Stand WITH us for 9/11 Truth!

Originally posted by SPreston

posted by OmegaPoint
It is the right stand to take, and it is a powerful stand to take.

Join us, on the right side of history.

Thank you.

posted by GoodOlDave

That's a rather absurd statement to make. First of all, it's blatantly obvious you truthers are joining the fight with preconceived notions of coverups and conspiracies, so you aren't looking for the truth. You're looking to have your own particular conspiracy stories certified as being what actually happened, regardless of what the truth actually is. You *want* these conspiracies of yours to be true.

Second, you can hardly call yourself a movement since there are more theories on what the conspiracy is than there are recipies on how to cook an egg, One person says it's controlled demolitions, another says it's laser beams from outer space, a third says it's nukes in the basement, yet another says there wasn't even any planes at all, and you're all but getting into fistfights with each other over all this crap. I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY GUARANTEE that if, say, it turned out there really were controlled demolitions, the "Lasers from outer space" people will steadfastly refuse to accept it and continue to protest.

Who here says I'm incorrect, raise your hands.

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Sure Dave; you are incorrect. Since many of the families of the WTC victims are all working tirelessly for a real investigation into 9-11; I will raise my hands.

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Since many of the 503 WTC 1st responders who were ignored by the 9-11 Whitewash Commission are still eager to testify under oath to the explosions and demolition they witnessed; I will raise my hands.

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Since that would necessarily entail a new real investigation so they could testify; I will raise my hands.

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Since actual justice for wrongs committed in some strange way absolutely turns you off; I will raise my hands.

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Since absolutely nobody responsible for protecting America and Americans has been punished for incompetence or dereliction of duty or treason; I will raise my hands.

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Since many of those responsible for protecting America and Americans have been actually promoted and rewarded for incompetence or dereliction of duty or treason; I will raise my hands.

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Since the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY official fantasy tale is self-destructing so wonderfully; I will raise my hands.

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Since you just love to regurgitate stupid senseless strawman arguments such as laser beams from outer space again and again and again; I will raise my hands. Does that answer your question Dave?

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This has got to be the most childish and thoughtless post ever made by anyone anywhere.

Originally posted by Lillydale
HAND UP!!!!!!

While I agree on the second part, the first part is way off. Are you honestly claiming that all of these people you also say are not a movement or cohesive group are all also part of a cohesive group that all agree together that before any of this happened they already thought there was a conspiracy? You mean that "truthers" knew it was a conspiracy on September 10th?

Not in those words, exactly, but all right, yes. I've talked to many, many, MANY truthers who believe the 9/11 attack was some secret gov't plot, and the vast majority of them tend to subscribe to one or more *other* conspiracies, even before the 9/11 attack- the moon landing is faked, gov'tinsiders assasinated JFK, UFOs in hidden in area 51, etc. I've even met a few who thought AIDS was a gov't bioweapon released to kill all the black people in Africa.I didn't even know that particilar conspiracy was out there until one 9/11 truther introduced me to it.

It's blatantly obvious that such people have had a predisposition to believe in anti-establishment conspiracies all along, so of course they're goign to perceive the 9/11 attack was all a conspiracy too, and no amount of facts, information, or testimony will ever sway them becuase everythign that refutes their conspiracies is by default part of the conspiracy, too.

The proof is in the pudding- such people *could* have simply just accused Bush of knowing the terrorist attack was coming and he allowed it to occur...but NOOO that isn't sinister sounding enough, so they have to expand it out into some convoluted sounding story involving fake hijacked aircraft covering up controlled demolitions and cruise missiles perpetrated by armies of secret gov't saboteurs and disinformation agents in order to deliberately murder 3000 people to instigate a war against Iraq by framing Afghanistan. Some truthers have conjured up even more hard core evil plots involving murdering the passengers in some field somewhere, chopping up their bodies, and loading the body parts into cruise missiles in order to plant the DNA. I'm NOT making that one up, either.

It seems to me the 9/11 attack is less of an actual gov't plot and more of a Rorschach test that reflects the pre-existing anti-establishment mentality of the conspiracy theorists. Thus, you'll excuse me when I say I think the credibility of the truther movement is rather low.

