singles out hispanics is laughable . There are too many of them to pull over mexicans at will just to harass they're practically the majority.


Arizona has a high unemployment rate, so lets get the illegals out of here.

reply to post by NonDairyCreamer


You lived there for 18 yrs and you never heard of them setting up in Guadalupe?

Do you watch the news or read a paper or anything? Its pretty well documented. and I am pretty sure is not the argument here.

Its whether its ok to do so.

reply to post by ShiftTrio


Oh it's so well document and you're so well read yet you couldn't give me a a link or maybe a reference to a newscast about it??? In related news I can bench 1000 pounds. Don't believe me? It everywhere undisputed.

reply to post by NonDairyCreamer


Heres a quick Google.
www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.phoenixnewtimes.com...

He set up command posts in Guadalupe It was also on the news I can look that up as well if you want. Sorry but it is the truth, You drive through Guadalupe much?

reply to post by ShiftTrio


Seems to me as if he is doing a great job. According to the msnbc article he has arrested 900 illegals in 3 years and that was in 08. If he is staying on track he should be around the 1200 mark.

Now if every police unit would follow his lead our illegal population would fall dramatically. Instead of crying foul about his tactics people should follow them.

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
reply to post by NonDairyCreamer

 

Heres a quick Google.
www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.phoenixnewtimes.com...

He set up command posts in Guadalupe It was also on the news I can look that up as well if you want. Sorry but it is the truth, You drive through Guadalupe much?

I've posted 383 pages of material obtained via FOIA request from ICE. This material makes up the entire "complaint" history against the Maricopa County Sheriff's department and includes all the arrest reports and operations reports for the immigration sweeps.

Funny, they don't seem to have a single instance of roadblocks or house to house searches and all the other things people are claiming in the news.

In fact, out of all these half dozen or so cases, none of them bothered to file a complaint. What they did do is show up at a meeting for the "racial profiling" board and claim all kinds of racial harassment. What's even better is that in all the cases but one these stories end with that person going to jail for possession of drugs or existing warrants.

I've read the ICE / Justice department version of the events surrounding the one single complaint which is being used to file a class action lawsuit. After reading it I have no doubt at all the entire event was set up by the
complainant on purpose.

If the Maricopa County deputies are racially profiling then where are all the arrests of Hispanics? Those documents include every arrest report for the entire county on days when 287g arrests were made. In every single report the number of Hispanics arrested is lower by at least half vs. other ethnic backgrounds.

As I've said, Sheriff Joe has done plenty to get in trouble over. No one lifted a finger to do a thing until he started going after illegal aliens and he wasn't even getting that many of them. We're talking maybe 3000 in 2.5 years vs. 30000 detected at the jail after being arrested.

We're not talking innocent, just getting by immigrants here. I'm talking about 30000 criminals picked up for the full spectrum of possible crimes. How could anyone want to trade one bad Sheriff for 30000 plus criminals?

I really feel sorry for the cops. I don't always see their side of things and I've seen plenty of abuses of power but this racial profiling nonsense has to be the greatest tool for criminals to use against them since a certain apple was stolen from a certain tree.

Every one of these people complaining should have to spend a week riding along with the police. I think the education would do wonders for some people.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by ecoparity]

reply to post by NonDairyCreamer


Mexicans ARE the majority in my area. In fact the highschool I attended is 80% hispanic, and my city in general is so Mexican that the ONLY major grocery store in our city is a Cardenas- no Albertsons, no Stater Brothers, no Walmart. Not even the god danged cops in my area are white (and god knows the last thing my race will ever give up is the job of shooting or chaining up minorities- so you know this must be a seriously brown city).

If you can't eat a habenero pepper and still speak clearly, if you have to google the difference between a norteno and a sureno, if you don't know what to say or how to say it in order to befriend a sureno gangster even when there is a mutual racial distrust or even hatred between you, if you don't speak spanglish, if you've never spent any time among migrant farm workers, and if you haven't had to tell your little sister that you don't care if she dates Mexicans as long as they come from an oldschool Southern Mexican family, then you have no standing to speak on the matter as far as I'm concerned.

I've done all of the above and then some. I've shed their blood, they've shed mine, we've sweat and cried together, and we've mingled more unmentionable bodily fluids too. So my Mexican credentials are about as sound as any whiteboy's can be, and I think I can tell you a thing or two about the Mexican people- starting with the fact that some of them are more American than you ever will be, regardless of citizenship.

