Was the Germans first with the nuclear bomb?

Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by punkinworks

 

I believe that the Wehrmacht used fuel-air shells at Kursk and a few other places where they made us of their super mortars and railguns.

The Germans' "super mortars" weren't particularly super (unless you're a model builder) compared to more conventional artillery. They were good at reducing very heavy concrete fortifications, but unfortunately for the Germans, the Allies weren't in the habit of building those.

As for 'railguns', I'm not normally much of a 'terminology Nazi'...but given the existence of railguns (electromagnetic artillery like the systems currently under development by the US Navy and others) and railroad artillery (like the German K-5 or "Dora"). I'm fairly certain that there weren't any German railguns, and I don't think there was much (if any) railroad artillery used at Kursk. I could easily be wrong about that, as I'm more of a navy buff than an artillery person.

But I am also of the mind that the Germans were much further advanced than the general public will ever accept.

Based on what?

We dropped an untested bomb on Nagasaki. We never tested Uranium bombs before.

I believe that the allies may have had access to test data regarding a German uranium bomb test. This is why the allies took the risk of airmailing Japan enough Uranium to build a bomb... because it wasn't a risk to those in the know.

The "Little Boy" type device (a gun barrel device based on U-235) didn't need to be tested. It had one moving part (one of the two 'slugs' of uranium), and was based on very well-understood physics ("Put "X" kilos of U-235 in a mass, and there will be an uncontrolled chain reaction"). Thus, testing wasn't considered necessary. The risk of the Japanese recovering enough U-235 from a failed initiation to do anything with was considered negligible, since even a failed initiation would've scattered the stuff over a fairly wide area in very small bits. The device's conventional explosive train detonated at ~5,000 feet, so any 'crash debris' would be fairly spread out.

The "Fat Man" type device (plutonium implosion), on the other hand, was a much more 'theoretical' proposition. It was known that increasing the density of a radioactive metal could lower the critical mass...making what had been a sub-critical sphere into a somewhat less stable object. Unfortunately, the implosion idea couldn't be tested on small scales by "tickling the dragon's tail"...it was an all-or-nothing event that required extreme violence to initiate...thus the need for a test article, and the now-famous Trinity test.

*snipped plug for "Reich of the Black Sun".*

They had the best weapons and some crazy technology but I doubt atom bombs
I am sure they would have used them to effect on a base and not just on troops... luckily as already been said we had a group put a screen door on their U-boat by sabotaging the 'heavy water' plant without any casualties in the first part... even though a bunch of foreign troop (I forget British I think) failed to do so...
Patriotism!

Originally posted by Popeye
No they did not get near the bomb. The Heavy water program and the amount of available uranium was not of sufficient size.

Germany had an alternate heavy water plant at Leuna's IG Farben Amonia Nitrate works. Another codenamed BECK was situated outside Keil and was built by Dr Paul Harteck. Later the Vermok plant was dismantled and re-erretced at Hechingen, near the site Germany's last reactor. In any case heavy water only mattered if the A-bomb was to be made from Plutonium.

There are several clues suggesting that the bombs tested at Ohrdruf and Rugen were Uranium A-bombs. Germany captured 1,200 tonnes of Uranium from the Congo when they marched into Belgium.

Furthermore Germany principally sourced Uranium ore from the Jach-y-mov mine in western Czechoslovakia. The nazis demanded production of 50 tonnes per year and in 1946 productiondipped to 18 tonnes before rising to 145 tonnes in 1947.

Uranium was refined at Oranienberg by Degaussa and enriched at various sites. At Celle in northern Germany using the Anscholtz & Co Mark III-A type ultracentrifuge and at Kandern using the Mark III-B ultracentrifuge which in today's terms was a P-2 type centrifuge as used by the Iranians.

In a letter from Plenepotentiary for Nuclear sciences Walther Gerlach to Goering's secretary Gonnert in October 1944, Gerlach stated that progress with uranium enrichment for the Atomic bomb was well in hand.

