Do You have a Credit Card? A Loan? A Mortgage? Then you are equally at fault for the Economy.

reply to post by undo

Who's standards? Over half the world's population has no electricity. Millions can't get decent water to drink. I honestly think that our standards are set ridiculously high in comparison with the rest of the world. People just can't imagine living in a tiny little house, with no central AC or cable TV. Yet folks all over the planet live just like that, and manage to get by and even be happy.

Our work ethic and values, here in the US, anyway, have gone into the toilet. The vast majority (not everyone, of course) thinks that they shouldn't have to work hard to make their money. They demand raises in pay and yet produce less, spending their days slacking off, bitching about how they should be getting paid more. I know you've seen this for yourself.

People used to work crazy hours, multiple jobs, to be able to save enough to buy a home. Somewhere to put down roots, raise a family, and spend the rest of their lives on their land. Many, many people in the world still do this. Now, here in the US anyway, people buy houses as an invesment, living there only long enough to be able to sell at a profit and finance the next, bigger house. They repeat this over and over, building up a bank account that they didn't have to work for. Working their way up to their "dream house", which, 9 out of 10 times, they just re-sell anyway.

I did some work for a couple who were building their "dream house". They were so happy to be finally getting it. Within a year of it being finished, they decided it just wasn't enough and started building their new "dream house" right next door. To me, there's something wrong with the values of people like this. There are many people (myself included) who would be overjoyed to have a house half as nice as their first "dream house".

As far as the lower end of the economic scale is concerned, well, they generally find it difficult to impossible to get credit in the first place. When they do get some credit, to buy a house or car or whatever, odds are that they aren't going to be able to keep up the payments, so they end up losing what they bought anyway, and they're out the money that they did manage to pay back on the loan. So I don't see credit improving their standard of living at all in the long run.

I'm not saying it's all the fault of those who use credit. The media, bankers, and government have a lot to do with it, too. Someone had to do the work of convincing the public that everything's better with credit. Why do without, when you can get it now and just make easy payments on it later. Why work hard, when you can make a heap of money playing the stock market, just like the rich guys? What's wrong with you, don't you want to raise your standard of living? Just take out a loan, get your creature comforts, and worry about how to pay for it later.

When people would fall on hard times, more often than not the community would see to it that they had something to eat, and a roof over their heads. Now, since people don't buy homes to spend their lives in, community is all but gone. It's hard to form a cohesive community when the members are only there for a couple of years until they can move on up to the next bigger, better place. So now when people hit hard times, they usually have to rely on credit to get by, or government hand outs.

This doesn't apply to everyone, of course. It's has, however, been my observation that it does apply to the majority. If we were still in the days of a hard day's work for a fair day's pay, of saving and sacrificing for what we want instead of just borrowing to get it, of an economy driven by production and not credit, I think we would be in a much better state than we are now, even with the money men shaping and manipulating the things which they have influence over.

The bankers have no power over those who owe them nothing.

Sorry this post got a little long. I'm certainly not making light of your situation. We all hit a rough spot from time to time in our lives. I just think that if our values and work ethic, as a nation, was still as it was 50 to 100 years ago, the whole "credit crunch" fiasco would be a non-issue.

reply to post by D.E.M.



Are you seriously suggesting that the amount of responsibility for the current World financial situation falls on the public?

Not even 1/10th of the bail out funds would have cleared every subprime mortgage off the books.

1/4 of all that money could have set up real "Manhattan projects" for alternate energy, high speed rail and a new production initiative to convert the American factory workers over to building high tech devices like affordable household solar systems, hybrid and MYT engine conversions for all automobiles and clean water evaporation devices.

I don't think people of your mindset realize just how much money was handed over to the very bankers who designed this financial collapse. Don't you get it? Bubble economies and collapses make the people at the very top of the financial pyramid incredible profits we can't even comprehend.

The entire financial course of the Western economies was designed back in the days of the Central banks being established. All that money was wrapped in control and the birth of the biggest financial monopolies in human history.

I don't think people realize just how big of an event this was. The war for global dominance is over. The power has been consolidated and all they have left to do now is eliminate 95% of us.

