Why is your god the real god?

Originally posted by Mike_A

And if you can't answer any of these questions, if you can't come up with any real reason as to why your god is the real god, why then believe at all?

Your "questions" are silly and manipulative. They aren't questions at all. You already have an answer (?) in mind and are trying to use those "questions" to steer people to a conclusion you want.

What difference does it make to you what anyone believes?

If you don't believe in god(s) then don't believe. Simple, huh?

reply to post by PSUSA


Your “response” is off topic and baseless.

I have already said in the OP that these questions illustrate the problems I have with the idea that one can believe in a specific god over another. There is no manipulation involved.

The point of this thread is to try to better understand how people fit these logical problems into their belief system.

To paraphrase yourself, what difference does it make to you what questions I want to ask? If you don't like this thread then don't participate, simple, huh?

My god is the real god because, I don't have one.

My parents are Agnostic and allowed me to explore spirituality on my own growing up. I missed out on all the religious indoctrination that most people get as a child. I've never experienced anything in my life that would lead me to believe in any god. I think there's more evidence supporting the existence of Spider-Man than there is god.

God and religion were tools used to explain the mysteries of the world; Why does the sun rise? Where did people come from? Why do my crops grow? etc, etc, etc. More of those mysteries are being solved everyday. Now, god and religion are used more as a means to control people.

My god has to be the one 'true' god because if it wasn't I would be wrong.
The thought I could be wrong, let alone ACCEPTING that I'm wrong is some scary stuff.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Truth is one. Sages call it by various names.
the Rig Veda's

TEN SUFI THOUGHTS

1. There is one God, the Eternal, the Only Being; none else exists save He.

2. There is one Master, the Guiding Spirit of all souls, who constantly leads his followers towards the light.

3. There is one Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the reader.

4. There is one Religion, the unswerving progress in the right direction towards the ideal, which fulfills the life's purpose of every soul.

5. There is one Law, the Law of Reciprocity, which can be observed by a selfless conscience together with a sense of awakened justice.

6. There is one Brotherhood, the human brotherhood, which unites the children of earth indiscriminately in the fatherhood of God.

7. There is one Moral Principle, the love which springs forth from self-denial, and blooms in deeds of beneficence.

8. There is one Object of Praise, the beauty which uplifts the heart of its worshipper through all aspects from the seen to the unseen.

9. There is one Truth, the true knowledge of our being within and without which is the essence of all wisdom.

10. There is one Path, the annihilation of the false ego in the real, which raises the mortal to immortality and in which resides all perfection.

Hazrat Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan

NINTH BRAHMANA

Then Vidagdha Sakalya asked him, 'How many gods are
there, O Yagnavalkya?

He replied: 'As many as are mentioned in the hymn of praise
addressed to the Visvedevas,
three and three hundred, three and three thousand.

Yes,' he said, and asked again: 'How many gods are there really?
Thirty-three,' he said.

Yes,' he said, and asked again: 'How many gods are there really?
Six,' he said.

Yes,' he said, and asked again: 'How many gods are there really?
Three,' he said.

Yes,' he said, and asked again: 'How many gods are there really?
Two,' he said.

Yes,' he said, and asked again: 'How many gods are there really?
One and a half, he said.

Yes,' he said, and asked again: 'How many gods are there really?
One,' he said.

Yes,' he said, and asked: 'Who are these three and three hundred, three and three thousand?'

Yagnavalkya replied: In reality,They are only the various aspects of the one.

from The Upanishads

Enough said.

reply to post by Mike_A

But Jon, these are what my other questions addressed.

You say you see Jesus answer prayers but Muslims see Allah do the same. These experiences and supposed miracles are shared by all faiths; I know you say you are at a loss to explain this but hypothetically how would you go about doing so?

I would say that as a Christian i have a living relationship with God.
Do other faiths have the same ??

I don't think so, but i could be wrong. My wife is a priest and she has not heard of healing miracles from other faiths and don't forget, it is only Jesus that gives christians the gifts of the holy spirit.

If people have other Gods then i can only come to the conclusion that they believe in them because they have been brought up in the faith or they are just looking in the wrong direction.
How many times do we se on ATS, members saying that they have tried different faiths. they obviously didn't have a relationship with who they worshiped or they would stick with the one that they did.
When you do meet God you will have no doubts on who is the real one.