Citing various pages from the Virus House, by David Irving (taken from Gouldsmitt's personal file collection)

You may be thinking 2 'historians' Karlsch and Walker who in 2005 alleged that Diebner's team tested some type of nuclear related device in Ohrdruf, Thuringia. (I think this was also the place that Nick Cook in his book on Zero point Energy said the German carried some radical science experiements)

Diebner's laboratory at Stadtilm was just a few miles east of the Ohrdruf Concentration camp where a blast was said to happen in March 1945.

This is a totally different location to Nick Cook's Nazi Bell project near Swydnica in the former Silesia near it's broder with the Czech republic.

However the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB, Federal Physical and Technical Institute) tested soil samples in the area of the alleged test, but found nothing.

Not correct at all. PTB tested Karlsch's soil samples and found elevated levels of Caesium 137 and Cobolt 60.

PTB dismissed the radioactive traces as likely either coming from Chernobyl fall out or from Soviet era atmospheric tests.

PTB disclosed no evidence of Plutonium Pu239 or Americum 241 which one would expect from a Plutonium A-bomb. This therefore rules out Soviet era nuclear tests, or a Nazi Plutonium weapon.

PTB disclosed no evidence of Caesium 134 which Chernobyl fall out is known to have included. Whilst Caesium -134 would have long since degraded since the accident in 1986 it would have left behind four atoms of Xenon 134 for every 100 atoms of Caesium 137 found at Ohrdruf and there is absolutely no indication of Xe-134.

This is very important. Atomic weapons will produce Caesium 137 but they can't produce Caesium 134 which are only the product of slow neutrons in a reactor. The PTB tests rule out Chernobyl as the source of soil contamination.

This only leaves one possibility and that is that Caesium 137 at Rugen and at Ohrdruf are entirely the product of a Uranium A-bomb.

In fact the radionuclides found at Ohrdruf in 2005 exactly match the results of a fall out survey at Hiroshima conducted in 1983. Remember that the Hiroshima bomb was a Uranium A-bomb. A similar survey at Nagasaki was quite different due to the differnt type of A-bomb there.

Cited above:
Journal of Radiation Research by Robert T. Santoro, Stephen D. Egbert, John M. Barnes, George D. Kerr, Joseph V. Pace III, James A. Roberts, Charles O. Slater, Vol.24 , No.3 (1983) pp.229-236



[edit on 26-5-2010 by Tele_Banned]

So, that means the speculations is not all fabrication.

So if the prisonercamp was nuked....what hapend to the russian inf. company on eastern front, did they suffer same fate, or where there a german experimental air-fuel bomb that eradicated them from the face of the earth?

An old but interesting story about the German nukes has popped back up on the BBC website.


BBC

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
Well if you want to try and paint it as an act, what can't you justify? Maybe the Nazi's actually had anti-matter bombs and teleporters but they just didn't mention it and destroyed the evidence to fool us.

All the evidence points to no.

Nope all the evidence does not point to "NO"

Take one for example... Transcripts of Farm Hall recordings, Operation Epsilon.

In August 1945 Heisenberg was recorded conversing with Karl Wirtz about the bombing of Nagasaki. Heisenberg stated there were three known paths to a nuclear bomb. These he enumerated were:

1) Separation (ie U235)
2) Uranium machine (reactor) to produce element 94
3) Protoactinium Bomb (aka Proactinum)

Given that Proactinum is not naturally occuring perhaps one should explain why Heisenberg saw this as a practical method to the bomb and what project was he talking about because there is scant record (not at least declassified) of such a project in Nazi Germany.

The clue however is that Heisenberg and Max von Laue worked together with pro nazi Swiss scientist Walter Dallenbach at Bisingen on a project to develop a heavy particle accelerator to breed Proactinum 233. The project known as Forschungsstelle D was also described however by an OSS spy Erwin Respndek as dedicated to creating a Uranium bomb.

