Why I allege that a £1.32bn UK betting corporation literally stole £10s of millions from it's cus

Firstly may I wish you all a super weekend.

I am going to reveal a further media matter soon which I think is yet another absolute scandal, but I have postponed this, because I feel the allegations I have made against the Daily Mail newspaper, of corporate incitement to murder - in the Conspiracy Thread - are so very serious that I need to give you time to digest that matter first.

Hence today I give you the betting scandal. It's really saddening because it is a known fact that people with gambling addictions or vast gambling debts have ended up taking their own lives, and despite being in this knowledge, the story is about methods I allege that were employed to illegally increase the company's margin or 'rake'. TheDailyPlanet is hoping to now undertake research by collecting information from gamblers, to ascertain whether the underhand tactics are still being deployed throughout the UK.

Later, I will tell you about possible serious foul play by a major London casino group.


........................................................

DID WILLIAM HILL BOOKMAKERS, OF THE UK, LITERALLY STEAL
TENS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS FROM THEIR CUSTOMERS,
YEAR AFTER YEAR?





Many years back, I developed a slight addiction to a fruit machine in a local cafe - this was about 15/16 years ago, and the cafe is still there and popular despite many new cafes opening up, however the old machines are not there anymore. I lost over a period of time hundreds of pounds, however at the end of the day I did not feel ripped off. The machine in question, way back, used to have a Super Repeater Jackpot that would trigger at random, the entire machine would brightly light up, luscious music sounds would ouse from the fruit machine's speakers, and then it was grab every quid that you could get. You could go from normal play, to suddenly winning £36 or more.

Unfortunately, back then, the machines would dispense tokens as well as cash, however later on the machine was re-programmed to pay out cash only. When the XS Super Repeater Jackpot would trigger, you hear the sounds, the lamps would then cascade up the machine, and you would actually get a real endorphin hit in the brain. The machine was set to pay out at 92%, much higher than most machines are run today. As I said, overall I lost money, but I wasn't ripped off. Occasionally the XS would repeat so many times that the machine would run out of money - so you had times where you left with a real profit, having spoken to the Manager of the cafe, requesting the balance of funds !

Years later, I got involved with other forms of gambling. I would bet at the bookmakers on short odds horses, sometimes I'd win, but it would always go wrong in the end - and you'd always end up with pretty much nothing!

And then I got into casino gambling, and later - in the course of this thread, I will make a further post with my allegations of foul play by a London casino, plus detail the evening in Poland where sweat was pouring off the Casino Manager's forehead, as vast sums were being won by a gentleman on a table near mine.

In 2002, bookmakers throughtout the UK introduced Fixed Odds Betting Terminals (FOBTs) - machines developed by companies such as Inspired Gaming, Global Draw and Cyberview. The game played most often on these machines, as I did, is Roulette (French version, labelled as reliant on totally random number generation from an external party).

I still had slight inclination towards gambling back then (now in 2009 I will never have a gambling problem again) and I decided to play on these machines myself with initially small sums. What a mistake! Initially, I would win far more often than lose, and I would walk away from 'Coral' with sums like £30 - £40 profit on each visit.

Then, I started to visit the local William Hill Bookmakers again, having not been there for years (it used to be called 'H&K Commissions' but William Hill bought this company out), since they too had a F.O.B.T. machine, and the rules governing the gameplay were exactly the same, it just had different graphics.

At the time, being in the grip of quite a serious gambling addiction, I was regularly frequenting both Coral and William Hill. When I went to Coral, now I was winning far less often, however it was still different and far worse at William Hill. At William Hill, when I played the machines (hundreds of times in total at both bookmakers), I was FAR more likely to lose, and each time I lost I was losing more. I could not understand this, because if I had made only 10 visits to each bookmaker, it would be insufficient data to make a claim that there was a problem with the randomness, but with hundreds of visits, my worst suspicions had been proven, right in front of my very eyes.


[edit on 18-9-2009 by TheDailyPlanet]

[edit on 18-9-2009 by TheDailyPlanet]

I should inform you that this tale is recounting from over three years ago, I have not seriously gambled or had a gambling problem since then. Whether or not the practises I describe are still going on, I do not know, I don't know if the situation has improved or deteriorated further to engulf other organisations, but I intend to find out.