Originally posted by jon1


If people have other Gods then i can only come to the conclusion that they believe in them because they have been brought up in the faith or they are just looking in the wrong direction.

Let me guess, you were raised Christian.
That's the problem with having a religious discussion with religious people. They can't see past their own noses.

I'm still waiting for the post that says simply, Religion, What is the One True Faith? Then all denominations can have at it. To stay on topic, my god is the real one because he told me. Schizophrenia or visions. You decide.

reply to post by Mike_A


That is why it is called FAITH.

Instead of spending your day immersed in silly coffeehouse intellectualism, why not set out to PROVE/DISPROVE the exsistance of God?

By telling people "Can't prove it so it isn't real" you are saying the equivelant of "nanny nanny boo boo."

Great Questions!
I'm sure you didn't expect to really find the answers in the simple quips
replied in this thread.
Of course your reply to that is, you don't think someone can answer these questions.
However these can be answered very definitively, only it's going to take
alot of indepth RESEARCH until you see the light.
Since you are an ATS member, I'm sure you are aware just how hard it is to convince someone of the truth regarding any number of subjects.
People, even close family members, won't just take your word for fact.
New world order, collapse of the dollar, who Obama really is, what is really in those swine flu vacs., paranormal realities, UFO realities, the list is as long as this web site of the real documented factual realities that most of the population is clueless about, WHY?, because they haven't spent the time and effort it takes to find what is FACT and what is speculation.
So, for me to try and list all the facts needed to correctly answer your questions, would be as impossible as it would be trying to convince you of the facts reguarding any of the topics listed above, WHY?, because for you to believe the facts presented you must verify them for YOURSELF, someone telling you is not good enough.
Having said that, I'd like to make some statements that through hundreds of hours of research and personal experience, I know are facts, NOT SPECULATION, reguarding "Who is the real God".
Every quest for the truth has to start with a foundation, you can't begin to believe trigonometry until you believe that 1 + 1 = 2, if your uncertain that
1+1=2, every fact you build on that, is uncertain and for you your quest for truth is impossible.
So, for you to begin to answer your questions in this post you must start with a firm foundation of facts, once the foundation is laid, you then can begin to build on it just as you would with mathematics, FACTS not speculation.
So, I think the first stone to be laid in your foundation must be that God indeed does exist, again based on facts(I apologize for being redundant)
What are the facts that God exists?
I'll give you a couple to get you started,
The universe is in a constant state of expansion, which means it had a starting point.
Matter cannot reproduce from nothing, it also has to have a starting point.
To think that the extreme complexity it took to form our biological bodies and the habitat required to sustain them, all happened without intelligent design is complete foolishness.
So, once you have laid the foudation that God does exist the next to do is study the historys of religions.
Any honest examination of them will reveal facts or speculation,
If you, through unbiased decernment, hold onto the facts and discard the speculation you will begin to build a body of indisputable facts reguarding
who God is and who God is not.
I have spent a great deal of my life doing this, and these are some of the
facts that make me certain "who is the real God".
Before I state the title of the religion that I know to be the "real God",
I must preempt it with some disclosure and exclusion.
I'm sure your aware if you would take three people from any religious affiliation you would get three different answers on many topics.
I started off as everyone born into this world, believing what the people around where I was born believed.
But I soon discovered many "holes" in there beliefs that lead me to search out the truth, I am not saying this in a prideful way, but as humbly as I can, for I am convinced it was God himself who planned for my search and the revelation that comes with it.
Here are some of the facts that were revealed to me through verified
historical studies. I don't have the space here to back them up, but can only encourage you to see for YOURSELF.
There is no eternal torture chamber called "HELL"!
Without experiencing this present "Evil" world, we would not have the contrast to know "Good".
God will save all His Creation!
bibletruths.com

The only reason why Americans (for example) speak of 'god' ONLY in reference to the postExilic clan-god of Israel (YHWH aka Yahweh) is that the propaganda machine of Jews and Christians is so finely tuned.

