Capitalism = Racism (A Brief Exploration)

reply to post by Guidance.Is.Internal


Do you have a point to make? Calling the OP an idiot is against the decorum here.

reply to post by KSPigpen


I'm really at a loss of what to say. Both you and the poster below you seem to lack critical reading skills. That's not a personal attack, and its not because we don't agree; your interpretation of my words does not reflect their context or meaning, and, unless you had an intent to misquote for the sake of supporting a fallacy, I can only conclude that you lack the ability to comprehend what I wrote.

Regarding slaves, and the effect of emancipation on the South: If I legally own something, and you come along and say "no you don't," take what I have paid for, and fail to compensate, it is in human nature to resent that. In the case of slave owners, it was as if someone came and told them that everything they owned was no longer theirs. It has nothing to do with morality; by the standard of the day, slavery was morally and legally acceptable. Emancipation was a fringe movement even in Civil War times, but was grasped on by Lincoln as a means to undermine the South. If you research his own words, he never had any intention of making the freed slaves citizens. They only became such because the issue spun out of Lincoln's control.

With all of this, though, it boils down to one thing: you see the world, not just what is, but what has been, through a prism of what you believe it should be. I am talking about the world as it was, and as it is. Thus it becomes impossible to have a coherent discussion, because your fantasy only intersects with reality at certain points. Much the same is the issue with talking to anyone from the fundamentalist naturalist/communist left, or the fundamentalist religious/fascist right. They define their reality based on belief systems that bear only passing relation to facts and truth, and thus a rational conversation based on facts and truth is impossible.

As for your accusation that I am racist, it is despicable how you twisted my words; I said EVEN THE MINORITIES THAT I AM FRIENDS WITH seek predominantly white communities, because communities that are predominantly minorities are pretty much barbaric, violent, and corrupt. In fact, the group of people that i know that hate "ghetto rats" (as they call them) the most are ALL BLACK. They hate them because it is so difficult for mature, civilized black people to escape the brush that ghetto culture paints their race with. Those people, THEM, who choose to live like animals, MAKE THAT CHOICE FOR THEMSELVES, and deserve whatever comes to them for it. I will NEVER degrade myself out of some sort of insane and illogical "multiculturalism." Im a big fan of a lot of foreign cultures, and well educated in a number of them, and I embrace those that further intellect, truth, and enlightenment, while avoiding and abhorring those whose followers choose to act like animals. They have a right to live how they choose; I have a right to hate any cultural that reduces mankind to beasts. As any sane man would.

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal
Capitalism is an economic system which permits voluntary goods exchange between parties and protects the involved parties through contract enforcement. To call this racist only proves that you're .. an idiot.

Thanks for bring some top notch discussion and an eye-opening opinion to the table. I appreciate your input.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet

I'm really at a loss of what to say. Both you and the poster below you seem to lack critical reading skills. That's not a personal attack, and its not because we don't agree; your interpretation of my words does not reflect their context or meaning, and, unless you had an intent to misquote for the sake of supporting a fallacy, I can only conclude that you lack the ability to comprehend what I wrote.

Please DO point out where your words have been misquoted. That's a fairly serious accusation. You have not edited your posts, so please go through them and compare where I have quoted you and explain where you have been 'misquoted.' You can level whatever accusations you like, from the lack of an ability to 'comprehend' your statements, to 'misquoting' or or 'misinterpreting' your words. It really doesn't matter. If you are using a different version of the English language, please disclose that, so that I may learn the 'real' meanings of the words that you have used, rather than my apparently lacking interpretation of the 'standard' version of English.

Questioning one's ability to comprehend your words does not make them any more valid. What makes them valid is something to substantiate your claims.

Regarding slaves, and the effect of emancipation on the South: If I legally own something, and you come along and say "no you don't," take what I have paid for, and fail to compensate, it is in human nature to resent that.

That is as clear as the rather elongated nose on my face. The resentment (a mild form of hatred, perhaps) was the result of slaves being freed (from slave OWNERS) with no compensation. Yeah, I get it. Slave owners were pissed because someone told their slaves they could be free and they didn't 'pay' the slave owners for it. The slave owners lost their assets (again capitalism) and didn't get compensation. So they got mad, their children got to hear how mad they were, as did their grandkids. The hatred, or perceived injustice was passed down to, what do you know, some white people that are alive today. Funny how that works. Pretty clear.

In the case of slave owners, it was as if someone came and told them that everything they owned was no longer theirs.

Uh, no. Someone came along and told them that the HUMAN BEINGS they 'owned' were no longer theirs.

It has nothing to do with morality; by the standard of the day, slavery was morally and legally acceptable.