So some people took out loans they could never afford, usually because they made some form of income to do so. They are criminals, just like everyone in the housing and banking industries who invented the schemes. Do you really think the Wall Street elite set up this complex system so an illegal alien or jobless person could get some free rent and a couple of thousand in cash? I think you're missing where the real profits went from that mess.

People who used credit to have a home and a car who had a job and could pay the bills every month are now being told they have to pay double or triple payments every month.

Why?

Because those same banks have lost their freaking minds. They are so high on money and power they feel entitled to just take everything. They would rather push people into default and get nothing than be reasonable with interest rates or renegotiating the ARMs. It's not enough for them to make a fair, hell even luxurious profit. No, they want to bleed people dry.

Again and again I see the same story. These people aren't asking to get a free pass and keep the goodies without paying. They just don't want to get hit with double or triple sized monthly payments for no reason.

Did the interest rate for the banks go up 300%? Are they having to pay triple payments on the money they loaned out? Oh, so some of the bad loans they approved and encouraged like mad went bad and now they want the people who were honest to pay the difference. I could have sworn the taxpayers already covered that nut for them in the bailouts.

Apparently they deserve to get paid two or three times for the same debt. All that pretend money they never had to really put out must be made of pure pretend fairy dust, it's so pricey.

How could you possibly shoot your mouth off that people "deserve" that in some way? You really, really need to get a clue.

reply to post by quackers


actually it wasn't the consumer, it was something like this:

1. lincoln had no provision in place to improve the lives of the people that had just been freed from slavery. so they ended up being enslaved to the democrats, addicted to social programs, working for substandard wages, taking part in illegal drug running and prostitution, all of which is supported by various people of power at some level. not all people of power mind you, but enough to create a job category for just such things, and a somewhat liveable income till they were no longer useful and imprisoned for their efforts.

2. each time the democrats wanted to create a new series of social programs in keeping with the new world order plan, they'd appeal to the enslaved sectors of the populace to get them into office. they'd further this appeal by indoctrinating people in schools and universities, that allowing your fellow man to suffer in poverty was inconsolable. made sense, of course, but what they didn't tell them was that if the road continued in that direction, soon no one would have a means of self employment because everyone would be poor and enslaved. a shared misery.

3. the fees permits fines licenses and taxes grew so outrageous, in order to pay the social programs, that mom and pop business could no longer keep their doors open or even open their doors in the first place.

4. nafta and a few other programs meant to globablize the usa even more, allowed for new ways to let money out of the country, but very few ways to get money in.

5. this allowed chain stores to step in the gap with cheap slave labor from overseas, which THEN resulted in consumerism driving what few mom and pops were left, out of business.

it didn't happen all at once.

. . . and I didn't even mention that the credit card companies turned those guys without credit cards into social bums. Apply for an apartment and the word "credit" shows up pronto. Having bad credit is probably better than not to have one. "You have not been consuming? Where's the record that you have been consuming?" The Jews in 1930s Germany enjoyed a better standing than the folks who feel like not needing a credit card in the USA --the sick den where greed and injustice multiplies aplenty.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by D.E.M.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the amount of responsibility for the current World financial situation falls on the public?

In short, Yes. In long: The public created the problem both through utter apathetic inaction and their own greedy need for credit. Who gave the economists free reign to create the situation? Who didn't bother to say no and instead took out a loan for an SUV? The situation is not localized to the USA, the examples in the thread are endemic throughout the globe.

How could you possibly shoot your mouth off that people "deserve" that in some way? You really, really need to get a clue.

People deserve what they are getting because they did absolutely nothing to stop the situation from occurring. As long as they got their credit, their meal ticket, their television and their apathy they were fine to let the world fall apart and let their children take the fall for it. Now that the situation is coming to a head I have no patience to listen to them scream about their interest rates. Hint: Your interest is negligible if you pay your bills on time and don't buy excessively on credit.

