Origin of Species - A new look

I think.

On the one hand religeon has to accept that evolution is fact because its been proven so.
Science however also has to accept that there is some form of intelligent force thats present in everything thats created in the universe. I personaly would'nt go as far as to say it was "God" or that it actively watches what we are doing. But its more of a model. A set of rules that allows ellements, atoms etc. to adapt to enviromental needs throwing up all varietys of diverse life. Oh wait a minute is'nt that just evolution.

Sorry Charlie D.

This could just be the result of Cannabis abuse. I'll have to get stoned and ponder it.

Peace out.

[edit on 26-12-2009 by Algebra]

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s

Originally posted by solomons path
If anyone wants to see these fundies do a 180 on the whole "equal time" argument and possibly even threaten you with bodily harm . . .

Print up a few copies of the bible with a special forward . . . Explain to your readers that this volume is nothing more than a collection of stories. Index all of the logical fallacies, contridictions, and other imaginary silliness . . . end with an opinion about the validity of any claims based within due to the illogical nature of said book and the fairytale nature of the stories. Give out these copies to prominent evangelicals in your area. Make a youtube video promoting this new version. Sit back and collect the death threats . . .

Great fun for the whole family . . . especially the hypocrisy.

Got to love evangelicals/protestants . . . they can sure dish it in god's name, but play the persecuted victim as soon as the shoe is on the other foot.

EDIT - spelling/grammar

[edit on 12/25/09 by solomons path]

You are attacking the beliefs of people. Not communicating with them. Not trying to explain why you feel the way you do, with respect and ease.
You are taking something that is loved, whole heartedly, and attacking it, ridiculing it, forcing your opinions on people.
And, you aren't doing it out of any positive goal. You are doing it out of a hate for religion, and direct malice toward any notion of "God".

I'm not even sure I believe in God, but I am pretty sure that if I was present somewhere, and saw somebody like you do something like you described, I might just put my foot up your a** on principle.

At least these people that are trying to convert others to their perspective religions are doing it out of a desire to "save souls", or some similar result.

I have NEVER seen anybody try to bring anybody away from religion with compassion, understanding and RESPECT.
EVER.

People like you ALWAYS do what you do, the way the woman in the video did what she did.
With aggression and malice.

Thank you for proving my point!!

Aggression and malice? I'd simply be promoting my views the same as Kirk and the Fundie bunch. Do you lable their methods as aggressive and malicious? Where did I threaten anyone or promote the end of their religion? Am I not afforded the same "equal time" when I want my views expressed? Should their religious views carry more weight than anyone elses?

Once again thank you for proving my point and I welcome your internet tough guy "foot in my a" anytime!!

Peace angry guy . . .

Originally posted by solomons path

Thank you for proving my point!!

Aggression and malice? I'd simply be promoting my views the same as Kirk and the Fundie bunch. Do you lable their methods as aggressive and malicious? Where did I threaten anyone or promote the end of their religion? Am I not afforded the same "equal time" when I want my views expressed? Should their religious views carry more weight than anyone elses?

Once again thank you for proving my point and I welcome your internet tough guy "foot in my a" anytime!!

Peace angry guy . . .

Sorry. I'm not going to play "internet attorney" with you, and attempt to dissect and label and reprove again and again. I see what you were trying to do, I addressed it, and I am moving on. Period.
And, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with their approach to gaining new believer to the Christian faith. It's subtle and it's harmless.
And, no, I do not believe any opinion that is based in an attempt to Destroy, should be handled lightly and given fuel. That is just another example of a loophole being taken advantage of.
And, I would be saying the same thing if we were here discussing Christians attempting to destroy or demean the beliefs of others.
The term that should be "key" in any discussion like this, should be "enlighten".
Any type of civilized change, based in an attempt to change the beliefs of a people, should be based on a form of enlightenment, with respect to the people being reached.
But, unfortunately, Christians are the target of ridicule, hate and merciless attacks against their faith with no thought for the individuals that hold it so close to their hearts.

Originally posted by Wallachian
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

I won't get dragged in your crusade against imaginary USA detractors. As I said, this isn't about the USA, this is about Creationism vs. Evolution, and more specifically about a "special" edition of "On the Origins of Species".