Nice try - conflating the one thing, 9/11, with those other things.

What's disgraceful, is the one who is aware, having done the research, who has access to all the information average Joe public does not, and in light of all the information and all evidence, persists in defending the OS, while ridiculing those who have some very serious and valid questions, and observations.

If you've done the research, then you know what you defend, support, and stand guard for.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


nothing will work against him, he is just on here bashing each and everyone of us who want a new investigation, and constantly badgers us with his "profiling."

Please Dave, your constant vigilance is admirable, but with a story that has more holes in it then a strainer, it should be open for a new investigation, and have the new investigation figure out what is what. (NOT YOU)

this is a conspiracy site, some stuff seems outlandish, some aren't. (you seem to align everyone as the same here, when its not, your blind to this, and its ignorance we should deny, but you flood these threads with your meaningless posts and border-lined attacks on these concerned peoples character.)

i hate the way you classify us here who want a new investigation based on holes in the OS, yet you wont open your mind to one, NOT ONE, and constantly fill in the blanks based on your sole reality, and not others, YOU ARE SELFISH!

so, please stop trying to fill this thread with your rhetoric, and go do something else, like... get a life?

Mods if this was uncalled for, he had it coming to him.

OP you still have my support!!!

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

I've talked to many, many, MANY truthers who believe the 9/11 attack was some secret gov't plot, and the vast majority of them tend to subscribe to one or more *other* conspiracies

How many tens of thousands, thousands, hundreds of these truthers who believe the 9/11 attack was some secret gov't plot have you met again? Were you attending truther conventions and meeting truthers from all over the nation, or were they just from your local neighborhood?

Were you pretending to be a truther else why would they confide in you about their "other" conspiracy beliefs? It seems kind of strange because I have personally met quite a few truthers and the subjects of JFK or Oklahoma City or UFOs or moon landings never came up.

Everybody seemed more interested in discussing 911.

Some supporters of the 911 official storyline believe there are millions of pilots supporting the official storyline also. But since there are only about 312,000 aircraft wordwide, that millions of pilots seems rather dubious, doesn't it?

Originally posted by HennyPen
Some supporters of the 911 official storyline believe there are millions of pilots supporting the official storyline also. But since there are only about 312,000 aircraft wordwide, that millions of pilots seems rather dubious, doesn't it?

Hey, c'mon now, if Hani Hanjour can be a Boeing pilot than EVERYONE can be one too! Pilots one and all, hurrah!

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
What's disgraceful, is the one who is aware, having done the research, who has access to all the information average Joe public does not, and in light of all the information and all evidence, persists in defending the OS, while ridiculing those who have some very serious and valid questions, and observations.

Oh, rubbish. There is no such thing as "information the average Joe Public does not have access to" as far as the conspiracy theorists are concerned. Every single tidbit the truthers are throwing around originated from one or more 9/11 conspiracy websites that every grandmother and every ten year old can access, and I know that's the case becuase every single truther sooner or later will post a link to one of these websites so we can learn, "the truth". That's the entire problem, right there- these damned fool conspiracy sites are putting out all this paranoid rubbish in order to sell their knick-knacks, and all these anti-establishment "alternatives" who think the gov't is constantly plotting to kill us all are naturally lapping it up like kittens lapping up milk.

Do you honestly and truly believe characters like Dylan Avery has any secret access to sensitive information that the rest of the public doesn't? Sheesh, the guy is a college student making internet flicks in his dorm room. Wake up!

Originally posted by HennyPen
How many tens of thousands, thousands, hundreds of these truthers who believe the 9/11 attack was some secret gov't plot have you met again? Were you attending truther conventions and meeting truthers from all over the nation, or were they just from your local neighborhood?

Let's see...in the past seven years since I started talking to you people, I've been on maybe five different 9/11 conspiracy discussion boards, and I swapped posts with perhaps five or six conspiracy theorists on each board, plus an average of three 9/11 conspiracy theorists who barged into the other political discussion boards I've been on, I'd say I've swapped posts with between 25 and 30 conspiracy theorists. I think that's a sufficient sampling, don't you?