The margin on these machines for roulette is meant to work out at 2.7% on each £ of turnover played through the machine. At both William Hill and Coral there was a sign saying that the outcome of play is independently determined by an external random number generator company.
However, I soon discovered that the William Hill was running on a margin of around 10% on each £ of turnover (after many, many visits) and I would begin to walk out with a profit extremely rarely.

And here is the allegation:- When you pressed "PLAY" having selected your bets using the touchscreen, a graphic would appear of the spinning roulette wheel. Now normally I used to bet on "Even chances", and "Dozens" and after many cumulative visits you should see a 50-50 pattern, notwithstanding the occasional occurence of "Zero". Early on at William Hill, I noticed that occasionally, having placed a bet, there might be just a slight additional delay, the screen would spin the wheel, and then suddenly you'd see the roulette wheel "jerk" about 1/2 cm on the screen, about 10 seconds before the ball finally landed. And do you know what? The instances of this occuring happened more and more, and it appeared the William Hill margin was increasing more and more, until it appeared to be above 10%. On the notice they state that the margin is 2.7%. With ONE exception, EVERY time you saw the screen jerk - you would know, that bet would lose. And I think - the screen "jerk" was when the outcome of the bet was being altered, effectively a "cheat to take" system. I saw the screen jerk on vast numbers of occasions. Often, very frustratingly you'd be playing, you'd be winning, and then the wheel would spin - and the "screen jerk" would put an end to your winning streak. I must have seen this visual clue hundreds of times, it would occur something like once every 20 spins, on occasion it would be switched off, and therefore you'd lose slower, but more often than not it was switched on - certainly when I was playing the machines!

William Hill has approximately 2,300 betting offices. The sum I lost at William Hill which I believe was stolen from me was about £10,000 I believe thousands of other players may have been robbed in betting offices across the land. I do not deny that gambling is a mug's game, and I am no mug anymore - it's fool's gold, you do lose. However, in the 3 years of play by me, the machines gave every indication of being cranky, and of being rigged.

Three questions

1. If William Hill acted illegally, why don't you report them to the police or sue them for your lost winnings?

2. If you believed there was a problem with the machines, why did you still play them? Why didn't you just play the Coral machines?

3. Is it wise to make claims against such a large organisation on public forum?

So basically you had a serious gambling addiction and lost lots of money - so it's all somebody else's fault ........

You know what they say about a fool and his money ......

btw many yeas ago I used to own a pub, which had a fruit machine in it. Often people would play it all night long. But not win a big 'repeat' jackpot. Knowing this I would then go on the machine after closing time. And win the jackpot. next day the customers would be back sure the machine was due to pay out soon .....

Yes, I'm evil, I know .....

Originally posted by lightchild
Three questions

1. If William Hill acted illegally, why don't you report them to the police or sue them for your lost winnings?

2. If you believed there was a problem with the machines, why did you still play them? Why didn't you just play the Coral machines?

3. Is it wise to make claims against such a large organisation on public forum?

In answer to point one, as a lone individual, I do not have proof, such as footage of the screen jerk and subsequent 99% guaranteed lose result.

Your second point - I could not get my head around the fact that a massive corporation would actually rig the machines, rather than leave them to give proper pseudo-random results. As I lost so much at William Hill, I was regularly gripped by a desire that I wanted to win it all back; I would return and lose money to try to win back the money that I had lost, or on occasions, I believe, had stolen from me.

In respect of my wisdom in making claims against such a large organisation, I believe the truth has got to be told, and these experiences actually really happened to me. The forum is a popular frequented site, and it is a place to effectively bring these allegations out into the open, rather than keep them suppressed.

reply to post by TheDailyPlanet


I'm sure you are correct. I find that all corporations rip off their customers one way or another. Only thing you could do is compain to the gaming commission. They may or may not go test the machines. Even if they do they probably have away to hide it. Other than that I would just chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Have to laugh as I think about it. I can imagine them saying "here comes The Daily Planet, switch on the overide".

