Why Capitalism Fails

reply to post by TheRedneck

The real problem here is knowing how AND WHEN to downshift, fellers!
Once you smoke the brakes, you're done.
What if there is no runaway ramp?
Better to be going the right speed in the first place and applying light pressure
.......in all situations.
Thanks for the posts! Was cute!



[edit on 19-9-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by dooper

Hey Dooper!
What if greed is sometimes confused with determination, ambition and drive?
What if its mixed up to-where greed is considered good or even God forbid, needed?
What if we sometimes even use that as a justification for the atrocities we commit?
Did we forget greed is really not supposed to be used as a "good" term?
Then one could say lazy is just saving your energy for when you really need it.
Or theft is okay because they have more than I do?
Where do we draw the line here? Just askin'?

Could it be just another flawed part of human naure we have to try to
overcome, to maybe even survive as a species?
Worse case?
Dig your posts-man!


[edit on 19-9-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by dodadoom

You must have driven a truck before....

We're on a 13% downhill grade, fully loaded to 80,000 pounds with nitro. They tore the runaway ramp out by bailing out the banks. We smoked the brakes in the Iraqi War and now in the Afghan War. Every time we try to downshift, the government starts coming up with new ways to spend more money we don't have and upshift! Gah, this reminds me of an old song by Red Sovine and Junior Brown, "The Nitro Express":

Well, I was pullin' up a hill that's known as the Devil's Crest
Haulin' 36 tons on a run called the Nitro Express.
There was nothin' but curves a-runnin' from the top on down
And at the bottom of the grade sat a quiet little country town.

I was drivin' off the top when she jarred and the driveshaft broke.
Started pumpin' up the brakes; saw 'em go in a big cloud of smoke!
To keep 'er upright, I knew I had to do my best
Against a runaway bomb they call the Nitro Express.

That old trailer leaned each time that I took another curve.
My hands started sweatin' and I knew I was losing my nerve!
And I was cussin' each rock and every inch of the Devil's Crest
While fightin' with the wheel of a rig called the Nitro Express.

I sideswiped the mountain, so I'd slow her down by rubbin' her side
And when the sparks started flyin', man, it looked like the Fourth of July!
I finally got her stopped, but mister I'm a-gonna confess
That's the last run I'm makin' in a rig called the Nitro Express!

Somehow that song seems appropriate when discussing our present economy...

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

Yap!
Wow!
We really are in sad shape eh?
(I was just asking for advice on gold in another thread, btw!)

Thanks for the reply and analogy! I think!
I keep saying we are doomed without some serious help!
Never hauled nitro though.........


Good call with the song btw, after all I am a Fender man!

[edit on 19-9-2009 by dodadoom]

Reply to Redneck and (all) his very thoughtful posts...you're a gas! Oh, that was terribly funny...no, just terrible...lol

I think at this point in the economy, the minimum wage is of small import anyway (except to those who earn it), as, if it truly had also been used to keep wages at pace with inflation, it would be much higher. When I saw in the 1980's, the teens getting replaced in those min wage jobs by their grandparents, who needed the income to live on, then the grandparents being joined by middle class workers who lost manufacturing jobs and found new jobs in the growing lower paid service sector, I knew something was up.

It is one thing to run an economy on financial products, if people deal honestly, but even a good poker game can be ruined when a player doesn't play fair. So combine fraud with an economy that increasingly relied on finance and credit to keep up the illusion of prosperity. Perhaps Americans would have been better off replacing In God We Trust on their money with the stern warning, Trust But Verify. (I would have said, Trust No One, but that's probably too cynical.)

Replacing "laissez faire" with "Laissez les bon temps roulez" is NOT good, though.

reply to post by desert

I think at this point in the economy, the minimum wage is of small import anyway (except to those who earn it), as, if it truly had also been used to keep wages at pace with inflation, it would be much higher.

If it is a moot point at this time, it is because we have passed the point of no return economically. There is now no possible way we can avoid a complete collapse. If every politician in the country suddenly became the most frugal and economically sensible people ever known, we would still slide downward into economic oblivion.

