Was the Germans first with the nuclear bomb?

I have read alot about second world war, and have a great interest in it.
But in the recent days, a collegue of mine here at work, told me that there is strong ....thoughts.... that the Germans, made, tested and used nuclear weapons during WW2.

If you search the there is 2 sites worth mentioning.


One close to Stralsund in the Baltic Sea
From: www.historykb.com...

Found this quote

Luigi Sacerra was an Italian who claimed in the 1950s that he had been
an eyewitness at a secret weapon test by the Third Reich. According to
Sacerra, on the evening of Thursday 10-12 and the predawn hours of
Friday 10-13, 1944, he was an Italian observer at a test on Rugen of
what was described to him as a "disintegration" bomb.

As far a I understand, the Italian, a Japanese envoy, and several other importent German high ranking officials where observing this "Wunderwaffe" as it disintigrated a concentration camp with somewhat 100 innmates.

This is the first test, as far as I know that is somewhat "logged".
As far as I know anyway.


There is also reports of this weapon beeing used against the russians on the eastern front, about 150 KM south of Kursk, a hole infantery regiment.

The second fragment of information relied on by Karlsch are some
after-action reports filed in the wake of Kursk by Japanese observers
attached to Soviet forces. The Japanese sent news to their Moscow
embassy that there had been two extraordinary attacks by the Germans.
The Germans had launched two kilo shells at the Red Army and those uses
had an extraordinary affect on the troops. The Soviet troops had been
"burned black" and supposedly the Reds identified the weapon as a gas
attack, and signalled the foe that any repetition of the attack would
bring immediate Soviet chemical reaction.

The Japanese observer claimed that the Kursk weapon had been an atom
splitting bomb, and reported that the weapon had also once been used in
the Crimea at some unspecified time.

Again, this is not the strongest evidence. The date of the "attacks" is
given as Saturday 7-3, 1943, when a careful reporter would know that
Kursk started Monday 7-5. (Of course, it is possible the secret weapon
was used a weekend in advance of the armored assault

This was the russian 19th Infantry Regiment, They were attacked by a few (2-3) warheads, some say 2 Kilo, others say 5 kilo warheads, but what I'm looking into, is this a "mini nuke" used, or was this as some sources say, a Air-blast bomb with radioactive substance in it?

second source, check quote-box at bottom:
www.greyfalcon.us...
They said that all soldiers was burned to charkoal, and all ammunition was ignited.

The last info I have on the German A-bomb, is the US made Uranium bomb, It was never tested, unlike the US plutonium bomb.
This I see as firm evidence that Ultra knew that the Uranium bomb allready worked, thus, the bomb, or material captured from the German Uboat, U-234 that was heading for Japan with material for making a bomb.

Wiki-a-U-234 - en.wikipedia.org...

What I'm looking into is fact, is there any recently de-classefied Ultra/topsecret pappers that can confirm, or firmly deny the German A-bomb, especially the one's supposed to be used in Kursk.

if im not wrong...once the Allies entered in Nazis occupied terroritries they found that the Germans we not even close regarding technology for being able to to produce the A-Bomb....it is also true that this was due special sabotage missions which sucessfully destroyed some factories, also due the fact that many atomic scientists happen to be jews who left Nazi Germany.

even the Russians used to bluff alot trying to keep up with the USA in the race for Nuclear Weapons...the big problem was how these bombs were going to be delivered...in fact the USA was the first to come up with ideas like nukes fired from submarines and unmanned vehicles

As a Norwegian, I am well aware of the heavy water action happening at Rjukan, an exeptionally well planed action, with zero cassulties during the destruction of the plant, but when they had to sink a ferry, that had containers with allready processed heavy water bound for Germany, there were both millitary and sivilian casulties.


The other reports, like the one in Stralsund, where a concentration camp was oblitherated, with several witnes from German friendly nations, including Italian and Japanese officials, and even several high ranking German officers, must count for something, and i don't think they used a Air-fuel bomb here.