That really isn't even the issue. The issue is the CONNECTION between the slave owners using slaves as assets in a capitalistic system. Their anger at the loss of these assets, passed through generations, is what we get to see today through the eyes of militant racists...on BOTH sides of the coin. Blacks are just as 'guilty' of perpetuating the hate as whites, but without slavery, within the confines of that capitalistic system, that hate wouldn't exist, for the reasons that it does.

With all of this, though, it boils down to one thing: you see the world, not just what is, but what has been, through a prism of what you believe it should be. I am talking about the world as it was, and as it is. Thus it becomes impossible to have a coherent discussion, because your fantasy only intersects with reality at certain points.

I hear you. Because I am unable to see things the way YOU interpret them, I am unable of having a 'coherent discussion.' It's a complete and udder fantasy that slaves were assets. A complete fantasy that they were OWNED by private individuals and a complete fantasy that they were used in the production of other assets. You have yet, in all of your pages worth of responses proven that to not be the case. If they were indeed assets, used for the production of other assets, and were owned by private individuals, they were a product of capitalism. Please do make me as irrational as you need to in order to preserve your own beliefs. I really don't mind.

As for your accusation that I am racist, it is despicable how you twisted my words; I said EVEN THE MINORITIES THAT I AM FRIENDS WITH seek predominantly white communities, because communities that are predominantly minorities are pretty much barbaric, violent, and corrupt.

I certainly hope you will believe that the last thing you need is help from me when it comes to painting yourself as anything. You make your points succinctly. I may not agree with them, but you are tenacious and convicted and that should applauded no matter what your beliefs.

Im a big fan of a lot of foreign cultures, and well educated in a number of them, and I embrace those that further intellect, truth, and enlightenment, while avoiding and abhorring those whose followers choose to act like animals. They have a right to live how they choose; I have a right to hate any cultural that reduces mankind to beasts. As any sane man would.

I don't think anyone could disagree with any of that, except maybe the 'right' to hate, when you seem so determined to embrace 'enlightenment.'
Silly me, I thought those two were pretty much mutually exclusive.

Thanks for the effort you have put in thus far into the discussion. I really appreciate it.

Originally posted by saturnine_sweet
reply to post by KSPigpen

 

Those people, THEM, who choose to live like animals, MAKE THAT CHOICE FOR THEMSELVES, and deserve whatever comes to them for it.

"Dehumanization is the process by which members of a group of people assert the "inferiority" of another group through subtle or overt acts or statements. Dehumanization may be directed by an organization (such as a state) or may be the composite of individual sentiments and actions, as with some types of de facto racism."

source:en.wikipedia.org...

I used the term "ethically challenged" for you, but the wiki definition seems to fit better.

With much love (of course),

N

reply to post by Nichiren


I don't have to dehumanize them, they do it to themselves. There's this great concept called personal responsibility. They are responsible for their choices to behanve like animals. Im not talking about a group based on physical traits, Im talking about a group based on their actions. That they have common physical traits is simply a useful identifier. Like say...when the woman called the police on Mr. Gates from Harvard. It kind of made sense to describe him as black, yet some people called her racist for that. Insane.

Originally posted by KSPigpen
reply to post by saturnine_sweet

 

Please DO point out where your words have been misquoted. That's a fairly serious accusation. You have not edited your posts, so please go through them and compare where I have quoted you and explain where you have been 'misquoted.' You can level whatever accusations you like, from the lack of an ability to 'comprehend' your statements, to 'misquoting' or or 'misinterpreting' your words. It really doesn't matter. If you are using a different version of the English language, please disclose that, so that I may learn the 'real' meanings of the words that you have used, rather than my apparently lacking interpretation of the 'standard' version of English.

Questioning one's ability to comprehend your words does not make them any more valid. What makes them valid is something to substantiate your claims.

I did that in the last post, but I guess you failed to discern that?

That is as clear as the rather elongated nose on my face. The resentment (a mild form of hatred, perhaps) was the result of slaves being freed (from slave OWNERS) with no compensation. Yeah, I get it. Slave owners were pissed because someone told their slaves they could be free and they didn't 'pay' the slave owners for it. The slave owners lost their assets (again capitalism) and didn't get compensation. So they got mad, their children got to hear how mad they were, as did their grandkids. The hatred, or perceived injustice was passed down to, what do you know, some white people that are alive today. Funny how that works. Pretty clear.

Not sure what the point of that reply was, except I should point out that having assets is not the domain of capitalism alone. (Rivers and rain, AGAIN.)

Uh, no. Someone came along and told them that the HUMAN BEINGS they 'owned' were no longer theirs.