Unless you can provide a quote or tell me where exactly in the video this girl attacks the USA or Americans, I won't be a part of this.

Oh, I forgot, you just "suspect" that she hates the USA. You have no quotes.

I am offended a LOT by people like you.

People like me? Who exactly are "people like me"?

And what have I personally done to offend you? As far as I can tell I was nothing but polite towards you. Are you offended by anyone who disagrees with you or does my mere existence offend you?

Hhmmm... At this point, um, yeah, I think it's pretty much your existence that bugs me.

Oh, I forgot, you just "suspect" that she hates the USA. You have no quotes.

Correct. Although, I do believe that since the USA was originally founded on "Christian" beliefs, and the weakening of those beliefs seems to be having a direct and negative effect on the country, an argument can be made that she also hates the USA, since she promotes the continuation of this process.

People like me? Who exactly are "people like me"?

People that have an outlandish religious view, "Wicca", expect respect and tolerance, but are unable to give it.

I don't see any threads in this forum that are directly attacking Wiccans.

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s

Originally posted by solomons path

Thank you for proving my point!!

Aggression and malice? I'd simply be promoting my views the same as Kirk and the Fundie bunch. Do you lable their methods as aggressive and malicious? Where did I threaten anyone or promote the end of their religion? Am I not afforded the same "equal time" when I want my views expressed? Should their religious views carry more weight than anyone elses?

Once again thank you for proving my point and I welcome your internet tough guy "foot in my a" anytime!!

Peace angry guy . . .

Sorry. I'm not going to play "internet attorney" with you, and attempt to dissect and label and reprove again and again. I see what you were trying to do, I addressed it, and I am moving on. Period.
And, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with their approach to gaining new believer to the Christian faith. It's subtle and it's harmless.
And, no, I do not believe any opinion that is based in an attempt to Destroy, should be handled lightly and given fuel. That is just another example of a loophole being taken advantage of.
And, I would be saying the same thing if we were here discussing Christians attempting to destroy or demean the beliefs of others.
The term that should be "key" in any discussion like this, should be "enlighten".
Any type of civilized change, based in an attempt to change the beliefs of a people, should be based on a form of enlightenment, with respect to the people being reached.
But, unfortunately, Christians are the target of ridicule, hate and merciless attacks against their faith with no thought for the individuals that hold it so close to their hearts.

Whether you want to "discuss" it or not . . . you've proved my point. Christians can add whatever discrediting comment to secular views and it's promoting their "hearfelt" religion; however, if anyone does the same top their literature to express their secular views . . . it's mean spirited and once again the poor christians are being persecuted. Evangelicals can lobby for legislation to promote their views, but if someone does that same thing to promote secular views . . . it's a war against their faith.

Classic victims and it's work "miracles" for the last 2000 years . . .

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s
Hhmmm... At this point, um, yeah, I think it's pretty much your existence that bugs me.

The intolerance and hate always surface in the end. I rest my case.

People that have an outlandish religious view, "Wicca", expect respect and tolerance, but are unable to give it.

You're not the best person in the world to teach tolerance, are you? Oh and keep making assumptions about me, if you keep trying long enough, you might get SOMETHING right in the end.

I'm not a Wiccan actually, but since in your eyes the terms "Evolutionist" and "Wiccan" seem to overlap, I said I guess that would make me Wiccan too.

I'm unable to be tolerant? Do you even know me? No, again, you're suspecting, right?

My life partner is a Christian btw. Yeah, a real one. I respect his faith a lot, as much as he respects mine and as much as I respect everyone elses. Even yours. Although, quite frankly, you and your intolerance and arrogance and aggressive behaviour make me sick.

Lastly, a friendly tip: having multiple accounts on ats, especially after being banned at least once, is against the t&c of this site.


[edit on 26-12-2009 by Wallachian]

I believe in evolution but us humans are entirely different from the rest of the species. You could believe we descended down from the same species but the facts don't really show it that way. Many different races started emerging around the same time and flourished through different continents. Many tools being used were advancing at relatively the same pace. It was like something is guiding us towards technological advancement.