You're right that the real problem began when minimum wage jobs became the norm rather than the exception. I remember mowing yards to make extra money during the summer in my youth. Today, most lawns are cared for by professional lawn-care 'specialists'. That's a real shame, as hard work builds character in young people. It builds income in older ones. I consider character more vital than income.

I'm glad you liked the song. I have it on mp3, transferred form vinyl I bought back in the day. There's something about those simple songs that I just love... and this one was just so appropriate I had to include it.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

That reply is not a date for one, and for two that is the BANKING and investment SYSTEM, NOT a market for the SELLING of goods and services.

Now, if you want to discuss the problems with a communist-style central banking system then I'm all ears.

Again, when did Uncle Sam begin regulating BUSINESSES?

The anti-trusts laws came in sometime in the 1890s. The stock market was regulated by government after the first crash - around 1929.
I'm sure someone will give me an angry answer as to why I am wrong but, I think the anti-trust laws were a good thing. I also think the Glass-Steagal act was a good thing, repealing it helped get us to where we are now.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

Well put.

I actually agree 100%..

One aspect that I believe would benefit capitalism is to outlaw ALL forms of usury.. that way private institutions cannot generate wealth without production or even a basis as to why they produced that wealth.. illegalize usury and this collapse could never have happened..

Rockpuck, that is one of the most beautiful things I've heard in a long time. Screw usury!!!

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by tinfoilman

Anyone care to guess what happens if you do that in a car?

TheRedneck

I was just gonna star because I can't add anything to that. Almost a perfect 10 post lol.

However, I will just for fun. I know exactly what happens to that car. That's why I see the minimum wage as kinda of a trick if you will. Why I'm not really in support of it, but I am, but I'm not lol. Maybe I should explain that.

They tell us it's to help the workers and the employers, but in the end the market cancels almost all of that. For the employees at least. But helping the employees isn't really why it exists. That's just what they sell it to us with, workers rights.

I think the only real point to the minimum is to fix one glitch of the our current money system of which there are many many glitches. And they know that's the only point to it too.

So, I'm in support of the minimum wage while we have this money system basically because it's almost a necessity. It's like I don't support my arm being in a cast either, but I support it more than having the broken bone I had before you know.

The problem is I'm not in support of the inflationary money system we have hence the problem and the temporary solution to the problem.

Why? Well, you can't inflate forever. It goes boom boom lol.

The only problem though is, that our credit system is messed up too. People that have loans basically depend on the inflation so the money to pay back their loans becomes easy money. It's more complicated then that of course, but that's the basic premise.

Their thinking goes like this. I might owe a million now, but by the time I pay it off it'll be inflated. A million won't be nothing right?

So if we don't inflate we're still screwed because, well we all seen what happened with all the housing foreclosures and when the housing prices stopped "inflating" so they couldn't pay off their loans and make a profit.

So we have two systems that's really one system that's at odds with itself. It's gonna be a powder keg.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 21-9-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by tinfoilman


You have had some thoughtful posts, too.

Oh, and like Rockpup started, usury should be outlawed. (Why did I think it was ?)

When tiered wages became popular years ago, whereby new hires would be paid, for ex half of current workers, I thought How will families be able to buy the same amount? They couldn't, without going into debt more.

Combine the consumer debt with efforts to have workers share more in health care, education costs, retirement, more user fees instead of taxes...mix it all with the fraudulent/unregulated/under enforced actions of the growing financial sector, the collapse (not just a bubble...that's like comparing a soap bubble burst with a damn collapse) was inevitable.

Hey, speaking of the wage standard, continuing collapse of wages...

On Aug. 31, about 100 housekeepers at the Hyatt Regency Boston, Hyatt Regency Cambridge and Hyatt Harborside at Logan International Airport learned they had just lost their jobs to those trainees, who were replacement workers from a Georgia company called Hospitality Staffing Solutions.