Well I'm no addict, but I'm waiting on £37,000 and £20,000 bets this weekend, football bets only and I'm up about £200 this year

Playing the machines is a mugs game mate, and you sound like you had a bad time with them, hopefully learned your lesson, although it may have cost a fortune

As for them rigging the machine, it's possible, video casino machines are bad



[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pockets]

Originally posted by Pockets
Well I'm no addict, but I'm waiting on £37,000 and £20,000 bets this weekend, football bets only and I'm up about £200 this year

Playing the machines is a mugs game mate, and you sound like you had a bad time with them, hopefully learned your lesson, although it may have cost a fortune

As for them rigging the machine, it's possible, video casino machines are bad

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pockets]

Good luck with your £57,000 worth of bets - wow.

Re you mentioned video casino machines are bad, implying rigging - this is illegal, it's corruption ! In 2009, there are still far too many organisations bogged by corruption !

I will tell you about the rigged casino later - hopefully today - when I have time to recount the tale (in this thread).

reply to post by TheDailyPlanet


I don't dispute the legality at all, was just my opinion that the machines can be rigged

Well Sunderland let me down, I win nothing

better luck next week

I'll tell you one thing Ive learnt the "hard way" over the last 3 years.

Random Loot Is Random.

The allegation was published by us on the internet of up to many, many millions of pounds of theft by this company - due to the fact that a loss would occur 99% of the times subsequent to a "screen flick" as detailed earlier, and the rig was switched on for me, on at least 70% of visits, rendering the bookmaker a margin on each pound of turnover of in excess of 10% on £10,000s of bets being placed through their cranky machines.

TheDailyPlanet thinks it is very likely that the rig was being deployed in other shops too - to be able to say conclusively that there was chain-wide deployment of this random data adjustment technique is not yet possible. The rigging of the electronic terminals, interestingly, did not appear to be automated - for example many occasions, a larger bet was placed and the delay would be a few seconds longer presumably whilst the bet gets debated, should they wish - the screen flicks, and ten seconds later you 99% guaranteed to lose your bet. If this was being applied in this manner across all their shops, to a significant percentage of their customers, on a significant percentage of their visits, then the cumulative thefts by the company could be in excess of £100million.

However, this article has been put together with just my experiences, recounted to you as the author. Really, I think the matter should be taken further, because I have heard that there have been people who have commited suicide due to gambling addictions, and if some of them were actually CHEATED out of their money, then this is an outrage.

More evidence required on this matter - it would need the testimony of more gamblers who think that they have fallen prey to foul play - particularly if there was compelling evidence such as I saw - the fact that if the screen changed, and the roulette wheel suddenly skipped 1/2cm, then, the roulette wheel would continue spinning for about 10 seconds more, and then land in a number's chute that was guaranteed to be a loser 99% of the time.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by TheDailyPlanet]

Regarding whether or not F.O.B.T.s (the roulette gambling terminals) are rigged - I have found notes from April 2005:-

"I was surprised around April '05, when one day the 'QuickDraw' (Coral machine) produced a run of TWELVE 3rd Dozens in a ROW. The following day the William Hill (ITBOX) machine produced a consecutive run of EIGHT 3rd Dozens in a row. All those bets I was betting on 1st and 2nd dozens - lost about £300. (All in the space of 2 days!)

Whilst these events made me extremely upset & suspicious of the game being rigged, it was not until a few months later that I noticed something extremely worrying about the William Hill machines..

At both Coral and William Hill, (and I believe all other bookmakers), the pseudo-random result of the roulette wheel is, it is claimed, drawn by an independent third-party computer and sent down the internet to the machine which then determines if your bet was won or lost. Whilst playing at William Hill, I would regularly notice that on some bets, if you look at the graphic of the spinning wheel carefully, suddenly it would jerk about a centimetre or so, or sometimes more. A few seconds later the ball would land. Now I was only betting on Reds / Blacks, and Column Thirds, but whenever I saw this "screen jerk", I promise you, about 99 times out of 100 the bet would be lost. It suggested to me that the result was being changed. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon occuring? Why would a bookmaker want to MAKE IT LOOK like a machine was cheating - possibly the software contractor was unhappy so left a clue.