A good friend and employee of my grandfathers bought himself a hotel in Mexico City off his wages picking fruit in my grandfather's employ- he could pick twice as much as any other man my grandfather ever met, including my white uncle- who is one hell of a man in his own right- I mean proud Apalachian hillfolk- the kind of redneck son of a gun who builds his own saw mill out of crap he stole from the local dump and teaches his nephews (me included) to catch, skin and fry frogs during this god awful recession. But that illegal worked and profited better than even my uncle or I, and, like many of his people, was probably more American than you or I. Because in case you haven't read your history, this country was founded by dirty outcasts who were big on work and profit but not so hot on rules (not that I'm not a dirty outcast- but I gotta give credit where credit is due none the less).

This illegal lived in a shack with no plumbing or power in the orchard because he was afraid he'd get picked up by "la migra" if he stayed in the bunk house- but every morning he emerged clean and fit to attend any white church, even though he had so much money that he'd go back home and hire a mariachi band to follow him around and play while he got drunk all friday and saturday night every weekend. And on monday he was back in the orchard. He never stole anyone's job or tax money- he was the best man for the job and he didn't need handouts because he was making what he was worth and he was worth plenty- and if you've got a problem with him despite that, personally I'd say there's something wrong with your world view.

One winter, the frost hit early. The Marines from 29 Palms heard that the citrus harvest (on which the local economy depended at that time) was in peril. So the USMC offered a some libo to any Marine who wanted to make some extra money picking fruit. The Mexicans (not just this one, but all of them) ran circles around our finest. The Mexicans were paid by the crate. The Marines made minimum wage (less than the Mexicans)- because if they'd been paid by the crate they would have been making under a dollar an hour.

When Caesar Chavez and his UFW came down here from Berkley threatening the lives of my Grandpa, my mom, and my aunts, that fellow was in his path, not on his side.

Long story short, these people aren't the problem by and large. Regardless of skintone, you're gonna have your trouble makers and your morons, and your chronically poor- and I'd like to see them all, white, brown or pink-polka-dotted eliminated from the job market from the demand side by dealing with exploitative employers who will hire anyone who they can threaten and extort but nobody who can stand on their own two feet (because, having worked at a virtually all white company owned by an organized crime syndicate [the hessians motorcycle club] that employed only teenagers and felons, I can tell you that exploitation knows no color- hence my fierce pro-union sentiments).

So if it doesn't interfere too much with Sheriff Arpaio's grandstanding, maybe he could take the time to read this, realize that illegals aren't doing half the damage to our great nation that drug dealers, child molesters, and crooked freakin politicians (sheriffs included) are, and leave the friggin workin' man alone for just a little while. There are plenty of REAL threats to be addressed. Then, when or IF everything ever gets to be hunky-freakin-dorey in other respects, we can revisit the idea of rounding up and scapegoating the brown people- but don't hold your breath.

I realize that in and of itself, this post may seem like race-baiting, but I've already given you the legit answers. Joe Arpaio has no constitutional standing to do what he's doing, he's being grossly inefficient or even ineffective in his true function as a county official, and his treatment of his fellow human beings would warrant a summary execution in any decently run civilization. Any attempt to ignore or override those facts simply on the grounds that he's targeting Mexicans who lack American citizenship is simple race-baiting and is most aptly replied to by the post above.

reply to post by The Vagabond


The real irony in your story is the guy you described can come to the US legally to work every year. Farm workers are allowed in fairly large numbers every season.

The pro illegal immigration folks always seem to look at the problem through a microscope and not see the big picture. No one is saying that all illegal aliens are criminals beyond breaking the immigration law but there are a huge number of violent felons among that population. That's not race BS, that's hard, statistical facts.

Legal immigration screens the people coming in to make sure they will make a decent living or get an education and are not criminals. It controls the number of people coming in so we don't have immigrants putting other immigrants out of work and onto welfare.

Believe it or not I've taken the time to study the issue, on paper and face to face. I've seen things I'd be willing to bet none of my fellow illegal immigration counter positioned have even imagined.

The pro illegal immigration side relies on fiction. All the popular arguments we hear are completely false. There are some fine people, families who I would be proud to sponsor as legal immigrants to this country but continued illegal immigration will hurt them as bad as it's hurting the rest of this country.

For starters these people are exploited in every way imaginable. Worse, the little bit they make at work is going down year by year as new illegal aliens show up willing to take less than the previous year. Employers are all too willing to take advantage of this, especially with the downturn in the economy.

The only good news I've heard lately is that quite a few are leaving because they can no longer make enough money to be any better off here than they were at home.

Lastly, handling the issue by ignoring it is creating an endless problem. We cannot continue to take in millions of illegal aliens every year. No country can handle that kind of traffic. Enact amnesty and you'll just have another 50 million, more actually wanting amnesty in another 10 years instead of 20.

Eventually the free ride will end. If you think it can just go on forever you need to face reality. There will be just as many good people and little children wanting to come here when that day comes as there are now. If you really care about these people you would support stopping the illegal immigration while working to enact social reform in the home countries.