One housekeeper, who had worked at a Hyatt for 22 years, told The Boston Globe that her co-workers cried and screamed upon hearing the news.

This was an unusual move for a hotel, but not a new one for America -- outsourcing jobs to save money at the expense of local workers. The Globe's Katie Johnston Chase reported that the new housekeepers will make only $8 an hour, which is nearly half the pay of their predecessors. They will not have the health, dental and 401(k) benefits of the housekeepers they replaced.

source


The important question Americans need to be asking is, if this is what the New Depression looks like, what will the New Economy look like to help end it?

For 3 decades, Americans have had the luxury of being divided over cultural/social issues. It is like we were all in the same boat, encouraged to fight each other, while the boat was heading right for Niagra Falls.

The attempt to divide us is still at play. For ex, ACORN. An organization, SINCE 1970, meant to help lower income workers and could be a thorn in the side of corporations, is now demonized. Sniper attack by those beholden to corporatism. Pick off the resistance. Amid cheers from those who don't understand the story. Nice play Shakespeare.

So, the question ... what do Americans want for THEIR new economy ... or do they care or even understand? Whatever it is, it CANNOT be status quo, and change is frightening to many citizens as well as old guard corporations, who have the money to prop up their stale regime.

How will citizens make sure American capitalism is re-invigorated? With the same status quo thinking at the turn of the 20th century, we would all be still riding in carriages pulled by horses, but the horses would have fancy reins.

reply to post by really

I'm sure someone will give me an angry answer as to why I am wrong but, I think the anti-trust laws were a good thing. I also think the Glass-Steagal act was a good thing, repealing it helped get us to where we are now.

I would agree with you. Allowing a person/corporation to become too powerful is what got us into this mess. Rockefeller and his federal reserve buddies set up the Committee for Economic Development in 1945 and have completely killed "Capitalism" in the USA.

We now have " Corporatocracy or Corpocracy a form of government where a corporation, a group of corporations, or government entities with private components, control the direction and governance of a country.

This belief is reinforced by two factors. First, corporations give to competing political parties and major political party candidates. This is seen as a corporation hedging their bets on the outcome of an election, and trying to get on the good side of whichever candidate is elected into office. Some say this is one of the hallmarks of a corporatocracy." (thank you Wikipedia for the definition)

What was once a decentralized system that provided a means to self sufficiency and independence for tens of millions of farmers was purposefully centralized into a capital-intensive fossil-fuel dependent system that restructured local economies, permitting their wealth to be extracted by what are now transnational cartels dedicated to the so-called free market and globalized trade at all costs.

This transformation was the result of organized plans developed by a group of highly powerful – though unelected – financial and industrial executives who wanted to drastically change agricultural practices in the US to better serve their collective corporate financial agenda. This group, called the Committee for Economic Development, was officially established in 1942 as a sister organization to the Council on Foreign Relations. CED has influenced US domestic policies in much the same way that the CFR has influenced the nation's foreign policies. www.opednews.com...

I do not care if you are socialist, libertarian, capitalist or a centralist, having greedy Sociopaths in control of our government is horrifying. And yes I call them Sociopaths, any one who drives farmers to suicide and starves children is a Sociopath or more correctly murderers.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Yes, farmer suicides. The bankruptcies and foreclosures remind me of the farm crisis of the 1980's.

Farmers had mortgaged farms to invest in farm equipment and land. Farm land prices fell, crop prices fell, farmers could not afford to pay on their debt. It was terrible to see the auctions of family farms. And the suicides...

Banks had encouraged farmers to go into debt, based on high land values. The same as banks encouraged homeowners in the current crisis to refinance.

As Woody Guthrie sang, "Some rob you with a six gun, some with a fountain pen."

Originally posted by crimvelvet
I do not care if you are socialist, libertarian, capitalist or a centralist, having greedy Sociopaths in control of our government is horrifying. And yes I call them Sociopaths, any one who drives farmers to suicide and starves children is a Sociopath or more correctly murderers.