It would be very sad if these companies are all cheating. If they did not cheat, and just used the 2.7% margin from the addition of an additional number (0), then they would still make this percentage, and profits can still be high with high turnover. But the result of what I believe is rigging is that I used to have to go to the cash machine to put in another £100+, sometimes several times over, (because I was a bad loser!) So the bookies WOULD have been making more money out of me by instigating rigging. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has noticed this "screen-jerk" phenomenon occuring, at William Hill or others.."

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Items Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:31 am

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What the hell, i'ts a good debatable thread!

Yes I have noticed the screen jerk and yes, it always occurs when I am not gonna win.

Ergo, change machine, screen jerk is not apparent and win/lose comes back in the equation.

I have NEVER won after someone has raped the m/c before me! EVER! anything above a £200 bank collected and the m/c goes on suck.

I have ALWAYS won, when someone else is losing money hand over fist next to me, by betting smaller amounts than them on different numbers.

You can make moneyfrom these, just not everytime!

As for numbers repeating, it happens more than in a casino but not enough to make a profit from,

Conclusion? they are rigged, but just like AWP's you can shark and as long as you are not too greedy and bet sensibly you can win...................just like AWP's!

...........................................................................................


That was 2006, here we are in 2009 - is it still going on? (I am no longer a gambler)

THE GRAND CASINO DE MONACO

In 2005, I won a holiday to Monaco, courtesy of lastminute.com online casino. I was awarded approximately £1,000 of treats - a flight on British Airways with free booze to Nice - free return ticket helicopter transfer (just me and the pilot in the helicopter) from Nice to Monaco (Just upon liftoff, for just a second, I felt like the richest man in the world, and it was an amazing feeling!)

I was given accomodation in the 4 star hotel, the Meridian, costing over 200 euros per night, and I was also given £250 spending money. I was very short of money at the time, I was relying on the £250 spending money, and unfortunately I had to wait a day before the cheque cleared, and before I could withdraw it from a Monaco cash machine.

The cheque cleared, and I hit the Monaco casinos. I went to the first casino that I could find, and quickly encountered a losing streak - I played the machines, and played for a little while on the real roulette wheels, and, after a couple of hours, I had got down to my last 5 euros.

So there I was, in the place renounded for its riches, and it's billionaire residents such as Sir Phillip Green, and I had just 5 euros to my name!

So I went to another casino, and decided to play my "system" and only take big risks where necessary (I would have to take risks because I was down to my last 5 euros!)

I placed 5 euros into the roulette machine, all bet on second dozen, pulled the lever, and second dozen came in, and I emptied the 15 euros from the machine. I then went to another machine, and put in the 15 euros which I had just won, on an even chances, placed a few further bets, and emptied the machine of approximately 50 euros.

I then took the 50 euros and exchanged it for tokens for the electronic terminals which surrounded a glass-domed roulette wheel in the centre, and I placed my bets for about half an hour, now on a real winning streak (having started with 5 euros)

I successfully bet my way up to a balance of 175 euros, and according to my system there was a strong case for placing a "Red" bet. So I placed something like a 30 euro bet, and then a reasoned compulsion occupied my mind - I thought 175 euros is not a great deal to have to spend in Monaco with the prices being what they were - I would have to risk it. So I bet the lot, 175 on Red, and, it came in... I now had 350 euros.

I was feeling much happier by now, went to a bar to have a cup of coffee, and then decided it was time.. I was going to visit the Grand Casino de Monaco. The other casinos had been free entry, but the Grand Casino had an admission charge of something like 5 euros. I gladly payed, walked through opulent corriders, and through impressive doors, which had the air of enormous riches, and entered the casino gaming hall.

I went straight to one of the roulette wheels, and sat down in one of the seats. I noticed that the croupier and the assistants etc. were all very very smart, they were in suits, ties etc.. It truly was like something out of a James Bond movie.

I purchased chips with my 350 euros, and begun to play. I was betting between 30 euros and 100 euros each bet. One player gave me a slightly funny look, and someone else mumbled something about the fact that I was being allowed to play such low stakes on a "high roller's table". I apologised and said I could go if they wish, but the 'pit boss' said no it's absolutely fine, and then all the players accepted me. I thought the bets being placed all around me, every two or three minutes or so, was absolutely vast. A typical bet would be 2,000 euros on a colour, or a plastering of chips all over the table, for example 100 euros on 20 different numbers. By this stage, I had successfully gambled up to about 750 euros (having earlier in the day been down to 5!)

