Shanksville Deconstructed - Part One...

Originally posted by trebor451

Originally posted by Jezus
Exactly.

The burden of proof is definitely on the Official Story believers.

Oh really. I unscrewed tezz on this once before, so I guess you are next.

Look up the definition of "status quo". The way things are currently.

If you or someone else (tezz, for example) do not like the status quo, or if they do not like the way things are currently, *they* can work to change it. The burden of proof is on *them* if they do not like the status quo.

The burden of proof is on *you* to sell enough snake oil and create enough "50' craters" and make up enough stories recite the same old worn out phrases and claim the same old accusations that have been proven false a thousand times over to change peoples minds.

The burden of proof is on *you*, my friend.

Prove what?

That the Official Story didn't happen?

So the evidence for the Official story is that no one can prove it wrong?

Negative Proof - "X is true because it is not proven X is false"

I have no idea what happened because the evidence is not conclusive.

All I know is I have never seen any concrete evidence a plane crashed in Shanksville...

Not even one single picture of a plane crash...

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by Lillydale
Hey ignorant. Where do you get 100,000 from???? You think you can make a valid point by fabricating something rediculous and then shooting it down? There only needed to be a few people involved.

"A few people involved"?!? What cartoon world are YOU living in? I'm going by the statements you conspiracy people are making, and the statements you're making are-

Wow, again with this.

DO NOT TELL ME WHAT I HAVE CLAIMED BASED ON WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE CLAIMED.

If you want to discuss my claims, then please actually address them. To tell me I am wrong about what I say based on things other people you do not agree with have said is the stupidest attempt at an argument yet.

Sorry pal but you cannot refute what I say with things other people say. Try using either actual facts, or my words to tell me why my words are wrong. See if you can write a post that is readable past the first paragraph. Any points you wish to make get lost when the opening statement reveals how ignorant, uninformed, and incorrect you are about to be.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Therefore, like Joey, you both believe the official government story about what happened in Shanksville, but you're both unable to supply any data about the specifics...

I hate to do your work for you, however since you (and others) appear to be too lazy or incompetent to do Internet data searches, here are a few websites and data sources for you to begin with.

I must add this caveat, however, to this post. This information presupposes a reader has the ability to read, comprehend, intellectually digest and logically consider the content. If the reader plans to use the "They all lie!" meme, then there is no use to read any further. Go on back to your Xbox or you Super Gamer Machine.

1) Social Security Death index (www.ntis.gov...)

Read the disclaimer on the above listed site. Specifically, the part that reads "the absence of a particular person on this file is not proof that the individual is alive.") However, there are passengers from United 93 listed and their date of passing is given as Sept 11, 2001.

The Social Security Administration is a US federally-managed organization.

2) Moussaoui trial evidence ( www.vaed.uscourts.gov... )

-Kingdom of Saudi Arabia ID card recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Saudi Arabian Youth Hostel Association ID for Ahmed A. A. Al-Nami recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Page 37 and part of U.S. Visa page from Ziad Jarrah's Passport recovered at the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Kingdom of Saudi Arabia passport for Saeed A A A Al Ghamdi recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Business card of Assem Jarrah recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Part of Ahmed A A Al Nami's Florida Driver's License recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
-Red bandana recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site

Zacarias Moussaoui was tried in the Federal District Court in the Eastern District of Virginia by US Attorneys and was convicted of conspiring to kill citizens of the USA as part of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The items above from the Shanksville crash site were accepted and entered into evidence.

The US District Court in question and the judge and prosecutors are all United States government entities. The defense attorneys are licensed by the US government to practice law in the locale specified.

3) FAA Bureau of Transportation Statistics database that states the aircraft never made it to its destination

Departure United Airlines 93, 09/11/2001 N591UA SFO 08:01
No record of it arriving

The "F" in "FAA" stands for "Federal", as in Federal Aviation Administration, another US government entity.

4) FBI Investigation page of United 93
www.fbi.gov... with links to the United 93 page.

The "F" in "FBI" stands for "Federal", as in Federal Bureau of Investigation, another US government entity.

5) FBI News conference of Sept 24, 2001
www.thepittsburghchannel.com...