Crimvelvet, I'm in complete agreement with the above statement and your take on corporatocracy.
If people were to read and understand most State Corporate law, they would be appalled by what Corporations can get away with. Moreover, there are two major evils to consider when looking at a corporation:
1. Corporations are looked at as 'Persons' legally. Meaning they are legally just like you and me, a person. Thus, they have been judicially found to be entitled to human rights. Moreover, this protects the very sociopaths you've mentioned. CEOs and Execs may hide behind a make believe person while perpetrating whatever heinous act they want. Moreover, in Dodge v. Ford, it was ruled that CEOs and execs must do whatever is in the "best interest of the corporation." This has lead to decreasing the value of products (such as both Dodge and Ford automobiles) to make a bigger buck. There is no conscience in the modern corporation.
2. The second evil is when it was made legal for one Corp to buy shares or buy out another corp. This started corporate speculation which lead to the demise of corporate production. What the hell do half of these giant corporations even do anymore?

greed killed capitalism plain and simple... The more greed out there, the deader we kill capitalism. Greed and special interests...their interest, the government's and the corporations, and not giving a darn what was in the best interest of the AMerican people.

reply to post by ldyserenity

Capitalism fails because it breeds corruption without a strong sense of morals.
And like common sense and compassion, we have none here anymore.
We have a society that believes greed is good.
And even, God forbid,.... needed!
Nuff said.

Remember this?



[edit on 21-9-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by really


Yes. You both get it.

When the guard dogs are in control of their handlers, when their handlers fear them, when the dogs are allowed to determine who to go after, something has gone terribly wrong.

ldyserenity and dodadoom bring up greed. Yes. Uncontrolled greed has reduced the American capitalistic system to barbarism.

As Americans were told to face the flag and salute, to face the cross and pray, behind their backs corporate pickpockets, encouraged by elected leaders, were allowed to rob their wealth.

For decades now, corporatism has been put into place, creating a world where stock prices soar not on how well goods are produced but on how many employees were laid off, how many businesses were gobbled up by other businesses.

reply to post by tinfoilman

You bring up a good point. One so profound I had to wait a little bit before answering you.

The economy and the interference with it has become so widespread and complicated that it is difficult if not impossible to understand it all in the space of a single mind. I had always considered that the minimum wage was simply a misguided attempt to appease the people and garner votes to stay in power. But when I look at the most recent (and greatest) hike in light of your post, I see much more.

Yes, I can see why inflation would be needed. Under continual inflation, borrowing money is always a good deal. The inflation exceeds the interest (or at least matches it) so one can have everything they want, right now, and have it now for free. Coupled with the short memory most humans have, an entire generation becoming accustomed to this immediate satisfaction of personal desires at no additional real cost equates to an entire generation who are so dependent on the status quo that they will do anything, even give up their very freedom, to keep the appearance of it.

That's why the first bailouts happened when they did. The minimum wage was timed slightly wrong; things went south a bit faster than was expected. Then the minimum wage increases kicked in and things began to stabilize a bit. Then, things began to destabilize again and more bailouts were needed.

The bailouts were never to stabilize the economy. They were there to hedge certain interests against a failing economy.

It's an uncommon occurrence when a single post brings such an epiphany. I'll rate your post as a 10 as well!

TheRedneck

crimvelvet, really, dodadoom, desert, Idyserenity...

You guys are awesome!

I am of the mind after reading this debate that we do need some serious changes to our system that I would have rejected out of hand not very long ago.

Corporations should not be allowed to invest in other corporations. That would stop a huge amount of problems right there. Corporations are places to invest, not places to make investments. That should be reserved for individuals. This is similar to my view that leveraged investment should be outlawed. If you want to buy futures, that's fine; you would just have to pay for everything you purchased and be capable of taking delivery of the commodity.

I'm torn on the 'no usury' idea, but I do see reason in your arguments against usury. Maybe in this case I am just a bit afraid of what would happen if the lines of credit were suddenly snapped (as would happen if no profit existed for making a loan). I dunno, I just need to think this over a bit more.