Then, a new player emerged - he was playing two tables simultaneously. He placed 10,000 euros on one of the 'dozen' bets, and seconds later, he placed another 10,000 euros on a dozen bet on the other table. The "dozen" bet pays 2-1 if won, so in this case if both tables had "come in" for him, he would have received 60,000 euros for those bets.

He certainly didn't seem to be doing that well poor chap. Every 2/3 minutes, he would place another 10,000 euros on one of the dozens, and many of the bets I saw he was losing.

By this stage, I had noticed that players were at times leaving their seats, and wandering off to a room at the right. I had a look in this room, and there was the most delicious and inviting food on offer that I had ever seen in my life. The dining room was serving free dinners, a delicious selection of foods were available. There was free fine, free desserts, strawberries, venison, roast this and that.. truly fine foods, beautifully prepared and cooked, the finest foods you could imagine. I enquired and was told if I was a player, I too could be given such a free meal (which elsewhere might have cost a lot).

So I enquired to the casino staff whether they could kindly let me have the complimentary banquet. The person went up to the casino manager and asked, and the casino manager took quite a while to decide, and then he said yes.

I continued to bet, and by this stage had accumulated approximately 1,150 euros. There, I thought, that's brilliant, I clawed back my earlier losses, and I've got more, and what's more, I thought, my system's working!

I was on a real high, and the offer of free food and wine was irresistible. I sat myself down, and a waiter came up to the table, and said I could have anything I liked, what would I like. I asked for a bottle of Red wine, and the food itself I cannot quite remember what I had, but it was a lovely meal I can assure you! During my meal, one person came up to me, and said he was a millionaire, but was very sorry he had just lost some money, would I help him with 25 euros so he could get home etc? I said yes, and helped him out. I thanked one member of staff after the meal saying it was probably the best meal I had ever had in my life.

But by now, I was drunk.

I had drunk the whole bottle of wine, except for the glass I had given to the unlucky punter who had come up to me.

I returned to the table where I had been betting earlier, sat down again, and resumed play.

The story continues tommorow... How I sat next to a Monaco man who won 250,000 euros in 15 minutes.

[edit on 23-9-2009 by TheDailyPlanet]

HOW I SAW MAN WIN 250,000 EUROS IN MONACO CASINO - AND FORTUNE WON IN CASINO IN POLAND.

(sorry for delay in posting)



I returned to the roulette table with my circa 1,150 euros, and sat down, admiring the opulent decor of the casino. And I continued to bet, but kept losing my place in my 'system', and taking non-systematic risks at regular intervals due to losing inhibitions after the wine!

I started to lose. And then another gambler came to the table, accompanied by his wife or girlfriend close by. He proceeded to unveil chips of vast value ! I was down to 400 euros or so.

He played the table to the maximum limits and he was winning big time. I made small headway, but fifteen minues later - in actual fact I have to be honest maybe a little longer, but the time flew - it seemed like fifteen minutes of exhilirating experience, I was down a further 50 euros or so, and he was up by about 250,000 euros.

He walked out a triumphant millionare/billionaire, up a quarter of a million euros, hugging his beaming wife/girlfriend, and he walked out with the value of these euros in "blocks".

I will never forget it and hope he is still doing well. I walked off that night with 350 euros, and basically didn't gamble again, enjoying the rest of the time drinking coffee, eating out, sunbathing, bit of socialising with a few locals, visiting places etc. Shame I didn't go with anyone, there was a friend I could have gone with, but she'd recently had a child, and another possible companion had lost his passport having lost £1,000 down the local bookies ! I have absolutely no involvement with gambling now, and wish to own an internet casino within 5 years running on razor sharp margins, very high limits and giving a significant proportion of its profits to charity (starting at 40% of nett year end profits)

Five years before what occured in Monaco, I was on business in Poland, by day I did the day job of assisting in the installation of a Polish radio station, by night I gambled at the Marriott Hotel Casino, in Warsaw, Poland. I did meet in passing many, many poor people back then, and each night I would give money to beggars, and thought it would help them, and this seemed I think to bring me greater luck also.