Otherwise you're just putting a band aid on an amputation.

Originally posted by ecoparity
The real irony in your story is the guy you described can come to the US legally to work every year. Farm workers are allowed in fairly large numbers every season.

As I understand it, that was the problem. He preferred to come back every monday, not every year. Turn the situation around- what if I worked in Mexico, and the minute work slowed down they told me, "ok, time to leave your home and your friends and get your gringo butt out of here until we need something from you again next year"? Ya think I might elude those authorities?

At any rate you seem to be missing my point ever so slightly. We aren't discussing immigration policy in a vacuum and I'm not saying that I support an open border. I'm making the point that these criminals are not necessarily harmful or dangerous. Of course they are criminals- they do something against the law. But am I supposed to fear and disdain them just because they dare to be against the law? I'm against a lot of laws. There are places where owning a bible makes you a criminal afterall. It's against the law to criticize certain governments. But you're not in those places so you're not a criminal. Would you become a different, more dangerous and evil person by crossing a border into those jurisdictions where you are a criminal though? So the word criminal is a hollow hot-button word that while it has a scarry connotation and wins a lot of support for one side, really doesn't carry any significant weight from a logical standpoint.

So let's see the hard statistics that are not BS about the huge number of hardened violent felons coming across our border, and lets check the validity of the sampling. Remember the difference between an illegal immigrant and a legal one is that the illegal doesn't allow himself to be documented.

Shall I hazard a guess that these figures are based on discoveries made by cops who pick the illegals up for other crimes and not on the basis of their immigration status (the way Joe is supposed to be operating)? Cause with methadology like that, I wouldn't be shocked if 98% of the illegals they found were hardened felons. But that's of the illegals they found- not of the illegal population. Back in the real world, estimations of how many illegals there are in this country very wildly from source to source, and for the most part immigrants take pains to avoid being documented, making most statistical measures very difficult to check.

Plain and simple I defy you to prove that singling out illlegal immigrants is the most efficient means of determining who is immediately dangerous to the local population, because if it's not, then Arpaio is wrong.

I'll deal with the rest of your post later, I have a few obligations.

reply to post by The Vagabond


I can't help but be a bit surprised that your example of a fine, illegal immigrant is a guy who comes over the border to work so he can go back and get drunk every weekend. There are plenty of better examples, young people working here to support entire extended families back in their home countries, families who split up and come over one at a time over the course of a decade - just kind of funny.

Here's a government study from 2004 by the Center for Immigration Studies: CIS Study

I've found it to be a very fair study, non partisan based on the fact no one from either party would listen to these folks...

They found that overall illegal immigration is costing the US billions and billions and an amnesty program would increase that cost to hundreds of billions each year.

I haven't made the claim that street level enforcement is the most efficient way. It's the most efficient way based on current laws. Passing very tough laws targeting employers would be much more efficient but no one wants to touch that political hot potato. The illegal aliens seem to have a huge voting impact in this country.

The Sheriff doesn't make the laws though - they only enforce the existing laws or choose not to enforce them. While I'd prefer to see employer level enforcement until that happens I'll take whatever we can get. The real travesty as I see it is that the longer we take to face up to the facts on this the longer people will continue to suffer in these countries which have no safety net for the poor.

Here's another CIS study on crime and illegal immigration:
The cost of a broken immigration system

And some crime statistics:

Houston Examiner

* 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

* 83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

* 86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

* 75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

* 24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

* 40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

* 48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

* 29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually

* 53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

* 50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

* 71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes".

* 47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

* 63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens

* 66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

* 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the US to illegal alien parents in just one year, making 380,000 babies automatically US citizens.

* 97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.

* 66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers

[edit on 13-10-2009 by ecoparity]

i love glenn beck lol.

he had the sheriff on the air with him.

(paraphrased)
Glenn: "So, Sheriff, let me get this right..... you are profiling people?"

sa: "no no no its not that, we are doing it legally, with a law that lets me pull over people for LOOKING LIKE THEIR ARE DOING ILLEGAL STUFF"

Glenn: " what law is that? ive never heard of that!"

sa: "i dont even need that law though because im not going to stop"

Glenn: "wait.... what???? how can you possibly do that?"

sa: "im going to do what it takes to make this place better"

Glenn: "by breaking the law? what about these tent prisons?"

sa: "what about them? i dont think we should be putting illegals in a hotel!"

glenn: "but isnt crossing the border a misdemeanor?"

sa: "so! they are criminals"

glenn: "do you put jaywalkers in prison?"

sa: "no but its... still... they are criminals"

glenn: "that you are profiling to catch...."

haha i was laughing the whole time.

you would be amazed at how many things glenn does that liberals would love if they could get over their own "rules of who to like and not like"

in the end, illegal immigration is bad. its a crime, and it should be stopped, but thinkig that they get a free ride is an extreme that makes no sense.

profiling is bad too, so its a fine, grey line.

i got a turn signal ticket and went to court. you dont know how many people were illegal and drunk driving or hit and run and none had a license.

absolutely sickening. they didnt even get sent back, just a ticket and let go

Crossing the border illegally is a felony now.