Originally posted by heineken
if im not wrong...once the Allies entered in Nazis occupied terroritries they found that the Germans we not even close regarding technology for being able to to produce the A-Bomb...

You are wrong.

The German's were much farther ahead that the propaganda would have you believe.

German technology also gave us our Space program and helped us increase our cheese production several times over.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by Phoebus


There was a biography I read on Moe Berg, the famous catcher in the major leagues. He was also known as the smartest baseball player who ever lived. The man was well-studied and knew several languages (list is long).

What people didn't realize during WW2 was Moe Berg used his baseball fame as a cover to spy for the US military. One part was to help ascertain how close the Nazis with completing a nuclear bomb. If they were close, Berg was to kill Heisenberg.

Wiki : Moe Berg

From May to mid-December, Berg hopped around Europe interviewing physicists and trying to convince several to leave Europe and work in America. At the beginning of December, news about Heisenberg giving a lecture in Zurich, Switzerland reached the OSS, and Berg was assigned the task of attending the lecture and determining "if anything Heisenberg said convinced him the Germans were close to a bomb." If Berg came to the conclusion that the Germans were close, he had orders to shoot Heisenberg; Berg determined that the Germans were not close. During his time in Switzerland, Berg became close friends with the physicist Paul Scherrer. Berg returned to the United States on April 25, 1945, and resigned from the Strategic Services Unit, the successor to the OSS, in August. He was awarded the Medal of Freedom on October 10, but he rejected the award on December 2. His sister later accepted it on his behalf after his death.

A fascinating read. A must for any WW2 buffs.

No they did not get near the bomb. The Heavy water program and the amount of available uranium was not of sufficient size. Also when Werner Heisenberg was interviewed after the war he was surprise at the number and quantities of material used in the allied bomb showing that he was not on the right track. It is up to you to decide if you believe his claim that he got the numbers wrong to sabotage the program after his famous meeting with Neils Bohr From 15 to 22 September 1941, in German occupied Copenhagen.

You may be thinking 2 'historians' Karlsch and Walker who in 2005 alleged that Diebner's team tested some type of nuclear related device in Ohrdruf, Thuringia. (I think this was also the place that Nick Cook in his book on Zero point Energy said the German carried some radical science experiements)

However the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB, Federal Physical and Technical Institute) tested soil samples in the area of the alleged test, but found nothing.

The U.S.A. got the tech for an Abomb thanks to project paperclip. J Robert Oppenheimer is credited with inventing the A-bomb, but the following is a partial list of physicists, dr's, chemists, engineers, etc, considered among the best in the world, that were relocated to the U.S. under Paperclip, and immediately employed to creat weapons in the U.S.

Herbert Wagner
Werner Von Braun
Erich W. Neubert,
Theodor A. Poppel,
August Schulze,
Eberhard Rees,
Wilhelm Jungert
Walter Schwidetzky
Aurthur Rudolph
Hubertus Strughold
Georg Goubau,
Gunter Guttwein,
Georg Hass,
Horst Kedesdy,
Kurt Levovec;
physical chemists Professor Rudolf Brill and
Drs. Ernst Baars and Eberhard Both;
geophysicist Dr. Helmut Weickmann;
Dr. Gerhard Schwesinger;
Drs. Eduard Gerber,
Richard Guenther
and Hans Ziegler

reply to post by captaintyinknots


how could operation paper clip have provided scientists to the manhattan project.
we got a lot of scientists from different field during paper clip, but the work of the manhattan project was already done with by that time.

And the russian bomb project was built mostly from information gained from espionage during the mahattan project, germans might nhave assisted but most of their info came from spies in the us.
there was a young mathematician (oppenhiemers asst. i believe)that transcribed personal notes of the senior scientists into readble scientific papers. he would copy what he was trasncribing onto a news paper with milk. Every day he walked in and out freely and was never caught, he even freely admitted it in a mid '90's interview for a documentary about us counter espionage efforts.

reply to post by punkinworks


My research shows me(and given, I have included some opinons in that), that the manhatten project had an infusion of paperclip scientists far before the official start of paperclip. In what I have found, paperclip started as the manhatten project was just ramping up.