“95 percent of the plane found at the site has been turned over to United Airlines.”

As of Sept 24, 2001, “seven more victims of Flight 93 that crashed in Pennsylvania were identified using fingerprints and dental records, a coroner said Sunday, bringing the total of those confirmed dead to 11.”

The "F" in "FBI" stands for "Federal", as in Federal Bureau of Investigation, another US government entity.

6) FAA communications transcripts from NTSB
www.ntsb.gov...

Between ground controllers and the aircraft in question.

Note: NTSB stands for National Transportation Safety Board, the US government entity charged with aviation safety in the US.

7) United 93 Digital FDR
www.ntsb.gov...

Note: NTSB stands for National Transportation Safety Board, the US government entity charged with aviation safety in the US.

8) United 93 flight path study
www.ntsb.gov...

Note: NTSB stands for National Transportation Safety Board, the US government entity charged with aviation safety in the US.

9) NTSB Accident and Synopsis database report of United 93
www.ntsb.gov...

Note: NTSB stands for National Transportation Safety Board, the US government entity charged with aviation safety in the US.
___________________________________

That was what I came up with after about 15 minutes of internet searching. I'm sure a dedicated afternoon, which is what most Troothers seem to have a great deal of, would be able to discover more.

In any event, right there you have 4 major US government organizations "supply[ing]...data about the specifics..." of United 93. There are, indeed, no specifics regarding the crater size, the exact lat/long of the impact site, the number of trees damaged from aircraft parts and fire, the cubic size of earth dislodged from the impact, nor dozens of other parameters or results from the impact. Based on what I know of aircraft crash investigation, I have no doubt many of those data are out there, but most likely kept at the FBI since this is still an open case. If I was an FBI guy, though, I'd keep it away from you people just to watch you go into vapor lock and get all catatonic with a twitching vein in your temple and bulging eyes and watch the spittle go flying as you accuse whomever of a cover-up. Bottom line, I'd wager, is this data is considered "FOUO", or "For Official Use Only", and giving it to a bunch of moonbat lunatics who wouldn't believe it anyhow is at the very, very, very bottom of their To-Do list.

There is a certain amount of logic that has to be employed with this data, though. I know that may be a challenge, but give it a go, if you could. The logic of cause and effect and of an understanding that the big picture is best seen as the sum of all the parts.

As far as tezz's claim that there is no data from the "official government" regarding these events (and there is a galactic ton of stuff out there - just go look for it) is promptly busted as the BS snake oil it is.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
rewey doesn't believe that Flight UA93 made that crater, so he should supply me with all of the crater analysis to support his OP.

So far, he's failed miserably.

Are you a bit simple or something?

I think I've done more analysis on the alleged crash site than anyone on ATS. Once again (because you seemed to have missed it repeatedly), I've POSTED THE LINK TO MY CRATER ANALYSIS in the first or second page of this thread.

You seem to want me to post it all in the thread itself, but it's 28 pages long, so just download the pdf for yourself, like everyone else...

Otherwise, feel free to provide your own. Of course, we know that won't happen because it will require you to have an opinion of your own...

Rewey

Originally posted by trebor451
I hate to do your work for you, however since you (and others) appear to be too lazy or incompetent to do Internet data searches, here are a few websites and data sources for you to begin with.

It's not my work, trebor. You believe it all happened, so it's your work to prove.

I missed the part in that rather long post of your's where you specifically provided me with the crash scene data about the crater.

Please, in your next post, show me the data that I am asking for.

In your self alleged 25 year career working as a 'civil servant' for the government DoD, I would have thought that you had the ability to provide the data that you were asked to provide.

As the creator of the thread, I will bring it back on topic, to try to reach some form of conclusion before posting Part Two...

Originally posted by Rewey
Look, I’ll explain the issue this way:

1. In numerous places, the ‘official story’ (and its supporters) has claimed that the ‘impact crater’ DID NOT EXIST prior to the impact of Flight 93.

2. Therefore, anything INSIDE the impact crater, which could only have been created by the impact of Flight 93, must have been subjected to the impact of the plane.