This entire media circus isn't about Sheriff Joe or racial profiling. Its about the Obama administration wanting to neuter the 287g program. They want to bring back sanctuary cities where local law enforcement can't do anything to the illegal aliens.

All this crap about race and racial profiling is just a tactic the illegal immigration lobbyists decided to use because they can't win the debate legitimately.

We have all these bad laws crippling any effective enforcement because the illegal aliens have huge political lobbies, the biggest of which is the government of Mexico. They spend millions buying US politicians because they get tens of billions out of us for it. They can ship their poor here and not have to spend money on social reforms or safety nets for the poor back home. Add to that the tens of billions in US dollars the illegal aliens send back into their economy and you start to see why even a small arrest of an illegal alien in a place like LA has triggered massive protests.

People need to see the big picture. This entire issue is hiding massive amounts of corruption in the US government and this country does not have unlimited funds to play with. All the money being sent out of this country because politicians are being bribed would make huge differences in the quality of American lives. This country flushes money like its toilet paper and then claims we cant afford to do things like build a fast rail network, or research alternative energy using real amounts of funding, feed the poor and end homelessness . . .

Even when you show people how amnesty or even just doing what we're already doing is just making things worse or will make things worse they don't care. You wonder why our society is crumbling? Because people still cannot look at the bigger picture. They prefer to make emotional, party politics driven choices rather than taking the time to really research every element of the problem.

The government just wants to get rid of an enforcement program that was starting to have an effect, nation-wide and are using this controversial Sheriff as the platform on which to sneak it through. When its over he'll still be Sheriff, the immigration problem will take a step back and keep floating in stasis and no real problems will be solved.

I'm still amazed how easy it is for them to manipulate people. Like candy from a baby. No wonder they're so full of contempt for us and consider us to be stupid cattle.

Case in point:

This entire media event has been presented as the "DHS strips Sheriff Joe of immigration enforcement authority".

Why isn't the headline "DHS strips all local law enforcement nation wide of immigration enforcement authority"?

That's the truth of it. The new MOAs (ICE contracts granting authority) were sent out to every law enforcement agency in the country, not just the Sheriff of Maricopa County.

These new contracts are all the same, they only allow immigration checks in jails. All the authority to conduct immigration sweeps and go after the human smugglers has been removed from the MOAs.

Here's the real story behind the hype

But it seems the program is working too well. According to Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) and Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas), two authors of the 287(g) program, the Department of Homeland Security has made changes to the program that may slow the program’s growth and endanger community safety by providing a free pass to many illegal aliens in the country. A revised Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) and Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) template has been issued by DHS and all current and future participants in the 287(g) program will have to sign it despite the fact that it advances legal inaccuracies, affirmatively makes some illegal aliens a low priority, suggests a distrust of local law enforcement, and arguably embraces a pre-9/11 mentality. A number of local 287(g) agencies are trying to negotiate modifications to the new DHS template agreement, but it remains unclear to what extent they will be successful.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by ecoparity]

just to let everyone know.. there is a user on youtube who posts many videos on this particular subject... it mostly centers around immigration,police abuse, and racism in Arizona, Maricopa County inparticular..

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by The Vagabond
reply to post by NonDairyCreamer

 

"If you can't eat a habenero pepper and still speak clearly, if you have to google the difference between a norteno and a sureno, if you don't know what to say or how to say it in order to befriend a sureno gangster even when there is a mutual racial distrust or even hatred between you, if you don't speak spanglish, if you've never spent any time among migrant farm workers, and if you haven't had to tell your little sister that you don't care if she dates Mexicans as long as they come from an oldschool Southern Mexican family, then you have no standing to speak on the matter as far as I'm concerned."

HAHA what the hell was all that? I only read about a 1/4 of it because it was pointless ramble. You are ignorant to make claims about me when you know NOTHING of me.

If you want to label me a racist I don't care, in fact I am not bothered enough to refute that with you, as you are stupid. But enough with the attacks.

My original post was supporting Sheriff Joe and mocking the owners of businesses that want sympathy when they are raided. I guess that makes me a racist in your eyes.

Also, I do know there are differences between the norteno and a sureno, my friend works in a prison.

PS Can I get your sister's number? Since you brought it up.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by NonDairyCreamer]