I have never met them in the flesh, but I have been looking for them. Back in 2005 on the fourth anniverary I went to ground zero in NYC specifically to hunt down a 9/11 conspiracy theorist rally I heard tell was going to materialize there, but didn't see a single one. Where the heck are they all hiding?

Were you pretending to be a truther else why would they confide in you about their "other" conspiracy beliefs?

No, actually, the majority of them came across like religious zealots pushing out their conspiracies in the hopes they were goign to convert me. A few of them were arguing about *other* conspiracies they subscribed to I.E. the moon landing had been faked or the CIA assassinated JFK, and the discussion wandered into 9/11, but in most cases it was the other way around. These aren't individual conspiracies to them, but the latest conspiracy in a long chain of interconnected conspiracies pulled off by the same organization to fulfill some master plan I.E. the US gov't, the Jewish World Order, Skull and Bones, or whatever. They use one to "prove" the existence of the other.

As soon as someone says "Read the Northwoods report and you'll see what the gov't is capable of doing", you'll know right away you're talking to someone who believes in serial conspiracies. It doesn't make an iota of difference to them that it was forty years ago and everyone remotely connected to Northwoods is either dead or retired now.

It seems kind of strange because I have personally met quite a few truthers and the subjects of JFK or Oklahoma City or UFOs or moon landings never came up.

That's specifically becuase you met them in person, so you only had the chance to have only a brief conversation with them. Talk to them for several days straight and give them time for their minds to wander.

Some supporters of the 911 official storyline believe there are millions of pilots supporting the official storyline also. But since there are only about 312,000 aircraft wordwide, that millions of pilots seems rather dubious, doesn't it?

The entire story behind the 9/11 conspiracy as it's being explained to us by the conspiracy theorists are dubious. For one thing, if they...whoever the "they" are...went to all these absurd lengths to stage a false flag operation on 9/11, then why didn't they plant WMD in Iraq to "prove" to the world we had justification to invade? Sneaking a spare nuke into Iraq to "find" would have been a heck of a lot easier than rigging controlled demolitions in an occupied building, after all.

Originally posted by ugie1028
this is a conspiracy site, some stuff seems outlandish, some aren't. (you seem to align everyone as the same here, when its not, your blind to this, and its ignorance we should deny, but you flood these threads with your meaningless posts and border-lined attacks on these concerned peoples character.)

On the contrary, the fact that you conspiracy people are all different is one of the major debate points I keep bringing up. None of you seem to believe in the same conspiracy and you're all but getting into fistfights with each other over what the "secret conspiracy" actually is.

Case in point- According to a number of posters here (I.E. Bonez) they say we ought to ignore the fringe elements in the 9/11 truther movement who keep bringing up all this absurd nonsense about cruise missiles, planted aircraft wreckage, faked crash sites, etc etc etc...which I'm sure you know includes you...becuase you're falsely associating yourselves with the serious researchers and you're making them look like a bunch of lunatics.

So the question is, why should I take you seriously when your fellow truthers here aren't even taking you seriously?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by ugie1028
this is a conspiracy site, some stuff seems outlandish, some aren't. (you seem to align everyone as the same here, when its not, your blind to this, and its ignorance we should deny, but you flood these threads with your meaningless posts and border-lined attacks on these concerned peoples character.)

On the contrary, the fact that you conspiracy people are all different is one of the major debate points I keep bringing up. None of you seem to believe in the same conspiracy and you're all but getting into fistfights with each other over what the "secret conspiracy" actually is.

Case in point- According to a number of posters here (I.E. Bonez) they say we ought to ignore the fringe elements in the 9/11 truther movement who keep bringing up all this absurd nonsense about cruise missiles, planted aircraft wreckage, faked crash sites, etc etc etc...which I'm sure you know includes you...becuase you're falsely associating yourselves with the serious researchers and you're making them look like a bunch of lunatics.

So the question is, why should I take you seriously when your fellow truthers here aren't even taking you seriously?

Seems your trying hard to convince us that 911 happened just like the commision reports says , I mean really trying here.... or is it just maybe your trying to convince yourself and cant see though all the lies?

Originally posted by Reevster

Seems your trying hard to convince us that 911 happened just like the commision reports says , I mean really trying here.... or is it just maybe your trying to convince yourself and cant see though all the lies?