Again, these are just the conclusions I have come to.

The Germans were not even close to developing nuclear weapons, in fact they didn't have any high priority program to do so. German weapons development was all over the map, with many totally unworkable and duplicitous programs going nowhere except sucking up money and effort. There were umpteen reasons for this, politics and Hitler himself being the main reasons. they did experiment with fuel-air explosives though, this is probably the origins of the "large explosions" stories.
Sorry guys, the Germans had no wonder super advanced weapons, even the ME 262 would have been outclassed rapidly by allied ( mostly American ) technology. No flying saucers either!

reply to post by captaintyinknots


sorry man there is no way paper clip scientists had any effect on the us bomb program.
The first operation to gather up nazi scientists was made in july 45, we al ready had a bomb by that time, after 3 years of work.

german scientists made huge contributions to the fields of areonauitics areospace and such. But the german scientists who worked on the manhattan project defected before the war started.

Originally posted by punkinworks
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

sorry man there is no way paper clip scientists had any effect on the us bomb program.
The first operation to gather up nazi scientists was made in july 45, we al ready had a bomb by that time, after 3 years of work.

german scientists made huge contributions to the fields of areonauitics areospace and such. But the german scientists who worked on the manhattan project defected before the war started.

While I respect your opinion, I have done YEARS of research on this subject. It's going to take more than someone just saying so to change my mind.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


Well I hate to say it if you are insisting operation papeclip scientists made a contribution to the manhattan projects development of the bomb, your "years of research" were wasted.
The US bomb program started in 39.
the offical quest for the bomb started in42 with the inception of the manhattan engineering district

The Manhattan Project was the codename for a project conducted during World War II to develop the first atomic bomb. The project was led by the United States, and included scientists from the United Kingdom and Canada. Formally designated as the Manhattan Engineer District (MED), it refers specifically to the period of the project from 1942–1946 under the control of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, under the administration of General Leslie R. Groves. The scientific research was directed by American physicist J. Robert Oppenheimer.[1]

The project's roots lay in scientists' fears since the 1930s that Nazi Germany was also investigating nuclear weapons of its own. Born out of a small research program in 1939, the Manhattan Project eventually employed more than 130,000 people and cost nearly US$2 billion ($22 billion in current value). It resulted in the creation of multiple production and research sites that operated in secret.[2]

Project research took place at over thirty sites across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom. The three primary research and production sites of the project were the plutonium-production facility at what is now the Hanford Site, the uranium-enrichment facilities at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and the weapons research and design laboratory now known as Los Alamos National Laboratory. The MED maintained control over U.S. weapons production until the formation of the Atomic Energy Commission in January 1947.

Manhattan project


in 1942 e teller was already pushing for a hydrogen bomb
3 years before paperclip.


The first bomb was built and shipped fro the drop on hiroshima without testing, the u235 little boy, because there was oly enough u235 for one bomb with out testing.
The bomb tested at alamagordo was a Pu type bomb as was fat man that was dropped on nagasaki.
The three years of work that went the program were completed before the first captured german scientists were even in the us.


The first seven papclip scientist, all rocket guys, came to the us in sept 45 after the japanese surrender.
The next batch didnt arrive until 1950

paperclip

the history is preety clear on this subject.

you are wrong

The scientist did come after the surrender of Germany, yes, but the Uranium used in the second bomb was German, that is why I would like to know some more info about the German atomb bomb program during WW2, as they removed (obliterated) a concentration camp at Stralsund, and a russian infantery regiment was scorched, I would like to know, if those 2 events is not a nuke/baby nuke, can someone confirm, firmly that it might have been a air-fuel bomb?

If this is a Air-fuel bomb.
Can 2-3 shells of 2-5 kilo devestate a hole infantery regiment??

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Phoebus]

When the Nazi scientists working on nuclear technologies were captured and held by the allies at the end of the European theatre, they put them up in top notch accommodations. Not because they were generally nice guys but because they had bugged all the rooms to listen to their private conversations.