3. CameronFox calculated the impact of the plane as having the kinetic equivalent of 1484 pounds of TNT.

4. For light scrub and grass INSIDE the impact crater to have survived the impact of Flight 93, with the kinetic equivalent of 1484 pounds of TNT, is nonsensical.

That's the point of this thread in a nutshell.

Rewey

Any takers?

Rewey

reply to post by Rewey


We can conclude that both Joey and trebor have failed to supply you with the official government measurements for the crater.

Therefore, any criticism of your crater analysis, by them, is unfounded. They have an official script to stick to, but they both failed to provide the script, despite you requesting them to provide the official government data so you can refine your analysis.

Let's see Part 2.

Originally posted by Rewey


4. For light scrub and grass INSIDE the impact crater to have survived the impact of Flight 93, with the kinetic equivalent of 1484 pounds of TNT, is nonsensical.

It looks like a dirt clod that was held together by the roots of the clump of grass.

It's also nonsensical to believe that any to think that any explosive, pyro, or whatever that you would like to think was used to make the mushroom cloud, etc, would leave a single clump of grass unburnt while clearing the soil around it of ALL grass, down to bare soil.

The logical explanation is that the soil was dislodged violently by the physical impact, not by any fuel deflagration, and the grass fell back into the wing strike line.

Originally posted by Rewey

I think I've done more analysis on the alleged crash site than anyone on ATS. Once again (because you seemed to have missed it repeatedly), I've POSTED THE LINK TO MY CRATER ANALYSIS in the first or second page of this thread.

I wouldn't brag about this.

You spent a lot of time on it, and the true dimensions of the crater were 2.5 times what you believed to be true. Which invalidates your statement that the grass must be from where the thick part of the wings hit.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, this invalidates your OP.

Why should I continue?

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
You spent a lot of time on it, and the true dimensions of the crater were 2.5 times what you believed to be true.

Please post your official government sources that specify the true dimensions of the crater.

You've failed to do so through the whole thread, Joey.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
I wouldn't brag about this.

You spent a lot of time on it, and the true dimensions of the crater were 2.5 times what you believed to be true. Which invalidates your statement that the grass must be from where the thick part of the wings hit.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, this invalidates your OP.

Why should I continue?

You should continue because many of us would really like to know where you got your numbers from.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
It's also nonsensical to believe that any to think that any explosive, pyro, or whatever that you would like to think was used to make the mushroom cloud, etc, would leave a single clump of grass unburnt while clearing the soil around it of ALL grass, down to bare soil.

Funny that you would suggest to others in this thread that English is not their primary language!

OK... I think what you're trying to suggest here in your pidgeon-english is that the result from the fireball from impact was

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
clearing the soil around it of ALL grass, down to bare soil.

Do you mean all of this green grass all around the 'wing imprint' on the left?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f94bf65a1b67.jpg[/atsimg]

Don't worry - you'll have a chance to talk about this in another Part of these Shanksville Deconstructed threads. Right now, you just seem to be trying to move this thread off topic again...

Rewey

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
the true dimensions of the crater were 2.5 times what you believed to be true.

Got a source for that, champ? A link to anything official?

Pretty sloppy, don't you think (to use your words...).

Rewey

Originally posted by tezzajw
I missed the part in that rather long post of your's where you specifically provided me with the crash scene data about the crater.

I was responding to this post of yours:

posted on 12-10-2009 @ 09:40 PM

Originally posted by trebor451
So, I do not claim any knowledge of the size, depth, length, breadth or any other particulars of the crash site and would not venture any dimensional descriptions of such. Suffice it to say it was "the crater" or "the crash site".

Therefore, like Joey, you both believe the official government story about what happened in Shanksville, but you're both unable to supply any data about the specifics...

Tell me, trebor, who can we ask for the official government data? How can people, like you and Joey, believe what happened there, when you can't produce a single report supporting some simple data?

Tell me, tezz...where in that post did you ask for "crater" specifics?

You asked "who can we ask for the official government data?" I provided at least 4 sources where you could go to for what you asked for, "official government data".

You stated "you can't produce a single report supporting some simple data?", and when I did, you appear to be unable to read the myriad reports I documented - complete with links. You either do not understand how to accurately phrase what you are asking or you lack the mental capability to understand what I am posting. I suspect the latter.