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

You are attacking the beliefs of people. Not communicating with them. Not trying to explain why you feel the way you do, with respect and ease.
You are taking something that is loved, whole heartedly, and attacking it, ridiculing it, forcing your opinions on people.
And, you aren't doing it out of any positive goal. You are doing it out of a hate for religion, and direct malice toward any notion of "God".

This is interesting, because if you were to apply this statement to what Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort did with Origin of Species, it'd fit perfectly. Can you not smell the irony?

Given your logic, I suppose it's fine for them to do it, because one can only assume that it was done out of their wholehearted love for God and creationism. One can only imagine that they were just trying to spread the good gospel around in an utmost respectful fashion and not forcing their opinions on others ...

Please! It was a PR stunt. Cameron and Comfort hijacked Origin of Species under the guise of God and did exactly what you oppose in your quoted text. This is no different than someone publishing the Bible with a small forward stating caveat emptor and then (like Solomons stated) giving opinions on why the Bible could be false. It's a desperate tactic for wanting to be heard.

Thumbs down on both Cameron and Comfort's attempt at it, and thumbs down if someone were to do it to the Bible as well.

At least these people that are trying to convert others to their perspective religions are doing it out of a desire to "save souls", or some similar result.

This is a weak argument and justification. How so? I could turn it around and say, "I only published my forward contradicting the Bible in hopes of saving people from a delusion."

This might be a bit off-topic...

reply to post by Deny Arrogance


The UN was created to end wars between people and to allow dialogues to exist between countries at odds with each other. It had nothing to do with famine. And it's been pretty successful in doing what it's set out to do. The RAND corporation found that the UN has been successful in 2 out of 3 peacekeeping efforts (which is more than any one country working on its own can claim).

And 70+ years? Try 64.

For someone who hates and distrusts something so much, you don't know a lot about it. Try learning from unbiased sources, not Alex Jones. If you knew about the different facets of the UN, and what they do, you'd know they're not scary at all.

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


The full presentation of what?

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Even if that were the case, everything he claimed has been subsequently demonstrated as being the truth.

So, even if he performed bad science (which he didn't), his discoveries were perfectly accurate. They've since been made more accurate by subsequent discoveries (DNA, for example, which fits in with Darwin's theory perfectly, and is of such accuracy our courts use it regularly).

Unlike Kirk Cameron, who's still a moron. And a bad actor. He, along side Ray Comfort, keeps talking about how perfect bananas are for eating. They are so ill-informed that they don't realise modern bananas were created by people through selective breeding. So yeah, Kirk and Ray, bananas WERE intelligently designed - by man. Those two people are so dense it's laughable. The original bananas, as God made them, would be almost inedible to us now.

Originally posted by solomons path

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s

Originally posted by solomons path

Thank you for proving my point!!

Aggression and malice? I'd simply be promoting my views the same as Kirk and the Fundie bunch. Do you lable their methods as aggressive and malicious? Where did I threaten anyone or promote the end of their religion? Am I not afforded the same "equal time" when I want my views expressed? Should their religious views carry more weight than anyone elses?

Once again thank you for proving my point and I welcome your internet tough guy "foot in my a" anytime!!

Peace angry guy . . .

Sorry. I'm not going to play "internet attorney" with you, and attempt to dissect and label and reprove again and again. I see what you were trying to do, I addressed it, and I am moving on. Period.
And, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with their approach to gaining new believer to the Christian faith. It's subtle and it's harmless.
And, no, I do not believe any opinion that is based in an attempt to Destroy, should be handled lightly and given fuel. That is just another example of a loophole being taken advantage of.
And, I would be saying the same thing if we were here discussing Christians attempting to destroy or demean the beliefs of others.
The term that should be "key" in any discussion like this, should be "enlighten".
Any type of civilized change, based in an attempt to change the beliefs of a people, should be based on a form of enlightenment, with respect to the people being reached.
But, unfortunately, Christians are the target of ridicule, hate and merciless attacks against their faith with no thought for the individuals that hold it so close to their hearts.