They can even get educated people to believe in talking snakes and virgin births---so why not make some obscure middle eastern mountain-desert clan god the 'god of all creation' (whose favourite past time seems to be exterminating Amalekites, among so many other charming habits of his)

The problem with YHWH is that he is a clan god--i.e. the clan god of the post Exilic Jews (post 480 BCE), who promulgates things like ideas of a Master Race...er...Chosen People (I get my sexist-racist-xenophobic cultures mixed up sometimes) who have carte blanche to exterminate anyone outside of the tribe (but let's leave all the geonicdal vomit in the Book of Joshua placed into that vicious clan-god out of the discussion--at least for now...!!)

Originally posted by Mike_A
reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

 

Can I ask, do you define yourself as christian?

i.e. are you saying that all other gods are representations of the christian god or are you saying that all other gods are a representation of an undefined god?

I conside rmyself a follower/warrior of CHRIST-MUHAMMAD-BUDDA-KHUL-KHUL KHAN-MOSES-JOHOVA AND ANY OTHER NAMES YOU CAN MENTION
I support the DIVINE ONE FOR THE LIGHT REALM

Originally posted by DaddyBare
I wouldn't say my god(s) is any better or worse than anyone elses god(s)...
but the .44 mag I've carried on my right hip for the last 20 years means I don't have to worry about anyone trying to subject me to their beliefs in their god(s)

Now that is something to have faith in...

[edit on 6-10-2009 by DaddyBare]

A .44 CANNOT compare to a SOLAR FLARE MY FRIEND remember

It's not about "what" is the real God, or whatever other question. It's what does God want *me* to do? That's what differs between religions. Do I have to pray towards a geographical location 5 times a day? Nah, that seems stupid. Why not do it 6 times? Wouldn't that make you better? Not really. If I don't, is God going to get upset with me? Nope. If I kill someone, will God be upset with me? Not really. These are the questions people have to ask and find for themselves. Maybe you do believe that killing someone will make God angry at you, but that's something you need to think about and find the truth. It must be said its very easy to apply human "logics" to God. So God becomes this controlling, ultra moralistic, human made police of sorts.

So just go through different ideas and reject or accept the ideas that make sense to you. Loving your neighbor as yourself, ect. Sometimes things just ring true.

The soul grows from desire, if you don't have a desire for God, that's where your influences have taken you. If you do have a desire for God, then you're at a more advanced level than the preceding human desires. So what is it exactly that you want? If you don't want God, you won't find him...

[edit on 6-10-2009 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by Mike_A


[SNIP] You're not looking for understanding, you are looking for ways to attack.

But don't feel too bad. Christians do the same things, here and elsewhere.

Ill pick one of your "questions" at random

If your god is the real god because he/she/it can perform miracles, what do you say to other religions that claim similar miracles?

I say nothing. I'm not aware of any other faiths that claim such miracles as described in the gospels, but if there are, who am I to say they are wrong? Wars are started over such crap. Look at the "christians" that want the muslims destroyed. Leave them alone.

Mod Edit: Removed off-topic part. Please use the Complaints or Alert Function to let the moderators know when you have an issue.

[edit on 7-10-2009 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by NotTooHappy

Originally posted by jon1


If people have other Gods then i can only come to the conclusion that they believe in them because they have been brought up in the faith or they are just looking in the wrong direction.

Let me guess, you were raised Christian.
That's the problem with having a religious discussion with religious people. They can't see past their own noses.

NO, i was 47 before I found God, And i wasn't even looking.

[edit on 6-10-2009 by jon1]

Easy way to see if other religions do miracles.... Let's look at ANY religion running today. Many followers? Many offerings made to the idols? Why? How come? it cant be they do this 'cause Wal Mart had a sale on shrines and stuff. in order to have followers, one has to do stuff to have a reason to have followers at all. As for miracles- what about the idols in india drinking milk? What about the buddhists who can do unbelievable things? The lamas of tibet?

I am sure I can come up with a lot more- but I'm not going to sit and google religious miracles so they can be poo poo'd by the pre programmed set.

Oh, and BTW- I have prayed to Jesus for 2 small items (not money, or a solid object per se, like a car)... what I have gotten, to be honest and understatement, has been the complete and total opposite of what I prayed for. To say I have been disgusted is also a grave understatement. No, I dont want to listen to the 1001 reasons why this possibly happened. I am disgusted, and think each god is as sketchy as the last.

reply to post by Mike_A

You seem to answer it by just accepting you may be wrong, which I have no problem with but if you accept, as you seem to do, that you have no reason to believe that this god is the real one then why do you? What's the point when you could just as happily go on without this belief?