As for clues, You think that a minute number of politicians and bankers has more power in their hands than 6 billion middle and lower class inhabitants of the world? You, sir, are the one who needs to get a clue.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by D.E.M.]

reply to post by subject x


exactly what i mean. the standards of living in the usa were so high yet the ability to maintain them was going the way of the dodo very fast. i've had months where i didn't have air conditioning...in florida. and i have a malfunctioning hypothalamus gland that doesn't readjust my body temp at the rate it should, so you can imagine what that's been like. we at least make more money now but the rate things are going, we have to keep shaving corners, and now we're getting into dangerous territory relating to things like health, death and life issues.

it didn't need to be this way.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo


I'm not sure what the point of your rhetoric is. I fail to see any relevence between Lincoln and some one living in middle England with £300k worth of debt.



[edit on 2-10-2009 by quackers]

It's just another example I guess of the Government leading by example.

They do, after all, borrow money (created out of thin air and backed by nothing) from the Federal Reserve (private banking cartel), as a loan and hit everyone else for the interest. Where is the responsibility there? They could kick the Federal Reserve banking cartel into touch any time and issue the money for free themselves, so why don't they?

Many people blame the borrowers for this mess. But, wouldn't it seem prudent for loaning institutions to make sure that they weren't loaning money to people who had a low likelihood of repaying? Of course it would. Unless... they knew their tails were covered.

The secret of loaning money is that the bank doesn't have to work or save for it before they can loan it to you. It's called fractional reserve banking. So the almost unbelievable truth is that the banks didn't risk anything by giving all these bad loans. When money is created out of thin air, and repayment is guaranteed by the government, you'd loan money to a potato if it could sign on the dotted line.

Not only that, but yes indeed there has been a "conspiracy" to get the public into debt. (We call it "debt" but once you understand it you realize it isn't a legitimate debt like we all assume it to be)

To see how this scheme was hatched, who did it, why they did it, and what they wanted to see in the future, G. Edward Griffin has outlined it in amazing clarity at this speech given in the 90s. Based on his book, "The Creature From Jekyll Island - A Second Look At The Federal Reserve"

Google Video Link

reply to post by 30_seconds


and wasn't there something about creating money for each new person born, which is then held in account and further backs any debt you might accumulate in your life?

“The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled.” ~ John Kenneth Galbraith, Economist


“Banks create money. That is what they are for. The manufacturing process to make money consists of making an entry into a book. That is all. Each and every time a bank makes a loan, new bank credit is created – brand new money.” ~ Graham Towers, Governor, Bank of Canada


“By a continuing process of inflation, they can confiscate - secretly and unobserved - the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft.” ~ John Maynard Keynes, Economist


“The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented.” ~ Major L. B. Angus


“If the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” ~ Thomas Jefferson, Third President of the United States


“The bank hath benefit of interest on moneys which it creates out of nothing.” ~ William Patterson, Founder of Bank of England, 1694


“Of course, banks do not really pay out loans from the money they receive as deposits. If they did this, no additional money would be created. What they do when they make loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrowers' transaction accounts. Loans (assets) and deposits (liabilities) both rise by the same amount.” ~ “Modern Money Mechanics,” Chicago Federal Reserve


“When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in our account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money.” ~ “Putting it Simply,” Boston Federal Reserve


“Whoever controls the volume of money in our country is absolute master of all industry and commerce. When you realize that the entire system is very easily controlled, one way or another, by a few powerful men at the top, you will not have to be told how periods of inflation and depression originate.” ~ James Garfield, 20th President of the United States


“Greed and fear of scarcity are being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using. For example, we can produce more than enough food to feed everybody, and there is definitely not enough work for everybody in the world, but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it all. In fact, the job of central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity.
Money is created when banks lend it into existence. When a bank provides you with a $100,000 mortgage, it creates only the principal, which you spend and which then circulates in the economy. The bank expects you to pay back $200,000 over the next 20 years, but it doesn't create the second $100,000 - the interest. Instead, the bank sends you out into the tough world to battle against everybody else to bring back the second $100,000.” ~ Bernard Lietaer, Economist, Author, and Former Central Banker


“The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debts.” ~ Henry Ford, U.S. Industrialist


“Thus, our national circulating medium is now at the mercy of loan transactions of banks, which lend – not money – but promises to supply money they do not possess.” ~ Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University


“The Great Depression was not accidental; it was a carefully contrived occurrence. The international Bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so that they might emerge as rulers of us all.” ~ Louis T. McFadden, Chairman, U.S. Banking & Currency Commission

reply to post by undo


No, money is not created until you borrow it.