For once, just once, will you PLEEEEESE stop mindlessly quoting the rhetoric these conspiracy web sites are spoon feeding you and think critically for yourselves, for a change?

My position has never wavered- any gov't that can't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane survivors in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels will be simply incapable of orchestrating any of these astoundingly complex conspiracies involving perfectly aimed airplane strikes covering up perfectly concealed controlled demolitions, with the sheer perfection of organization and synchronization that rivals an act of god and all without leaving a microbe of evidence behind. It simply can't. If they tried, they'd only [censored] it up. Don't even go there.

As for conspiracies, I do believe there is a conspiracy, namely, that the gov't had let us down in preventing and dealing with the attack through incompetence and bungling, and they're tryign to cover up just how badly the incompetence and bungling was. The reason for the conspiracy is obvious- noone wants to admit they're incompetent and a bungler, particularly when their incompetence and bungling led to 3,000 deaths. If we ever found out some idiot beaurocrat had a warning of an imminent terrorist strike lying forgotten beneath an old pizza box in their office, we'd want that guy to hang.

The problem for YOU is, I can give you dumptruck loads of examples of gov't incompetence and bungling. Can you give me even *one* example where anyone ever was able to plant controlled demolitions in an occupied building without anyone noticing? No, you can not. You people certainly aren't stupid, far from it. Most of you are quite intelligent and acticulate. You're simply not getting all the facts because you're getting all your facts from those damned fool conspiracy web sites trying to get you all paranoid so that you'll buy their books, DVDs, T-shirts, etc.

I can't can't make it any more clearer than this.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by GoodOlDave]

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Join with us Dave, it's the right thing to do. Join with us, and be on the right side of history.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

It is the right stand to take, and it is a powerful stand to take.

Join us, on the right side of history.

Thank you.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


The morning of 9/11, I was working. I have no access to the media where I work, but heard from others that do.
The rest of the day I was out of the office delivering mail. As soon as I heard about the 2nd plane, I knew it was a black op. It was logical deduction. How could the most powerful country be attacked not once, not twice, not three times, but four times, especially the pentagon.;and the NSA, CIA, Norad and god knows what other secret a agencies doing absolutely nothing?

Why is it so hard to believe that this government has advanced technology we can't even dream of? We most likely never know how it all was done.

Why is it so hard to believe, that the people in power do not give a damn about "The people"? Just take a look around you, the ptb do not care. People are suffering every moment of everyday and they just keep spending on everything but necessities like health care.

I am grateful for this forum and everyone who keeps on exposing the Cheney/Bush criminals. I will never stop trying.

Regarding the OP, what patriotic American would NOT want to stand with those seeking the truth? I will, and I will proclaim it to anyone. I stand with those seeking the truth, the WHOLE truth, regardless of where it takes you.

I will not stand with anyone who believes that ONLY "truthers" seek the truth. I think there are problems with the collection of evidence that is [somewhat errantly] identified as the OS. I have questions, still, after all this time.

If we make assumptions and then discard all evidence that is contrary to those assumptions, that methodology is contrary to the scientific process. We should be making a hypothesis, and then testing that to see if it holds water. I'm sick to death of "twoofer", "duh-bunker", "disinfo agent", "shill", even "truther", and "Whitewash Commission". These are all labels that infer derision for a person's opinion.

Also note that as with the "truth" movement wherein there are various factions that support differing degrees of conspiracy, likewise it is a misnomer and a disservice to us all to try to cubbyhole anyone who disagrees with the theory of the day as being a supporter of the OS -- followed usually by an overused proclaimation to "WAKE UP!!"

I will persue the truth on my own. When I am so fortunate as to discover others who can employ critical thinking and sift through the abundance of data concerning 9/11, then I will align with them, regardless of their "side". I think we can make great strides by weeding out -- at least between us here in ATS -- the more extreme theories, such as the NPT/hologram in regard to the twin towers. Or can we not all agree upon even that???

From there? TAKE the compilations attributed to the OS, and find and vet points where it falls down and then seek evidence that explains it better. We will not find proof, none of us, and thus we should not characterize it as such. We may, though, together, someday, find the TRUTH, even if that truth................. no........ ESPECIALLY if that truth leads us away from our hypothesis.