Heisenberg recommended Dällenbach to Speer, who in December 1942 helped arrange financial backing from the head of the giant AEG electrical company, Hermann Bücher, then a member of the Armaments Ministry's board on new weapons project, for the inventor's efforts to develop new devices for "atomic-energy purposes."
By July 1943 Dällenbach had set himself up in a well-funded special research facility at Bisingen (Forschungstelle D). After the war, of course, Dällenbach claimed that his interest in a "super-cyclotron" was purely scientific, but he seems to have solicited funding for it on the basis of its military potential.*

* [Heisenberg and the Nazi Atomic Bomb Project, Rose, Paul Lawrence, page 185-186]

The purpose of this zyklotron was to harvest Protoactinium 233 from irridation of Thorium 233. Within 27 days the Pa233 would decay through Beta emission into pure bomb grade Uranium 233, with no contamination by Uranium 232.

When the Nazi scientists working on nuclear technologies were captured and held by the allies at the end of the European theatre, they put them up in top notch accommodations. [Farm Hall] Not because they were generally nice guys but because they had bugged all the rooms to listen to their private conversations.

They discussed nearly nothing of interest until it was announced on the radio that America had dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan and it had been a success. They immediately began to try and work out how they accomplished it amongst themselves, debating the possibilities back and forth.

They weren't even remotely close, instead of a sphere of plutonium the size of a grapefruit and weighing perhaps 15-20kg, they were talking tonnes.

Diebner and Heisenberg were also recorded in Diebner's room discussing the possibility that everything they said was being bugged. Has it ever remotely occured to you that after this Heisenberg made a huge effort to convince his fellows that he wasn't truly a nazi and that he really didn't understand atomb bombs. Does it not appear obvious to you that Heisenberg was saying what he wanted them to hear?

Earlier at the Harnack Haus conference of July 1942, Milch recounts that in reply to a question he put forward how big a nuclear weapon would have to be to destroy a whole city Heisenberg replied only as big as a Pineapple. Milch also recounts that Heisenberg was enthusiastically trying to recruit nazi party funding for the purpose of creating a nuclear weapon.

Hardly something one can reconcile with Heisenberg's born again anti-Nazi stance at Farm Hall.

Incidentally there is evidence of two nuclear tests near Bisingen in July 1943, one in August 1943. These were mentioned in the Woods memorandum in Cordell Hull's papers as suspected nuclear tests.

Another nuclear test referred to in an Allied BIOS, report early in 1944 southwest of Munich flattened a forest on a hillside for a radius of 4-5 kilometres with blast effects to a radius of 12.5km. This was observed it is claimed by Allied aerial observations.

These are test blasts in addition to one at Rugen in October 1944 and two at Ohrdruf in March 1945. Incidentally the last test at Ohrdruf was observed in person by Hitler.

In search of atomic bomb truth.
I'm wondering about perhaps two or three Nazi tests.
I wonder if they were small like the suitcase bombs we hear of.
Then add more mass and get a bigger bomb.
There is a theory of a Libyan desert bomb test.
Like why else would Hitler send Rommel to open a North African Campaign.
The test or to hoax US intel that he had a weapon to threaten us with from
sea launched missiles off the east coast. There were test aircraft flights
that reached the Atlantic coast but the useful plane launched bombs would stand
unused some how as not even a hoaxed threat. A mini American test
or accident might have happened at Port Chicago, Ca
www.google.com...

In 1944, the Port Chicago disaster killed hundreds of Americans in a single blast.
Was it an accident, or was it America's first atomic weapons test? ...

The Japan blasts have been said to be both Uranium and used parachute
delivery for some reason. Looking at the size of the Fat Man bomb it was too
big for plane delivery in a picture I saw as the bomb bay doors could not
close. And of course both from Germany perhaps. What is also suspicious
are the filming of the blasts perhaps done by other planes not the bombers.
Well that should be enough to think about.