"When the Federal Reserve writes a check to government, there is no checking account. There's just a CHECK BOOK!" - G. Edward Griffin

reply to post by 30_seconds


what's the difference between
UNDO and undo and Undo?

reply to post by 30_seconds


Quite so. And if people had not been so very willing to gorge themselves on credit, how would the banks have loaned out the massive amounts that they have over the years? You have to start somewhere, and unfortunately the only person the Addict has to blame for the situation they are in is themselves, for taking the first hit of the drug and going back for more.

reply to post by D.E.M.


wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if the buying power of the currency wasn't eaten away at by umpteen different taxes, most of which are wasted, then complicated by higher standard of living laws that only one third of the population could even afford in the first place.

Originally posted by stander
. . . and I didn't even mention that the credit card companies turned those guys without credit cards into social bums. Apply for an apartment and the word "credit" shows up pronto. Having bad credit is probably better than not to have one. "You have not been consuming? Where's the record that you have been consuming?" The Jews in 1930s Germany enjoyed a better standing than the folks who feel like not needing a credit card in the USA --the sick den where greed and injustice multiplies aplenty.

That's very true.

You go out and get a job. Here's your Paycheck. Federal law requires that you be paid with a Check.

Oh, you don't have a Bank Account? Then by Federal law you need two pieces of Identification. One being a State or Federal Identification with Photo, and the other being a ATM Bank Card, Debit Card, or Credit Card.

Oh, you don't have a Bank Account or a Credit Card? I'm sorry, the Banks can't cash your Check drawn on funds held at their own Branch (and even if you did, they'd still take your Fingerprint).

In order to get paid for the work you do in the United States you have to have either a Bank Account or a Credit Card!!!

You go out to rent an apartment. Here's your Application. They will need your Social Security Number, and Bank Account Numbers to run a Credit Check and verify that you have enough money in the Bank to afford the Rental. Oh, you don't have a Bank Account or Credit? Sorry, we can't Rent to you.

You want to have Electricity, Cable, or Internet? They too will need your Social Security Number and either a Debit Card or Credit Card. Because if you don't have a Debit Card or Credit Card then how did you find a place to live because you would have need those things already? Duh!

From the moment you leave the nest you must comply with the Banking Industry and play the Credit Game, otherwise your only other choice is living with Mom & Dad for the rest of your life (and hope you die before they do), or live Unemployed, Homeless and Destitute.

The hardest part, is once you start playing with the Big Boys, are you able to keep from falling into the many pitfalls they have to ensnare you deeper and keep you trapped? Apparently most can't walk that fine line of having Credit and not using it, or having a Bank Account and circumnavigating the Mine-Fields of Fees and Penalties. People simply need to learn how to say "No thank you!" when Trojans bear them gifts.

Unfortunately, unless we modify our laws, and no longer make Bank Accounts and Credit Cards a necessity in the United States to be employed, rent and have basic utilities, then people are continuously going to get sucked in and the Banks and Credit Companies are going to keep getting richer and fatter and greedier.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by fraterormus]

Originally posted by D.E.M.
reply to post by 30_seconds

 

Quite so. And if people had not been so very willing to gorge themselves on credit, how would the banks have loaned out the massive amounts that they have over the years? You have to start somewhere, and unfortunately the only person the Addict has to blame for the situation they are in is themselves, for taking the first hit of the drug and going back for more.

This is why one of the most important powers the federal reserve has is the control of interest rates. If they cannot entice borrowers into debt, they lower the interest rates until corporations, states, small businesses, and consumers think "Gee... I could use my own money now, or I could borrow at 1% interest and start making money off my investment too. It looks like I'll make more with the business I want to invest in if I have more money to invest with, so I'll just borrow it from the bank!"