It's not the moral values that the associated religion espouses because you can take them without believing in the god; further more these good values are mixed in with other that I would wager you don't like (such as killing every first born son).

What's the point? For me believing in Jesus is all about a role model and having something I can relate to.

However, you think I'm saying because of the morals Jesus teaches you should believe in Jesus. That's not what I'm saying. I just told you I have NO WAY of knowing which God is the right God. You're trying to argue with my answer, but I never gave you one. I said I DON'T KNOW.

Yes I could live with those values without believing in God. But that's not the question you asked. You asked how do you know? Well I don't know. All I said is, if I had to "guess" I would guess Jesus, but that I could be wrong. You tried to turn that around so you could continue arguing and make more attacks. Why? You want to argue with someone because they don't know an answer to a question when you don't have the answer either? If that's atheism for you, then I think I'll stick with Jesus.


The story about the killing of the first born sons is just a religious attack. Your argument is based on a logical fallacy of yet again mixing the two belief systems. I see atheists use this argument all the time when they ask why does God let people die? The reason is, because that's how you get to Heaven.

Your whole argument is based on the logical fallacy that God was real when he killed those children, but that Heaven was not. Remember, it's the atheists that believe in death. People that believe in Jesus do not believe in death. They believe in Heaven. It's the atheists that would actually be spiritually killing us if God is real. It would be them leading us to a spiritual death where there is no afterlife. Remember, the Bible promises an afterlife. You've gotten your belief systems confused with each other before making your attack.

Remember, if God doesn't exist then he couldn't have killed them could he? If he's not real you can't blame him and be mad at him, but you're still trying to blame him. If Heaven is not real then neither is the God of the Bible. So, if you claim that those children died and didn't go to Heaven then you can't turn around and still blame God because if Heaven isn't real then neither is he. If he isn't real then he couldn't have killed anybody right?

If God does exist then any innocent children that were "killed" didn't die. Being under the age of innocence most of them most likely would have got a free trip to Heaven where they could live in peace for eternity. It's only the parents that disobeyed God many times that would have really been punished. The innocent children would have been up in Heaven chillin with God long before they ever had a chance to grow up to be like their parents and also be damned to an eternity outside the presence of God.

So he probably did those kids a favor. And you'll say what? Killing them was a favor? And try to turn it into another attack. But that's still based on the same logical fallacy that there is no Heaven, but that God is somehow still real? If Heaven is not real then God is not real and therefore could not have done them any favors.

If he is real then your argument basically simplifies to, God is a big big meanie because he carried a bunch of innocent children off to Heaven. Oh the horrors!

Atheists try to treat death so horrible, but you have to remember that the religious believe in an afterlife and dying is the only way to get to that afterlife. So, when you ask why does God let all these people die? It's a fallacy. We believe those people aren't dying. They're just moving on to the next life where they'll spend eternity. It's atheism that leaves us dead and rotting in the ground. Not religion. The real question to ask is why does atheism let so many people die? Not God. He provides a solution which atheism does not.

But like I said. If you don't believe in all that, and you think it's BS, that's fine. You don't have to believe in Heaven or God. But then it makes no logical sense to blame a God that doesn't exist for all the problems in the world and still come in and start a thread where the whole purpose is to attack an imaginary sky fairy. Make up your mind, is he real or not?

Now, I have a question also. You ask me what's the point? Well there's another question with no answers. It's like asking what's the meaning of life which also has no answer really.

But I'll ask anyway. Let's assume there is no God and there is no afterlife and evolution is true and we all just die in the end anyway. If that's the case then what's the point? Why are we here? Just to eat each other? I ask the question in reverse. What's the point if there is no God?

[edit on 6-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 7-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by jon1

I would say that as a Christian i have a living relationship with God.
Do other faiths have the same ??

Well that’s what many claim, whether they do or not is of course debatable but no less so than it’s debatable that you do. This is where the logical conundrum lies, if a Sikh describes the same religious experiences as you then how do you rationalise that with the fact that you believe your god to be the one true god (or set of gods). The same with saying these other people were raised with their belief, some were and some weren’t but the same can be said for most Christians.

The only belief that seems to make much sense (in the confines of belief in a god), imho, is to say “I don’t know which one is the real one so I’ll keep an open mind” while still believing in an undefined supreme being.

reply to post by crmanager

By telling people "Can't prove it so it isn't real" you are saying the equivelant of "nanny nanny boo boo."