Do you treasure the absolute truth more than the confict, the debates, the game? I do.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
The problem for YOU is, I can give you dumptruck loads of examples of gov't incompetence and bungling.

Yes, you can. You can show plenty of times when the government decided to act slowly, poorly, or without funding. I can show you plenty of times that he government pulls off huge tasks that wants to. Our VA, Moon Landings, Disease research, etc. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.
[quite] Can you give me even *one* example where anyone ever was able to plant controlled demolitions in an occupied building without anyone noticing?

Ummmm...huh? Is it normal, safe, or legal to do such a thing? No. No. No.

I cannot help but imagine that it is not something that happens on a regular basis. In fact, I will be bold enough to say that this is the sort of thing that may have only occurred once, if at all.

Have their been times when the government acted well after a natural disaster? YES. Katrina is not the standard, sorry. Natural disasters happen and the response may not always be perfect but you have a bad one and some good ones. How many times has 9/11 happened?

No, you can not. You people certainly aren't stupid, far from it. Most of you are quite intelligent and acticulate.

Wow, thanks. Now 3000 dead Americans can rest knowing that no matter who killed them and why, you think we are smart!

You're simply not getting all the facts because you're getting all your facts from those damned fool conspiracy web sites trying to get you all paranoid so that you'll buy their books, DVDs, T-shirts, etc.

I can't can't make it any more clearer than this.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by GoodOlDave]

You have all the facts? I have been looking for you. I have many many questions for you. I am more than ready to stop believing in this conspiracy. Can you answer some things for me?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

I've talked to many, many, MANY truthers who believe the 9/11 attack was some secret gov't plot, and the vast majority of them tend to subscribe to one or more *other* conspiracies

and then....

I'd say I've swapped posts with between 25 and 30 conspiracy theorists. I think that's a sufficient sampling, don't you?

How many relatives do you have? How many friends do you have? How many people would it take to make an average living room seem crowded to you?

I am just trying to understand why 2 dozen people seems like many many many many many to you.

Originally posted by hypattia
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

The morning of 9/11, I was working. I have no access to the media where I work, but heard from others that do.
The rest of the day I was out of the office delivering mail. As soon as I heard about the 2nd plane, I knew it was a black op. It was logical deduction. How could the most powerful country be attacked not once, not twice, not three times, but four times, especially the pentagon.;and the NSA, CIA, Norad and god knows what other secret a agencies doing absolutely nothing?

Why is it so hard to believe that this government has advanced technology we can't even dream of? We most likely never know how it all was done.

Well, as we can see they certainly had the motive, and the VISION for it..

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor".

Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century
September, 2000

Project For A New American Century

GoodOlDave's Master

Philip D. Zelikow, Chief 9/11 Master Mythmaker as the Bush appointed Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission.

The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to [the] notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.'

Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."

An act of catastrophic terrorism that killed thousands or tens of thousands of people and/or disrupted the necessities of life for hundreds of thousands, or even millions, would be a watershed event in America's history.

It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented for peacetime and undermine Americans' fundamental sense of security within their own borders in a manner akin to the 1949 Soviet atomic bomb test, or perhaps even worse.

Constitutional liberties would be challenged as the United States sought to protect itself from further attacks by pressing against allowable limits in surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects, and the use of deadly force. More violence would follow, either as other terrorists seek to imitate this great "success" or as the United States strikes out at those considered responsible.

Like Pearl Harbor, such an event would divide our past and future into a "before" and "after."

The effort and resources we devote to averting or containing this threat now, in the "before" period, will seem woeful, even pathetic, when compared to what will happen "after."

Philip D. Zelikow

www.ksg.harvard.edu...

On the World Trade Center

"... if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed even in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America's fundamental sense of security..Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with.."

~ Philip Zelikow, pre-9/11

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

Listen to him, at the 3:50 mark, through 4:44..

And as we know, everything and the wars still going on, almost a decade later, would not and could not have occured absent that "New Pearl Harbor".
And so 9/11 Truth is also about working to unravell their bullshiit, perpetrated in the name of security as a sole result of 9/11.