I specifically posted a caveat to my last post that the information contained therein "presupposes a reader has the ability to read, comprehend, intellectually digest and logically consider the content." To be honest, that was directed at you and you proved the caveat was a necessary addition.

Regarding the size of the "crater", I have posted twice in this thread my comments on that - first in my post dated on 12-10-2009 @ 09:30 PM:

I was not in Shanksville during the impact of the aircraft nor during any of the recovery operations - never was, never claimed I was - so I am not privy to the dimensions of the impact crater. Nor am I privy to any of the official documentation that was the product of the criminal investigation (ongoing) conducted by the FAA and/or NTSB and/or FBI. I have no reason to be privy to such information - never have, never claimed such - so why you would think that my status as a civil servant working for a government organization would provide me access to such data is inexplicable - but with you asking the question, understandable.

second in my post dated posted on 13-10-2009 @ 06:34 PM:

There are, indeed, no specifics regarding the crater size, the exact lat/long of the impact site, the number of trees damaged from aircraft parts and fire, the cubic size of earth dislodged from the impact, nor dozens of other parameters or results from the impact. Based on what I know of aircraft crash investigation, I have no doubt many of those data are out there, but most likely kept at the FBI since this is still an open case.

You continually prove that you are unable to either read these posts or comprehend what is being said in them.

If *you* deem the dimensions of the crater a vitally important fact, then *you* can do the work to discover such. Somehow I doubt you have the capability to do such, so you sit here and do nothing but ask for information you are unwilling to go in search of.

Aren't Troothers great?

reply to post by trebor451

trebor, you're still posting, why?

You have failed to produce the official government data that shows us all the crater dimensions.

It appears that I missed the parts where you twice admitted your failure - that you can't supply the data about the crater. Thanks for very clearly highlighting your failure to do so.

I was after the report with the simple data about the crater, trebor. Now that you've admitted that you can't provide it, your presence here is only proving comical, as you have none of your official script to fall back upon to try and debunk Rewey's analysis.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by tezzajw]

nice thread.....pity about the nastiness of some(who appear to be in the Official Story Camp).....


In answer to your Q, it seems pretty obvious that the grass refused to burn or even singe because it came from the same Turf Supplies stores that the Pentagon uses for there external landscaping.....ie.Pentaturf.... you know, the Law defying strain of choice whenever massive fires caused by gallons of jet fuel may occur...

Again...i find myself thinking about the myriad of unexplainable happenings that took place on 9/11 that beggar belief....including your blade of grass under analysis here.....

I would also suggest that "empty vessels make most noise..." whilst referring to a few fellow atsers who have posted on this thread....

"Again, where is this "official story" with all these descriptive details that you are trying to disprove? The "official" dimensions of the crater, the "official" shape of the impact crater, the "official" account of how the plane behaved on impact? There is an official narrative about what happened on 9/11, however this level of detail is not included. So what are you basing your assumptions on?"

You say there is an official narrative about what happened on 9/11, however, this level of detail is not included. How in the hell can this level of detail NOT be included? What kind of bozo investigation was done at the crash scene in Shanksville to omit this very important information? I know, the same kind of bozo investigation the 911 Omission Report relied on for their report.

On the other hand, if this type of detailed investigation was done, why hasn't it been made public? So we either have incompetence at work here, or some insidious secrecy? Either way, it doesn't look good.

How can anyone with any common sense believe what they have been fed by the media without a proper investigation to back up the "official story" theory? Yeah, nice investigation. Let's take half a dozen non-descript photos, pick up the scrap pieces, throw them into the dumpster and call it a day. Let's not even bother to do something as elementary as measuring and properly surveying the impact area.

Let's throw the masses a nice postcard picture with a red barn, some black smoke and feed them some feel good story about some brave heroic soles overtaking the plane, crashing it to the ground and saving the day. And to really embed it into their psyche, we can get Hollywood to make some cheap B-rate movie about the whole thing.