Also, isn't it a form of usury to return profit for investment, as in stock in a company?

I also see both good and bad points in the idea of making all corporations chartered. One of the main reasons for a small business to incorporate is to allow some measure of protection from massive lawsuits. The business is still at risk, but not the very livelihood of the owner(s). That's the reason I incorporated my businesses; one lawsuit, even one that has no real merit, could not only cost me the business itself, but lacking corporate protection everything I have including my family home. Back when corporations only existed under charter, the number of lawsuits as well as the amount of them was much less than it is today.

Perhaps some sort of limit on corporations having over a certain amount of receipts or a certain number of employees?

Now, if you will excuse me a moment, I have a whole pocket full of stars to give out.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thank you, Redneck, and I return the compliment.

Re usury... the word that goes with it is "exorbitant" ...exorbitant interest. I guess I missed when usury laws, especially state laws, changed. Or is it that there are so many EXCEPTIONS to these laws, that the average citizen ends up with loans at usurious rates? Ex credit cards.

Business owners take on much risk and should be rewarded for that. Market success or failure. Have even a simple product...you gotta have product liability. etc.

The last 3 decades have seen an increasing riskiness (job security) on the part of employees, too, however.

We're entering a brave new world of American capitalism. Refusing to enter will have future school children reading about the Decline and Fall of the USA. It will not fall because communists, socialists, human secularists took over. It will fall because we fail to safeguard our economic practices, fail to promote new ideas and entrepreneurship, and fail to support the American employee.

Imagine if Jimmy Carter's energy conservation and alternative energy plans, called into play after the oil crisis of the 1970's were not dropped in the 1980's (or the water conservation ideas never regressed after the severe western drought then). We would be in a totally different world now. Maybe we would not have been bothered by bin Laden, with the resulting wars. Maybe $100+ for a barrel of oil would not have destabilized the economy.

"What if" can be terrifying to some and cause for withdrawing to the past. To others, "what if" ignites a passion to explore, to discover, to change. We had that passion for most of our country's years.

Corporatism kills the "what if", the desire to change. For in a corporate controlled world, citizens are turned into consumers with no desire except to take-in. Status quo is ok, because status quo invites profits without having to do any investment for the future.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by desert]

reply to post by desert

Re usury... the word that goes with it is "exorbitant" ...exorbitant interest. I guess I missed when usury laws, especially state laws, changed. Or is it that there are so many EXCEPTIONS to these laws, that the average citizen ends up with loans at usurious rates? Ex credit cards.

The last time I checked (a long time ago, my first personal financial 'crisis'), I was informed by an attorney that my state laws allowed a maximum interest charge of 33% APR. I suggest that perhaps the laws haven't changed, there were just market conditions earlier that allowed people to refuse higher rates.

In any case, I believe restrictions against excessive usury (technically, as I understand it, usury is synonymous with interest?) would make my mind at ease much more than making all interest illegal.

And while I think of it, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by usury in the first place. If so, please forgive my ignorance.

Business owners take on much risk and should be rewarded for that. Market success or failure. Have even a simple product...you gotta have product liability. etc.

I believe tort reform would go a long way as well. Today's legal climate is a far cry from the original purpose of lawsuits, that is, to make things right. Today, they are more to punish those seen in an unfavorable light and to reward those who appear pitiful on the witness stand simply for looking pitiful.

It's funny that the subject of tort reform tends to come up quite often in the health care debates as well.....

"What if" can be terrifying to some and cause for withdrawing to the past. To others, "what if" ignites a passion to explore, to discover, to change. We had that passion for most of our country's years.

Rarely do I hear this subject covered with such simplicity and elegance.

Now, the big question becomes, how do we safeguard that dying American spirit? We cannot forgo the coming crash, but we can survive it. How do we make sure that spirit of innovation and independence exists on the other side?

TheRedneck