No "oh NOOO" they would never actually go ahead and DO such a thing or MAKE it happened on purpose, NEVER!

A "Government Plot"..?!! That would be INSANE, right? Not.



[edit on 4-10-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by hypattia
The morning of 9/11, I was working. I have no access to the media where I work, but heard from others that do.
The rest of the day I was out of the office delivering mail. As soon as I heard about the 2nd plane, I knew it was a black op. It was logical deduction. How could the most powerful country be attacked not once, not twice, not three times, but four times, especially the pentagon.;and the NSA, CIA, Norad and god knows what other secret a agencies doing absolutely nothing?

Now, you see? This is EXACTLY my point, right there. If people have a predisposition to believe in secret gov't conspiracies regardless of how outlandish they sound, then they're naturally going to perceive the 9/11 attack was likewise a secret gov't conspiracy, and they're going to do al they can to "prove" conspiracy regardless of what the facts actually are. I'm sorry, but in the rest of the world, we know muslim terrorists don't like us, we know muslim terrorists will murder innocent people, we know muslim terrorists have a history of hijacking aircraft, and we know muslim terrorists have a history of committing suicide attacks. On the other hand, there is *no* history whatsoever of anyone ever being able to successfully plant controlled demolitions in a heavily occupied building without anyone noticing. You're conjuring up with THAT bit all on your own.

One of the reasons why they released the 9/11 commission report is to explain how the hijackers were able to do what they did. It specifically addresses how our myriad agencies were slipping on banana peels during 9/11- the failures of NORAD and the FAA, the break downs in communication, the hoarding of information between intelligence departments, etc. You may not accept the answers you're given, but you would at least have had an answer, so you wouldn't need to come to these forums and ask things like, "How could the most powerful country be attacked not once, not twice, not three times, but four times, especially the pentagon.;and the NSA, CIA, Norad and god knows what other secret a agencies doing absolutely nothing?" that were already answered seven years ago.

Only to the truthers does it make logical sense to actively avoid looking at information specific to the 9/11 attack.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Yes, you can. You can show plenty of times when the government decided to act slowly, poorly, or without funding. I can show you plenty of times that he government pulls off huge tasks that wants to. Our VA, Moon Landings, Disease research, etc. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

Apples and oranges is right. People working to achieve the moon landings, disease research, etc., were all united under the understanding they were trying to achieve a common goal. In the cases of the manhattan project, they may not necessarily have understood or were told what it was they were doing, but they all knew they were working on something to help destroy Germany/Japan. Not that it matters, becuase every single one of them immediately understood what they were working on, once the bomb was dropped. Whoever the guy was who was ordered to paint that cruise missile to look like a passenger jet would have immediately understood what it was for, as well.

On the other hand, a person would need to be as stupid as a bag of hammers to not understand that planting secret controlled demolitions in a heavily occupied building was goign to get a lot of innocent people killed. What sort of propaganda would be needed to even convince thousands of co-conspirators that blowing up the WTC was necessary to begin with is beyond me.

Yoru examples do not even remotely support your argument.

Wow, thanks. Now 3000 dead Americans can rest knowing that no matter who killed them and why, you think we are smart!

Do not patronize me. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not some sick in the head ghoul who thinks it's funny to dance in the blood of other people for your own personal agenda. To me, these 9/11 conspiracy speculations are a kissing cousin to those disgusting jerks who make jokes about the Jews in Auschwitz being so clean because they "make such good soap".

You forget that it's your fellow truthers, not me, who speculate that between the remote controlled aircraft, cruise missiles, faked crash sites, "hijackers are alive", "no planes", mysterious pre-9/11 evacuations of all the Jews, Masons, politicians, etc, noone actually died on 9/11 *at all*. I don't even need to mention all those the wacky claims of lasers from outer space, holograms, and nukes in the basement, do I?

Hey Dave, what are your thoughts on the Zelikow post I made there, did you see it..?

History itself, as a type of trail, points to a "government plot", you can see that much right. It's not absolute proof, but it's very suggestive and DAMN SUSPICIOUS, don't you think? What do you honestly think about it, and please carefully review the Zelikow post above. Thanks for the feedback.