Actually, they owned labor equal to the freedom price of the slave. Again, you show an utter lack of comprehension of the economic system of the day.

That really isn't even the issue. The issue is the CONNECTION between the slave owners using slaves as assets in a capitalistic system. Their anger at the loss of these assets, passed through generations, is what we get to see today through the eyes of militant racists...on BOTH sides of the coin. Blacks are just as 'guilty' of perpetuating the hate as whites, but without slavery, within the confines of that capitalistic system, that hate wouldn't exist, for the reasons that it does.

Not really. Slavery is not exclusive to capitalism, and anger at a loss of assets without compensation is not exclusive to capitalism. I begin to think that you consider ownership of anything by an individual as wrong and "evil capitalism!"

I hear you. Because I am unable to see things the way YOU interpret them, I am unable of having a 'coherent discussion.' It's a complete and udder fantasy that slaves were assets. A complete fantasy that they were OWNED by private individuals and a complete fantasy that they were used in the production of other assets. You have yet, in all of your pages worth of responses proven that to not be the case. If they were indeed assets, used for the production of other assets, and were owned by private individuals, they were a product of capitalism. Please do make me as irrational as you need to in order to preserve your own beliefs. I really don't mind.

Honestly, that pretty much speaks for itself. You made my point. I wasn't talking about interpretations; I was talking about facts. I have pointed out multiple times, btw, that their being assets has nothing to do with capitalism, and, as i just stated, their labor vs a debt was what the slave owners owned, essentially.
See...there were myriad ways to become a slave, but two very prominent ones went like this:

There was a battle, and you were on the losing side. Rather than slaughtering you, your enemy would enslave you, giving you life in return for labor. The amount of labor varied according to instance, from a lifetime to until a certain monetary and/or production quota was met. Me, I'd have taken slavery over slaughter, all in all.

The other common way was through debt accumulation. In some manner, which could be most anything, really, one would incur a debt and would be unable to repay it. In such instances, in many cultures, the person who could not repay their debt would become a slave (or indentured servant.) They would remain so until their freedom price, aka, the price of the debt which they had incurred, was met.

Very rarely did anyone go "round up some negros in the wild" and enslave them, as so many ill-educated people seem to think these days, and those who did were often shunned, when not prosecuted. (It was, in fact, illegal to do so, in many cultures, though it was more likely to be...disposed of...by a rival slave trader for doing that, than to find your way to the justice of the law. It was indeed a brutal and disgusting industry...but, as labor drives ALL economies, it was also lucrative.)

I certainly hope you will believe that the last thing you need is help from me when it comes to painting yourself as anything. You make your points succinctly. I may not agree with them, but you are tenacious and convicted and that should applauded no matter what your beliefs.

All I have to say here is go look up crime statistics, and don't hurt yourself when you fall off of your pseudo-intellectual high horse.

I don't think anyone could disagree with any of that, except maybe the 'right' to hate, when you seem so determined to embrace 'enlightenment.'
Silly me, I thought those two were pretty much mutually exclusive.

Thanks for the effort you have put in thus far into the discussion. I really appreciate it.

How is the embracing vile, animalistic behavior and degradation of the higher aspects of man enlightenment? OOOOhhh wait...you're talking liberal neo-enlightenment, aka, love and idealism in the absence of truth and reality. No, sorry, I don't need any of that. I prefer enlightenment through knowledge and truth, and through embracing the things that bring mankind closer to divinity, while abhorring those things that bring mankind down to the level of animals.

Silly me.

Originally posted by KSPigpen

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal
Capitalism is an economic system which permits voluntary goods exchange between parties and protects the involved parties through contract enforcement. To call this racist only proves that you're .. an idiot.

Thanks for bring some top notch discussion and an eye-opening opinion to the table. I appreciate your input.

The only thing eye-opening here is that no one seems to care that you've mislabeled your thread. This thread has about as much to do with capitalism as Pat Buchanan does with satanism.

1) Socialism is a more effective form of Feudalism than Capitalism. All are ism's but the Cap and Soc are just evolved forms of the Feu. And Feudalism emerged in China. The serfs worked 8 plots of land taxed, tithed to and owned by the land lord who lived in the inner plot. Pray tell, how is Walmart realllllllllly any different. And when the government runs Walmart well.... the pool of land lords just got smaller... same game.

2) Money and power trump race issues. Really its not the color of the slaves that are at issue but doubling the profits in the next quarter. I quote a Black History teacher "Its all about slavery, always has been and we're all slaves now." And he meant the US whites too... He loved to show his classes the Matrix...