I'll tell you, nothing beats reality based on TV News and Movies, preventing complacent morons from actually having to use their brains. The bottom line is if that you cannot provide a thorough and detailed proper investigation of what occurred on that day, you are full of crap. I believe more in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus than the truckloads of BS we were shoveled on that day.

Anyone see a 90 ton boeing jet debris field?

Anyone see ANY debris field?

and this is supposed to be the day of and after? Hahaha!

Originally posted by waypastvne
That photo was taken on 9/12/01 Between 11 and 12 Oclock, before any clean up started. The crater looks just did in the aerial video taken at about 6pm 9/11/01

Same goes for the photo below.

124.9 ft

I love these photos you've provided... Proof beyond a doubt how little evidence there was of any plane crash there... and people wonder why many have a problem with the "official story".

thank you for that.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by Orion7911]

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
"Again, where is this "official story" with all these descriptive details that you are trying to disprove?

Ask George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney - you know, the officials that told us the story of what really happened that day. Did you miss all that?

The "official" dimensions of the crater, the "official" shape of the impact crater,

How many sets of dimensions should there be? I was assuming just one but please enlighten me. I would have to guess you could find an official account of it in the accident report - the official documentation.

the "official" account of how the plane behaved on impact?

DFR and radar readings. Have you tried looking into 9/11 at all? You should.

There is an official narrative about what happened on 9/11, however this level of detail is not included. So what are you basing your assumptions on?"

I think I answered enough to not have to sit through the rest of your semantic laden and fact poor argument.

Originally posted by trebor451
Originally posted by tezzajw
Therefore, like Joey, you both believe the official government story about what happened in Shanksville, but you're both unable to supply any data about the specifics
--------------------------
I hate to do your work for you, however since you (and others) appear to be too lazy or incompetent to do Internet data searches, here are a few websites and data sources for you to begin with.

I must add this caveat, however, to this post. This information presupposes a reader has the ability to read, comprehend, intellectually digest and logically consider the content. If the reader plans to use the "They all lie!" meme, then there is no use to read any further. Go on back to your Xbox or you Super Gamer Machine.

That was what I came up with after about 15 minutes of internet searching. I'm sure a dedicated afternoon, which is what most Troothers seem to have a great deal of, would be able to discover more.

In any event, right there you have 4 major US government organizations "supply[ing]...data about the specifics..." of United 93. There are, indeed, no specifics regarding the crater size, the exact lat/long of the impact site, the number of trees damaged from aircraft parts and fire, the cubic size of earth dislodged from the impact, nor dozens of other parameters or results from the impact. Based on what I know of aircraft crash investigation, I have no doubt many of those data are out there, but most likely kept at the FBI since this is still an open case. If I was an FBI guy, though, I'd keep it away from you people just to watch you go into vapor lock and get all catatonic with a twitching vein in your temple and bulging eyes and watch the spittle go flying as you accuse whomever of a cover-up. Bottom line, I'd wager, is this data is considered "FOUO", or "For Official Use Only", and giving it to a bunch of moonbat lunatics who wouldn't believe it anyhow is at the very, very, very bottom of their To-Do list.

There is a certain amount of logic that has to be employed with this data, though. I know that may be a challenge, but give it a go, if you could. The logic of cause and effect and of an understanding that the big picture is best seen as the sum of all the parts.

As far as tezz's claim that there is no data from the "official government" regarding these events (and there is a galactic ton of stuff out there - just go look for it) is promptly busted as the BS snake oil it is.

The lengths you perp defenders will go to deny, dismiss and rationalize the lack of evidence on 9/11, as laughable as it was, is truly pathetic.

So lets take a look at the crash data from NTSB on 9/11...

www.ntsb.gov...

www.ntsb.gov...
www.ntsb.gov...
www.ntsb.gov...
www.ntsb.gov...

gee what a surprise... ALL THE DATA ON EACH INCIDENT IS FOR SOME REASON NOT AVAILABLE AND IN CONTROL OF THE PERP CRIMINALS, er i mean FBI... GEE HOW CONVENIENT THAT.

But other less serious crash investigations have more data and details than perhaps the biggest crime scene from air tragedies in history?

www.aeromedix.com...

www.popularmechanics.com...

en.wikisource.org...

www.ntsb.gov...