Whether you want to "discuss" it or not . . . you've proved my point. Christians can add whatever discrediting comment to secular views and it's promoting their "hearfelt" religion; however, if anyone does the same top their literature to express their secular views . . . it's mean spirited and once again the poor christians are being persecuted. Evangelicals can lobby for legislation to promote their views, but if someone does that same thing to promote secular views . . . it's a war against their faith.

Classic victims and it's work "miracles" for the last 2000 years . . .

There is no discussing it with PEOPLE LIKE YOU, because you have already afforded yourselves the luxury of labeling Christianity as "The Villain".
Once that has happened, PEOPLE LIKE YOU no longer respond to anything remotely resembling an exchange of ideas, or the possibility that you are dealing with "people", as opposed to a large, evil organization.
Because, without "The Villain", and the ability to hate it, you have nothing, and your view turns into one of malice and intolerance.

You are ignorant of the presence of "regular people" whom call themselves Christians, because it is more convenient to ignore them. Otherwise, you would have to admit that you are, in fact, attacking them. And, the vast majority of Christianity is made up of these very people. And, the vast majority of them are harming nobody, and just barely making it through their day, like people all over the world. Except, in this case, it is their adherence to Christianity that has helped them survive.
And, not only do you want to ridicule what they believe has saved them, but you, in turn, have also targeted them, as "Christians", to be a part of some sort of huge, evil power-base that most of them could not even conceive of.

Make no mistake here... You have taken on the very substance of that which you despise about the dark side of Christianity.

Good Luck with all that.

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

 

The full presentation of what?

Presentation=The full view of the theory Darwin gives. The Book, the ideas behind the words, "the man", the data, the studies, the history.
What went into the creation of the theory.

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


Harming nobody? They are perpetuating a culture of accepting opinion as fact if delivered by a preacher of their faith. That's DANGEROUS, and yet these common Christians don't think twice about keeping religion out of their kids' lives and letting the children pick their own religion - they're indoctrinated the second they leave the womb.

And not to mention the gay bashing performed by the churches of these common Christians, or their missionary organisations who trade water for condoms, and medicine for prayer. That's insidious behaviour that would make Jesus puke.

It's not Christianity most non-Christians have a problem with, it's the churches Christians have let represent them. They're corrupt, they're despicable, and they exist solely to ensure they keep existing, believers and non-believers be damned. Literally.

Originally posted by Wallachian

Originally posted by LASTofTheV8s
Hhmmm... At this point, um, yeah, I think it's pretty much your existence that bugs me.

The intolerance and hate always surface in the end. I rest my case.

I was fooling around. You might want to try a "Sense of Humor Spell".

People that have an outlandish religious view, "Wicca", expect respect and tolerance, but are unable to give it.

You're not the best person in the world to teach tolerance, are you? Oh and keep making assumptions about me, if you keep trying long enough, you might get SOMETHING right in the end.

I'm not a Wiccan actually, but since in your eyes the terms "Evolutionist" and "Wiccan" seem to overlap, I said I guess that would make me Wiccan too.

In the Immortal words of Bruce Lee..
"Wakkaaaaa!!!" Um, yes you did say you are another Wicca-wannabe. See?...

Sincerely,

another foreign Wicca-wannabee (I guess), Wayne's World escapee and 3rd world citizen.

And, actually, I don't care what you are, or believe. I just don't like the anti-Christianity movement you represent.
And, I'm not even a devout Christian.
I also don't like when Jewish beliefs are bashed, or pretty much ANY kind of blanket-policy hate.
It seems to cause me to lash out!

I'm unable to be tolerant? Do you even know me? No, again, you're suspecting, right?

I just went back and read your words. I see no evidence of tolerance. Sorry.

My life partner is a Christian btw. Yeah, a real one. I respect his faith a lot, as much as he respects mine and as much as I respect everyone elses. Even yours. Although, quite frankly, you and your intolerance and arrogance and aggressive behaviour make me sick.

He sounds very Christian. You guys must be adhering to the "Life Partner" section of the Bible. That's my favorite part. Perhaps some form of "Herbal Remedy" might help with that sick feeling.

Lastly, a friendly tip: having multiple accounts on ats, especially after being banned at least once, is against the t&c of this site.