That's the reason why control of interest rates is so important... normally, no-one would be able to artificially induce people into borrowing when it isn't prudent, but when you get money from thin air you can charge any amount of interest and get what you wanted from the beginning: control over people via debt.

Originally posted by D.E.M.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by D.E.M.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the amount of responsibility for the current World financial situation falls on the public?

In short, Yes. In long: The public created the problem both through utter apathetic inaction and their own greedy need for credit. Who gave the economists free reign to create the situation? Who didn't bother to say no and instead took out a loan for an SUV? The situation is not localized to the USA, the examples in the thread are endemic throughout the globe.

How could you possibly shoot your mouth off that people "deserve" that in some way? You really, really need to get a clue.

People deserve what they are getting because they did absolutely nothing to stop the situation from occurring. As long as they got their credit, their meal ticket, their television and their apathy they were fine to let the world fall apart and let their children take the fall for it. Now that the situation is coming to a head I have no patience to listen to them scream about their interest rates. Hint: Your interest is negligible if you pay your bills on time and don't buy excessively on credit.

As for clues, You think that a minute number of politicians and bankers has more power in their hands than 6 billion middle and lower class inhabitants of the world? You, sir, are the one who needs to get a clue.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by D.E.M.]

The current financial structure was built long before any of us were born. Credit, credit cards, predatory lending, etc - all were invented and made the "norm" generations ago.

So now, the current generation is to blame for everyone's mistakes. It doesn't matter that the elected government created this system against the wishes of the public, just as they continue to do today.

I get it. Because everyone isn't willing to vote how you think they need to in order to fix things or perhaps pick up guns and start a revolution we're all getting what we deserve.

I get the impression you really don't know how the financial system and credit works and to be honest, most of the people pointing fingers at joe public and taking that position all seem to be people who have bad credit and were unable to get a credit card or a sub prime mortgage. They want to jump up and down and act like they were more intelligent than everyone else by not using credit, blah, blah.

You need to draw a distinction between who is responsible and who needs to fix it. The people need to wake up, face reality and start doing something. I'll agree with you on that but the responsibility for this mess doesn't lie with the consumer.

If this is all the fault of the consumer then apparently the people aren't the ones who need to have been doing something about it, by your logic the banks should have been the ones to stand up to all these greedy consumers.

I think you just like to take the piss out of people.

I'd suggest some research into the terms "predatory lending" and "usury" unless you're just enjoying yourself by exploiting the anger and pain of those who are being affected the most by all this.

The only thing I can agree with you on is that people really need to wake up and realize who is behind them, what they're up to back there and which elected "representatives" are bringing the popcorn and soda.

reply to post by 30_seconds


it doesn't help when you hear stories like "henry ford went bankrupt 8 times before he finally hit the big one with his automobile"
how'd he manage to recover each time from the bankruptcy? they don't tell ya the bankruptcy laws are a whole lot different now than they were then.

or how about the business that is struggling. the husband signs the business over to the wife, and the wife files bankruptcy. then the husband gets a new name for the same business changes his cards and signs and listing in the phone book, doesn't have to pay any of his debts, the resulting debt is added to the national debt and the tax payers pay it. requiring even higher taxes. and all that could've been avoided by not taxing the crap outta business under the pretext that business is where all the money is. riggggggght. most such businesses were barely hanging on and creating new debt for everyone just trying to stay open against the flood of permits fees licenses and raised taxes.

The banks MADE their money back when the sold the loan to someone, who chopped and diced, made a salad out of them, and sold them to the investors, heck some of the cities, counties, and states got burned when those pieces of paper became next to worthles!
Then, they made their money back again, through the bailouts!!
Then, well, they will make another nice chuck with from the people paying that mortgage or the foreclosure and resale of the house!

but oh, ya, it's all my fault because I have a credit card, and a mortgate??
umm...sorry charlie, they are being paid still! but, the more crap I hear (like this), the angrier I get, and well, who knows what tomorrow will bring, I might decide me and my money are better off in another country, and well.....feel absolutely no guilt for not paying what I owe!! They've been paid!