I started with approximately 3000 'zloty' - this was less than £1,000, and hit the casino.

I played roulette night after night, applying my system, and night after night I was winning what were relative to Polish incomes, vast amounts of 'zloty'. By day 5 I was up to 15,000 zloty and I saw another man in the casino winning 10s of thousands of zlotty in the space of 10 minutes close by me. Incredibly, the man was placing significant bets on various numbers, and every single spin of the wheel he was significantly winning. I looked at the casino manager who was monitoring the situation - he had hand covering his gaping wide-open mouth, and there was sweat pouring off his forehead. Day 5 I had the 15,000 zloty placed in the hotel safe deposit box (I was staying at a cheap and cheerful hotel as opposed to the more expensive Marriott, but I would visit the Marriott every night).

In gamblng my way up to 15,000 one night I had visited an alternate Polish casino operated by different owners outside of Warsaw, and there I had had incredible luck too (luck was the key at the time - gambling is fool's gold!!) The first great luck was the free chip they gave me - I placed it on number 32, and it came in, number 32, very first spin. The final bet of that night the ball somehow got caught, and it was a multi-1,000s of zloty bet. The casino manager was monitoring the roulette table where I was placing the bets on my own exclusive table(!), and she asked me if I wanted to void the bet as it was not resolving through gravity. I begun to start saying no, let it ride, and just as I opened my mouth, the gravity took over, and I won my bet, a big bet split between two dozens, paying 1-2. I left very happy.

Day 6 though it went wrong! I took my wad of 15,000 zloty - a BIG sum to most Polish people - and hit the Marriott casino one last time.

I suddenly decided that my system was completely invincible, and placed bets of 1,000 zloty per spin. The casino manager looked over at our table, and he winked. This may have been just to make me lose my confidence in what was about to happen - possibly something known as a "cooler" technique. As others gasped, I dropped or lost close to 8,500 zloty in 5 minutes flat.

The final evening in the casino, the manager welcomed me and said "Good evening", I smiled, flirted a little with one of the casino waitresses, and left - down now to 6,500 zloty thereabouts. I didn't bet, just bought a strong drink at the bar, and left.

Back in the UK, a week or so later, I went to the Victoria Casino in London and played on their machines hooked up to an automated domed mechanical roulette wheel, with small to mid stakes.

I had played at the Victoria Casino years back (before their Millenium refurbishment). I had won money with my system. But subsequent to the refurbishment which they undertook, everything was different.

I would consistently lose. I would place bets on the machine, and just before the ball landed, you'd see the ball "jump" as though being attracted by magnets, to a completely different place than it appeared to be heading - it did this more often than land normally! It would all happen in a fraction of a second, but you'd notice it.

One time there I lost £3,500 in 3 minutes - that had been at a croupier table.

One time, I stood up, having seen a suspicious ball jerk at the automated machines, and started to protest. A man gestured sit down. 10 minutes later, I had selected the wrong bet by accident, had pressed Bet, and thought damn, that's gonna be a loser. It won, I was up over £1,000. It reminded of the very first time I had placed a single £1,000 bet on one spin - it had won. It was a great feeling, but it was all by now getting pretty cranky.

Regularly, I would continue to visit due to my addiciton, and lose.

Only though, at the machines, was the visual evidence compellingly worrying - I suspected electro-magnets. At the croupier attended tables of the London Victoria, having seen the machines, I couldn't be certain that they weren't cheating too, and certainly, since the refurbishment, I lost on 90% of visits, before - that had been rare.

[edit on 24-9-2009 by TheDailyPlanet]

Just to re-iterate what I put earlier, and to conclude this on an upbeat, I have absolutely no involvement with gambling now, and wish to own an internet casino within 5 years running on very fine margins, very high limits and giving a significant proportion of its profits to charity (starting at 40% of nett year end profits)

forget what i just said.

[edit on 11-12-2009 by MR BOB]

I dont understand the point of your anecdotes in relation to the title of the thread?

You have experienced variance, that is all.

You saw one person walk away with 250000 Euros, how do you know he did not lose 500000 later that day?

You won some money, and lost some money.

None of this has anything to do with the William Hill machines.

I am confused as to what direction you would like the discussion to go in this thread.