The site is well aware of my circumstances. And, obviously I have made no attempt to deceive anybody about anything.
But, you might wish to send them some sort of "Letter of Tolerance" that could result in me getting banned again for disagreeing with you. Thank you for proving my point better than I ever could have.

Just to be clear, if this was a thread that condoned the condemnation of Wicca, or any other belief system, I would be writing the same words in defense of Wicca.

Close-Mindedness comes in many colors. And, as far as I can tell, there is no type of political organization, religious group or chic New Age thinking trend that is immune to taking on those colors.


[edit on 26-12-2009 by LASTofTheV8s]

[edit on 26-12-2009 by LASTofTheV8s]

Originally posted by davesidious

Harming nobody? They are perpetuating a culture of accepting opinion as fact if delivered by a preacher of their faith. That's DANGEROUS

I'm sorry man, but it just doesn't happen that way anymore. At least, not as much as it used to happen. Information is too easily available anymore. People have access to anything at anytime.
Has it happened? Of course. But, the same thing can be said for EVERY other religion out there, as well as EVERY other political view, AND even by the anti-Christian movement.
It's just the way it is. There is always going to be a leader trying to push his personal views onto his followers or peers.
But, this is not the majority. Christianity is like anything else. It has a gigantic number of different directions and flavors and paths that a person can travel down. And, all it takes is a little bit of studying, investigating and passion.
As a matter of fact, I always think it is funny, because in this respect, Christianity is soooooo similar to other religions around the world. Even religions with many deities. Because, if one looks deep enough, and has a mind that is open enough, a Christian could find so many different ways to interpret the Bible, teachings, history, statements, etc.
It was NEVER meant to be a cold, strict, intolerant, unmoving belief system.
It was meant to be, well, to be "Beautiful".
Like so many other ways that God has reached out to us.

and yet these common Christians don't think twice about keeping religion out of their kids' lives and letting the children pick their own religion - they're indoctrinated the second they leave the womb.

Are you saying that Atheists and Agnostics don't raise their children with the same beliefs that they have as the parents? Why would Christians be any different?

And not to mention the gay bashing performed by the churches of these common Christians, or their missionary organisations who trade water for condoms, and medicine for prayer. That's insidious behaviour that would make Jesus puke.

I don't go along with any of that, and my Christian friends don't either. Just like the fact that there are Muslims that don't demand "Death to the Infidels!!!!!!!!!!!" Ya know?
Just like the fact that there were Germans that were not Nazis.

It's not Christianity most non-Christians have a problem with, it's the churches Christians have let represent them. They're corrupt, they're despicable, and they exist solely to ensure they keep existing, believers and non-believers be damned. Literally.

I understand what you are saying. But, if you really look, even on this site, you would find threads about the ways Christianity, and even Catholicism is changing to accept more and more. And, yes, it is making lot's of people uncomfortable. And, they are not uncomfortable with change because they are bad. It is because they were taught one way, and now they are being told that they must relearn, and be open to being taught a new direction.
But, it is still happening.
That is change.

And, hating them is NOT going to help.

[edit on 26-12-2009 by LASTofTheV8s]

reply to post by Wallachian

I would like to take this opportunity to be honest.

In truth, I am partial to the view that most religions and spiritual views have some truth to them, and may actually have sprung from the same "well", so to speak.
This includes "Wicca".

God has many faces. Some of these reflect Nature, and some may reflect Science.

I am just a small man, and could not possibly hope to know why God is what God is.

But, I believe that if a person has found Him or Her in some way, that is a wonderful thing, and should be respected, and should be protected.

I feel that Darwinism does not threaten a love of God in any way. It is just another window.

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s


People who represent God are more prone to be believed by believers in said God than folks who don't represent said God. That's my argument. I don't care about atheists (even though there is no one who represents "no-God") or separating other religions, as they are all equally guilty of this decadent, lazy attitude.

Of course a Christian can interpret the bible in a million different ways - it's so vague, so stacked with analogy, so arcane in its wording, it could mean two different things to the same guy at the same time. Also some parts are just so horrifically disgusting a Christian has to re-interpret them otherwise they're praying to a God that would happily kill people for daring to be the way He made them. Lovely. What a mean guy.