They discussed nearly nothing of interest until it was announced on the radio that America had dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan and it had been a success. They immediately began to try and work out how they accomplished it amongst themselves, debating the possibilities back and forth.

They weren't even remotely close, instead of a sphere of plutonium the size of a grapefruit and weighing perhaps 15-20kg, they were talking tonnes.

I'we also seen that on Discovery, but has it occured to anyone that they talked like that to give the yanks disinformation??

reply to post by Phoebus


I recommend you read or listen to some of the material by Joseph P Farrell.

I don't think any civilian has researched the advanced components of secret German weapons programs as much as he has.

Here he is, listen to him (then obtain a bibliography and start hunting):

www.thebyteshow.com...

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by Phoebus


Well if you want to try and paint it as an act, what can't you justify? Maybe the Nazi's actually had anti-matter bombs and teleporters but they just didn't mention it and destroyed the evidence to fool us.

All the evidence points to no.

Originally posted by Phoebus
The scientist did come after the surrender of Germany, yes, but the Uranium used in the second bomb was German, that is why I would like to know some more info about the German atomb bomb program during WW2, as they removed (obliterated) a concentration camp at Stralsund, and a russian infantery regiment was scorched, I would like to know, if those 2 events is not a nuke/baby nuke, can someone confirm, firmly that it might have been a air-fuel bomb?

If this is a Air-fuel bomb.
Can 2-3 shells of 2-5 kilo devestate a hole infantery regiment??

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Phoebus]

I'll admit whe i first read of a possible atomic detonation during the battle of kursk i was very intrigued.
But the more you think about it the more unlikely it becomes.
And it seems that the more I look into it, the more the story changes.

First it was an armoured brigade that got nuked several days into the battle, then it transforms into an infantry regiment, and the attack is observed by JAPANESE, imbedded with SOVIET forces, are they mad?

There is no way the ultra paranoid soviets would have allowed japanese observers to move with soviet forces.

Also one you have to take into account, was how well documented ww2 combat was. Both the nazis and the soviets extensively documented the actions at kursk and if an atom bomb had bee set off, it would have been caught on film.
Then theres the whole question of a delivery system available to the nazis in 1943, there was none at all.
The best the nazis could do was a 6,000lb payload, in a bomber, half of what was needed to carry either us bomb.
It is so unlikely that it happened as to be impossible
Just the physical logistics of the size of the facilities it took to produce the materials in those days is astounding.
No matter which method you go by to get fissile materials it took tremendous amounts of energy to isolate u235 and manufacture pu239.
Germany didnt have the power available to either enrich and separate u235 or pu 239.
The mahattan project used 70 million pounds of silver in the quest for the bomb, thats 70 million pounds, building machines to separate u235 at oak ridge.
Oak ridge was a 60,000 acre facility that consumed 1/6 of the us's entire electrical out put, thats 1/6 of the entire electrical output for the us.
Just to get the material for one bomb.
And the whole question of the suposed detonation over soem concentration camp is ettled by the fact that subsequent analysis of soil samples, from the area, show no signs of the radionucleides that would be present at such a site.

reply to post by punkinworks


I believe that the Wehrmacht used fuel-air shells at Kursk and a few other places where they made us of their super mortars and railguns.

But I am also of the mind that the Germans were much further advanced than the general public will ever accept.

We dropped an untested bomb on Nagasaki. We never tested Uranium bombs before.

I believe that the allies may have had access to test data regarding a German uranium bomb test. This is why the allies took the risk of airmailing Japan enough Uranium to build a bomb... because it wasn't a risk to those in the know.

Edit: Hey you might like this book by Joseph Farrell called "Reich of the Black Sun" - he covers in detail the processes used to produce the requisite amount of weapons-grade uranium and how the process as kept hidden. I think it is online in .pdf. It is worth the read.



*Some here will say that if this was they case, they surely would have known. As if they were cleared AND had a need to know. (not you)




[edit on 18-9-2009 by Exuberant1]