If you can quote me saying that I’ll give you a cookie.

reply to post by lighthse777


I appreciate your post but it doesn’t really answer the question, it just says “I can answer it but I’m not going to”.

You look to be saying that you believe it because it seems to fit with historical fact? But other religions do this as well and so does known fiction, the only difference being that the we know who the latter was written by and why.

With respect this thread is about why people hold one thing to be true over other equally logical (or illogical) options; I’m not looking to find out how to find a god I should believe in.

reply to post by tinfoilman


So you don’t believe in the Christian or any(?) god you just believe that the historical story of Christ is one that could reasonably lead one to determine that this god should be the true god?

Fair enough, though I do still disagree with this logic.

With regards to the first born son, it wasn’t an attack and I’m not making any judgement as to whether god is real; for this thread I am willing to accept that one or more does. My reference to the death of the first born son was just an observation of morals that I think most would disagree with. You rightly point out that these sons would be accepted into heaven but that’s not the only consequence of this act, what about the effect on the families both their emotional state and their future ability to feed themselves? I think most would consider taking someone’s son away for no reason to be immoral, even if you give them a great life. But there are other examples such as Lott offering his daughters to the mob, stoning people, or burning them alive.

If you use the argument that the Christian god is or is likely to be the true god because what he teaches demonstrates the best moral standing then you must deal with the morality that you would not agree with as well.

At no point in this thread have I “blamed god for all the worlds problems”.

You ask me what's the point? Well there's another question with no answers. It's like asking what's the meaning of life which also has no answer really.

No my question is about what you, or anyone else, personally believes and why you believe it. Assuming you know yourself and why you make conscious decisions then it’s easily answerable; the meaning of life is not.

It’s not “what’s the point in life” it’s “what’s the point in believing something which you can’t find reason in”.


[edit on 7-10-2009 by Mike_A]

You look to be saying that you believe it because it seems to fit with historical fact? But other religions do this as well and so does known fiction, the only difference being that the we know who the latter was written by and why.

Mike A,
Your statements here simply are not accurate, this is only speculation on your part. I stick with my statement, do an indepth comparative religious study based on known historical facts and you will find the only one with any factual reality is Christianity.
Eastern religions are philosophical, Buddhism is only a way of life, it doesn't make diety claims.
Middle eastern religions are derivatives of judeo/Christian religion and history.
The only reason there is so much confusion about religion is people are clueless about the real factual documented history of this world.
The Bible can be proven to be true by historical studies of other documents.
The Bible can also be proven true by its proven timeline of when and by whom each book was written.
The Bible can be proven true by taking the prophesies of future events, made hundreds of years before, and the events unfolding exactly, with documented proof.
The Bible is the only religious book that can prove itself to be true, you really don't have to have other documentation.
It is not speculation to say when and by whom the book of Isaiah was written, its a matter of historical fact, so when Isaiah prophecies 600 years before the birth of Christ, so many details about His birth, life, crucifiction, death and resurrection that it absolutely could not be "chance" of these events taking place so accurately.
Many men have gone into a expository study of the Bible to disprove its credibility, only to find themselves convinced that its true.
Now here is the major malfunction with Christianity, the Bible "VERSIONS"
people are reading were NOT translated directly from the original Hebrew,
Chaldee and Greek languages.
The King James "VERSION" of the Bible was translated from the Catholic Latin Vulgate, so I'm sure you can imagine the unintentional as well as intentional errors contained within it, it has had 36,000 changes made from the original issue.
So I'm sure you can begin to see why there are so many problems with Christianity as a whole.
People are born into a family and are taught what their parents believe,
they go to the family Church, week after week, year after year, hearing
and for the most part believing whats being said.
So now they have this indoctrination deeply rooted, with emotional ties,
not aware that they have been given inaccurate Bibles and a whole lot of manmade traditions.
Then they might even want to dig deeper and so attend a religious school,
only to be given more manmade traditions instead of historical facts.
The truth is available, but sadly it must be sought after with much tanacity and diligence.
People are like dumb little lambs, I'm sure you've heard the term "SHEEPLE" before concerning government control of their lives,
the same applies to religion.
Thanks for the thread.