At least when an atheist and/or agnostic (as one can be both) teaches their kids there is no god, they are operating on rational thought and logic. A Christian saying to their kid that there is a god is acting as rationally as when a parent tells their kid that Santa is real. There's as much evidence for Santa as there is any god mankind has ever dreamt up to fill his gaps of knowledge. To equate the two is disingenuous at best. One is teaching, the other is deceiving. (Hint: yours is the latter).

I'm not suggesting for a second that YOU are a gay-basher, or that you coerce needy people around the world to accept your faith or die, but it happens, and some of it is by people who call themselves Christians like you call yourself. And it happens a LOT by the very moderate Christians you said were nice folks. It's quite simple - the Catholic Church wouldn't exist if it wasn't for those folks. The missionary organisations wouldn't exist without those folks, either. Heck, the Church itself wouldn't. You can guess from my tone that I think the world without those organisations would be a better one.

I don't care if the Churches change to stop being so intolerant - the fact that they are being forced to, from external pressures, and not doing so from within as the societal zeitgeist changes, is the issue. They're not doing it because it's right, but because they have to. That's sick. That's unforgivable. Why on EARTH would these institutions have a problem with gay folks anyway? Or women as priests? Oh yeah - the bible tells the Church to kill them. Nice. Surely if Christianity, and the Bible, were so perfect, the Churches would constantly be the beacon for social betterment. Surely the Churches would have allowed women priests and gays in all along, as they are following the word of a supposedly-perfect Lord. But no, they're the last to change. I know, I know - imperfect beings implementing the word of a perfect Lord will create imperfect results, but then, if it is the fault of the people, then all institutions would be similarly out-dated and prejudiced. How is it that the Churches are worse than the rest of society? Oh yeah - because the Bible is taught as being the word of God, and so can't be challenged, even when it's teaching sickness and depraved behaviour upon our fellow man.

Something else that confuses me most is that churches exist at all. And that Christians pray together. That is in direct contradiction of the bible (Matthew 6:6). What's up with that? Do people need to be seen to be good Christians in order to actually be a good Christian? Is Church some way for folks to show off just how Christian they are? Does God only listen to you if you have a guy in a funny outfit standing in front of you handing out biscuits and booze? There is no rational explanation as to why Christians insist on letting anyone else know they are a Christian. Christianity is between the believer and God, not anyone else. And yet churches, and mega-churches, exist - all taking up valuable money that could be spent on the poor and needy. Disgusting.

Christianity seems to be more about hypocrisy than Jesus these days. Jesus taught about being meek, about keeping your religion to yourself, about helping others to do the right thing, not to expect reward in the next life. If he came back now he'd probably convert to Buddhism.

reply to post by davesidious
You made so many good points that I am not even going to try and address them all.
Plus, as I said, although I have studied, dabbled and communed with Christians, I am no expert.

I will say this:

I have a best friend that lives, usually, in Florida. He made his way to Christianity by way of a drug and alcohol habit that he could not beat.

Even though he is a brilliant person, with a psychology degree, years of related experience and a whole lot of pride in himself.

Well, the road that led to Christianity, turned out to also be the road that led to him cleaning up, and staying clean for the last 14 years.

He also took the "Christianity thing" very seriously, although he still remained the same laid-back, demented guy that made us all laugh for years and years.

But, at some point, regardless of the money and success he had accumulated while being clean, he stumbled across, what can be labeled as "a calling".

After doing some research, he discovered a growing problem in Kenya, Africa of all places. I guess the streets are filled with homeless kids that are constantly preyed upon, sold, killed, abused, etc.

My buddy just announced one day, that he was heading over there. Which he did. Out of the blue.

He took his savings, went to Africa and built an orphanage. Not through his church or anything. Just on his own. Just him and his wife.

He splits his time between Florida and Africa for the last 4 years.

He says he had to do this, because it was his mission as a "Christian".

And, the world is filled with Christians like my friend. These are the people I know. These are the people I stick up for. That I admire.



[edit on 26-12-2009 by LASTofTheV8s]