3) Locke was asked by his law firm to justify slavery. His answer "the black has the potential to work and since he does not utilize this potential, if I utilize it then this establishes an ownership right." How lovely that this became the basis of American and British property law. And now the issue of working vs. not working is at hand over socialized heath care for the US exponentially growing welfare populace.

Really we need a new paradigm...

Its incredible just to imagine how many problems, (money, power, hate, fear, racism, envy, etc.) affects the human civilization. The issue is not just each problem, but how each one can easily lead to/cause to the other, interact with each other and or all resulting in a never-ending cycle. These so called "problems" are extremely difficult to abolish.

I have a true feeling telling me that many past & ancient civilizations before us did truly exist at different points in time. When these civilizations reached their blooming/ prosperous periods, the same "problems" came about. Each civilization came to their peak point, in which a big issue presented itself such as overpopulation and furthermore big important decisions were taken. Call it a fork in the road with one way leading to a better positive future for all or the other way leading to a negative future.

It seems like people are predisposed to follow the same actions which ultimately leads to the destruction of their own civilizations through ignorance and wars. What can we do? How could all these "problems" be abolished for good? Only one thing comes to mind. A Great and Powerful Cataclysm that will shake this world to its core

Think of racism as a disease, an especially tenacious, especially virulent one. Think of it as a sort of leprosy of the soul. To ignore a racist sentiment overheard in a public setting is to ignore a symptom of this dangerous disease. To say ‘that ethnic slur doesn’t affect me, since I am not the target’ is to say ‘that person with untreated leprosy coughing on the communal silverware doesn’t affect me, as I am using chopsticks.’ You know what? You’re right. It doesn’t affect you… yet. No one is born a racist, just as no one is born a leper. Like leprosy, racism takes a long, long time to inculcate, but once it takes hold is hideously deforming. Like leprosy, racism can with great difficulty be arrested, but the damage done is irreversible. posted by MercerMachine at 10:33 AM 3 Comments: Anonymous Mark said...

Excellent post, racism is nothing short of a disease of the soul. Frankly, I feel racism to be tied to one of the predominant facets of human nature - the human ego. Racism is founded from a yearning to be superior to other beings, to exert dominance and power over others that we believe different from us. That's the exact same basis to why we deem ourselves, the homo sapiens, as superior to any other living organism in our planet. Who are we to judge, to create the gauge of what is to be considered a superior being?

Appearance is usually the first characteristic we consider. Those who are insecure of their own identity feel a need to justify it by condemning people of a dissimilar appearance, of which skin colour is the most apparent.

It is tragic that for all of our advances in science, in the arts and humanities, in religion and the philosophy of life, we still feel the need to justify our existence by exerting some form of misguided dominance on others.

somethingstickythiswaycomes.blogspot.com...

our government is using racism as a means to destroy this country from within and is doing an excellent job. take a look at www.abovetopsecret.com... wherein it states:

Mark Lloyd, who has suggested "white people" step down from positions of power to allow "more people of color, gays" and "other More..people" to take those positions

www.wnd.com...

history is repeating using the same ace in the hole.................self.

until we have agapa love we will never succeed.

I appreciate all the time and effort you put into this discussion. You make many valid points. I do have to say that I am bone tired of hearing people speak about Racism. Just when you think relations are getting better somebody has to turn the heat up on the ol pot and get the resentment and hatred bubbling over again on all sides. There are many ignorant people out there with tiny minds and overactive emotions. Skin heads, New black panther party, black separatists, neo confederates, neo nazis, trailer trash to name a few. Fear is the motivation of these people. Cowardice is their banner and preying on the weak minded is their tool in trade for recruiting new members. What I want to know is HOW DO WE END IT? I have friends from all over the world. I dislike individuals, not races of people. I'm not going to say I have never felt hate for anyone. I am human. I need to know when mankind is going to put this stupidity behind us. How many subscribers to this site purchase nike products? That is one point I was trying to make. Even when people are aware of it they look the other way. When you see it you have to come down hard. When people hold a migrant against their will as a servant they should not be fined. They should be jailed for ten times the length of time they held that person captive. That would send a message out to all who would consider such a thing. As for the debates going on now about reparations for slavery in America. Affirmative action is, by definition, reparations. Why beat a dead horse??? One of my favorite people in the world once said" I have never been a slave and I never owned one so shut the Bleep up already" George Carlin( the Man). If i come across someone abusing another person or an animal I do not hesitate to step up to the plate. If people did more than talk a good talk and actually walked a good walk how much time we would have to dig deep into the real conspiracies. Civilzation has, from It's inception, built itself up on the backs of those less fortunate. Just a fact. Almost seven billion people inhabit this planet. Less than half a million control everything. When are people going to wake up and realize we can " as Mrs Reagan once said" Just say no!